Shady's value to the Bills...

[John from Riverside]

IMO based on similarity in styles, JW will be Shady's backup if he gets hurt, Wilder will back up Karlos. Not sure what happens will gillislee. But they need him for camp. I live our RB group.

 

And yes, shady is curiously underrated by many Bills fans. I have to think it's his contract that is the biggest factor there. During the season, IMO the offense looked significantly better with him than without him. And he makes some plays that are jaw dropping and rare.

To me it seems WIlder would be odd man out....Gillislee was pretty good last year when his number was called?

[Kirby Jackson]

To me it seems WIlder would be odd man out....Gillislee was pretty good last year when his number was called?

I agree with this as well. Wilder has an uphill battle.

[BaaadThingsMan]

I agree with the posters above also, Jonathan Williams will be the next feature back IMO. I suspect Shady can hold him off a couple years though if healthy and change some opinions of him along the way. Winning cures everything. Ah yes, winning. They'll have to start doing that first.

[JohnC]

I haven't read the whole thread but am starting to think that Shady is the most underrated player on the team amongst the fans. He was voted the 5th best back in the NFL per the players for 2016 (as per the top 100). He was dynamic last year when healthy and led the #1 rushing offense in the NFL. He is capable of making plays that NO other back in the NFL can make (see the cut against Houston). This guy is a perennial Pro Bowl player that has a legitimate chance of one day ending up in the HOF. I expect another 2-3 good years out of him. We are lucky to have this difference maker in the backfield.

There is a difference between being a good player and a playmaker. Excluding the qb Watkins and McCoy are the two big playmakers that not only make big plays but are players in which the defenses have to account for. So even when they don't have the ball because they are a threat the defenses have to account for them. Their value most often goes beyond their individual stats because their presence elevates the play of the other players on the unit.

[Kirby Jackson]

There is a difference between being a good player and a playmaker. Excluding the qb Watkins and McCoy are the two big playmakers that not only make big plays but are players in which the defenses have to account for. So even when they don't have the ball because they are a threat the defenses have to account for them. Their value most often goes beyond their individual stats because their presence elevates the play of the other players on the unit.

Excellent point!!

 

The strange part is the next guy on the list maybe Listenbee. It isn't because he is going to make a lot of plays but because he is capable of making "special" plays.

[JohnC]

Excellent point!!

 

The strange part is the next guy on the list maybe Listenbee. It isn't because he is going to make a lot of plays but because he is capable of making "special" plays.

I'm not a fan of DeSean Jackson for the Redskins. He is too much of a temperamental diva for me. But when he is on the field and running deep vertical routes it opens up the field for everyone else. The major beneficiary of his vertical threat is the TE, Jordan Reed, who is one of the best route running TEs in the game. The Redskins are qualitatively different (better) offense with Jackson in the lineup whether he is getting the ball or not.

 

Karlos Williams by himself is a solid player. Rotating with McCoy he becomes a very good player. Or another way of saying it is that by being part of the tandem each player is more effective.

 

My basic point again is that there are a limited number of players whose mere presence on the field affect the unit. That type of player is not readily available. The Bills with McCoy and Watkins have two players who fall in that lofty category.

Edited May 27, 2016 by JohnC

[K-9]

So he's worth 4.88% of this year's cap, then?

 

Is 4.88 our new 3.5?

[3rdand12]

I'm not a fan of DeSean Jackson for the Redskins. He is too much of a temperamental diva for me. But when he is on the field and running deep vertical routes it opens up the field for everyone else. The major beneficiary of his vertical threat is the TE, Jordan Reed, who is one of the best route running TEs in the game. The Redskins are qualitatively different (better) offense with Jackson in the lineup wither he is getting the ball or not.

 

Karlos Williams by himself is a solid player. Rotating with McCoy he becomes a very good player. Or another way of saying it is that by being part of the tandem each player is more effective.

 

My basic point again is that there are a limited number of players whose mere presence on the field affect the unit. That type of player is not readily available. The Bills with McCoy and Watkins have two players who fall in that lofty category.

Even though it was not apparent last year, Clay falls into the category also. Harvin was too.

The rotation of running backs will keep defenses rather honest i might guess.

and McCoy is something DCs are always aware of.

But that is a drum i have been beating for quite awhile i guess. The Threat

[JohnC]

Even though it was not apparent last year, Clay falls into the category also. Harvin was too.

The rotation of running backs will keep defenses rather honest i might guess.

and McCoy is something DCs are always aware of.

But that is a drum i have been beating for quite awhile i guess. The Threat

I like Clay a lot. He was a productive receiver for us. But I don't put him in the playmaker category where his mere presence opens up room for other players. If Harvin would have been more durable he would be the type of player who could be considered a playmaker and influence how the defense plays. There was a short period of time in the beginning of the season where Harvin was dynamic. But he was plagued with injuries that limited his game.

[BADOLBILZ]

I haven't read the whole thread but am starting to think that Shady is the most underrated player on the team amongst the fans. He was voted the 5th best back in the NFL per the players for 2016 (as per the top 100). He was dynamic last year when healthy and led the #1 rushing offense in the NFL. He is capable of making plays that NO other back in the NFL can make (see the cut against Houston). This guy is a perennial Pro Bowl player that has a legitimate chance of one day ending up in the HOF. I expect another 2-3 good years out of him. We are lucky to have this difference maker in the backfield.

 

 

The main reason I am so critical of McCoy is because the things that have prevented him from being better on a per-play basis in the past 2 seasons isn't injuries.......it's decision making.

 

And to his credit he ADMITS it rather than senselessly deny it like so many of the contrarians in this and other Shady threads.

 

HE KNOWS that he should be at least making the same plays that the converted safety and the street free agent that are backing him up are making.

 

As players get older they usually need to adapt their game.......he's not done it......that's why he had the fewest yards per play of any qualifying player in the NFL in 2014........and why he got the bum's rush from Philly because he wasn't open to adapting.

 

He came to Buffalo defiant.......and then despite the vehement claims of some here......he got humbled.

 

Perhaps the disgusting slice of pie he was served in Philly was just the embarrassment he needed to realize maybe his coaches know how to use him better than he does.

 

After seeing what we saw from Roman's ground attack......there is no excuse for an "explosive" "potential HOF" lead back to not rush for 5+ ypa and put up around 10 TD's.

 

But as for the idea that he is "underrated" by Bills fans........actually I think most Bills fans are unaware of just how much more effective the other backs were........and they buy into the hype.

 

If anything he basically got a pass from Bills fans last year who were far more pre-occupied with Rex and the appalling decline of the defense at his hand.

 

I mean if you lead the league in a category like rushing just how concerned is the average fan going to be about the performance of one guy at a position where 3-4 backs are getting carries?

[Deranged Rhino]

 

 

The main reason I am so critical of McCoy is because the things that have prevented him from being better on a per-play basis in the past 2 seasons isn't injuries.......it's decision making.

 

And to his credit he ADMITS it rather than senselessly deny it like so many of the contrarians in this and other Shady threads.

 

HE KNOWS that he should be at least making the same plays that the converted safety and the street free agent that are backing him up are making.

 

As players get older they usually need to adapt their game.......he's not done it......that's why he had the fewest yards per play of any qualifying player in the NFL in 2014........and why he got the bum's rush from Philly because he wasn't open to adapting.

 

He came to Buffalo defiant.......and then despite the vehement claims of some here......he got humbled.

 

Perhaps the disgusting slice of pie he was served in Philly was just the embarrassment he needed to realize maybe his coaches know how to use him better than he does.

 

After seeing what we saw from Roman's ground attack......there is no excuse for an "explosive" "potential HOF" lead back to not rush for 5+ ypa and put up around 10 TD's.

 

But as for the idea that he is "underrated" by Bills fans........actually I think most Bills fans are unaware of just how much more effective the other backs were........and they buy into the hype.

 

If anything he basically got a pass from Bills fans last year who were far more pre-occupied with Rex and the appalling decline of the defense at his hand.

 

I mean if you lead the league in a category like rushing just how concerned is the average fan going to be about the performance of one guy at a position where 3-4 backs are getting carries?

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

The main reason I am so critical of McCoy is because the things that have prevented him from being better on a per-play basis in the past 2 seasons isn't injuries.......it's decision making.

 

And to his credit he ADMITS it rather than senselessly deny it like so many of the contrarians in this and other Shady threads.

 

HE KNOWS that he should be at least making the same plays that the converted safety and the street free agent that are backing him up are making.

 

As players get older they usually need to adapt their game.......he's not done it......that's why he had the fewest yards per play of any qualifying player in the NFL in 2014........and why he got the bum's rush from Philly because he wasn't open to adapting.

 

He came to Buffalo defiant.......and then despite the vehement claims of some here......he got humbled.

 

Perhaps the disgusting slice of pie he was served in Philly was just the embarrassment he needed to realize maybe his coaches know how to use him better than he does.

 

After seeing what we saw from Roman's ground attack......there is no excuse for an "explosive" "potential HOF" lead back to not rush for 5+ ypa and put up around 10 TD's.

 

But as for the idea that he is "underrated" by Bills fans........actually I think most Bills fans are unaware of just how much more effective the other backs were........and they buy into the hype.

 

If anything he basically got a pass from Bills fans last year who were far more pre-occupied with Rex and the appalling decline of the defense at his hand.

 

I mean if you lead the league in a category like rushing just how concerned is the average fan going to be about the performance of one guy at a position where 3-4 backs are getting carries?

We all know where you stand on Shady but I don't agree. The stretch of the season when he was healthy, he was great. He is a complete back, a guy that you have to game plan for and a guy that makes something out of nothing.

 

As far as yards per attempt Adrian Peterson was at 4.5 and McCoy 4.4. McCoy was 6th in the league in yards per game in 2015 and played with another young back they tried to get some touches. In addition his QB rushed for mores yards per game than any other QB. McCoy didn't have the same touches as some of the other top backs.

 

He did this in a run 1st offense where everyone game plans to control the Bills' running game. The Bills (and McCoy) were able to run the ball effectively when everyone in the stadium knew that they were running it. Your post and opinion is the exact reason that I say that he is underrated amongst Bills fans.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Kirby Jackson

[boyst]

 

Don't expect it to. It's just another opinion for consideration from an additional source.

I wish more people saw you say this. I almost missed it. People think you don't put out all links

[Mr. WEO]

I haven't read the whole thread but am starting to think that Shady is the most underrated player on the team amongst the fans. He was voted the 5th best back in the NFL per the players for 2016 (as per the top 100). He was dynamic last year when healthy and led the #1 rushing offense in the NFL. He is capable of making plays that NO other back in the NFL can make (see the cut against Houston). This guy is a perennial Pro Bowl player that has a legitimate chance of one day ending up in the HOF. I expect another 2-3 good years out of him. We are lucky to have this difference maker in the backfield.

 

 

If he's only got 2-3 good years left in him (likely, given he's 7 seasons in), there's little chance he's ever a HOF'er. Just too many guys ahead of him that also have little or no chance.

 

Also, he's clearly not under rated by the fans.....

[BADOLBILZ]

We all know where you stand on Shady but I don't agree. The stretch of the season when he was healthy, he was great. He is a complete back, a guy that you have to game plan for and a guy that makes something out of nothing.

 

As far as yards per attempt Adrian Peterson was at 4.5 and McCoy 4.4. McCoy was 6th in the league in yards per game in 2015 and played with another young back they tried to get some touches. In addition his QB rushed for mores yards per game than any other QB. McCoy didn't have the same touches as some of the other top backs.

 

He did this in a run 1st offense where everyone game plans to control the Bills' running game. The Bills (and McCoy) were able to run the ball effectively when everyone in the stadium knew that they were running it. Your post and opinion is the exact reason that I say that he is underrated amongst Bills fans.

 

 

This is where it helps to have been following the dialogue.

 

You KNOW that 4.5 yards per rush from a hammer like Marshawn or Peterson is worth A LOT more than similar yards per rush from a finesse scat back...........why even try to bring that into the argument?

 

Those guys live in the middle of the field and wear down defenses. It's silly to equate their yards per carry to that of McCoy.......it shouldn't even be close.

 

Look at the top of the rushing stats..........I believe like 8 of the top 10 rushers were 230# physical backs.

 

Defenses have gotten smaller and faster in response to the rules favoring the passing game.......so now offenses use big backs to wear the little defenders down.

 

Like the Bills, for instance. Everybody in that RB group except Shady is big and physical.

 

Shady isn't a great receiver but what he can do in the passing game is mostly negated by defenses no longer employing lumbering linebackers to cover RB's.

 

The guys they are putting out there now can cover McCoy.

 

Look back at the second NE game where Shady dropped a critical, perfectly delivered pass in the end zone.

 

He dropped it because he bobbled the catch and the defender was right there to take swat the bobbled ball away.

 

That is the difference in defenses in the last 5 years.......the margin for error for RB's in the pass game is very small now......catch it clean and in stride or you aren't going to make the play.

 

But where it really shows up is when the quicker defenders cut him off as he runs sideways.

 

This is why he just can't seem to get those easy, long TD dashes along the sideline that he is looking for.

 

He's been a hard-head about it........the yards are INSIDE in this offense.....as they were in Chip's offense.......that's how the run game works NOW!

 

He can't outrun these dudes.......his best chance is sticking his foot in the ground......make a move or two in traffic and get vertical.

 

Karlos and Gillislee can do it so there is no reason that such a highly regarded and handsomely paid back can't also get north and south.

 

He talks as if it's finally sinking in.......but we shall see.

 

In the meantime, the fact that he only produces yards per carry like one of the pounders of the league while delivering none of the punishment that is so coveted by offenses in today's game is the main reason why I say his production is so hollow.

 

I know Shady had a long stretch of games were he put up 100 yards from scrimmage.........but was that stretch of the season where he was healthy the best offensive portion of the season for the Bills?

 

Consider for a moment that maybe he was capable of much MORE than a high of 112 yards rushing in a game in this offense.....and perhaps the offensive results in those games should have been better.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

This is where it helps to have been following the dialogue.

 

You KNOW that 4.5 yards per rush from a hammer like Marshawn or Peterson is worth A LOT more than similar yards per rush from a finesse scat back...........why even try to bring that into the argument?

 

Those guys live in the middle of the field and wear down defenses. It's silly to equate their yards per carry to that of McCoy.......it shouldn't even be close.

 

Look at the top of the rushing stats..........I believe like 8 of the top 10 rushers were 230# physical backs.

 

Defenses have gotten smaller and faster in response to the rules favoring the passing game.......so now offenses use big backs to wear the little defenders down.

 

Like the Bills, for instance. Everybody in that RB group except Shady is big and physical.

 

Shady isn't a great receiver but what he can do in the passing game is mostly negated by defenses no longer employing lumbering linebackers to cover RB's.

 

The guys they are putting out there now can cover McCoy.

 

Look back at the second NE game where Shady dropped a critical, perfectly delivered pass in the end zone.

 

He dropped it because he bobbled the catch and the defender was right there to take swat the bobbled ball away.

 

That is the difference in defenses in the last 5 years.......the margin for error for RB's in the pass game is very small now......catch it clean and in stride or you aren't going to make the play.

 

But where it really shows up is when the quicker defenders cut him off as he runs sideways.

 

This is why he just can't seem to get those easy, long TD dashes along the sideline that he is looking for.

 

He's been a hard-head about it........the yards are INSIDE in this offense.....as they were in Chip's offense.......that's how the run game works NOW!

 

He can't outrun these dudes.......his best chance is sticking his foot in the ground......make a move or two in traffic and get vertical.

 

Karlos and Gillislee can do it so there is no reason that such a highly regarded and handsomely paid back can't also get north and south.

 

He talks as if it's finally sinking in.......but we shall see.

 

In the meantime, the fact that he only produces yards per carry like one of the pounders of the league while delivering none of the punishment that is so coveted by offenses in today's game is the main reason why I say his production is so hollow.

 

I know Shady had a long stretch of games were he put up 100 yards from scrimmage.........but was that stretch of the season where he was healthy the best offensive portion of the season for the Bills?

 

Consider for a moment that maybe he was capable of much MORE than a high of 112 yards rushing in a game in this offense.....and perhaps the offensive results in those games should have been better.

They had the number one rushing offense in the league!! Apparently defenses were getting worn down. He didn't need to be a "hammer" to get that done. He was 6th in YPG and 8th in rushes per game.

 

When he was healthy was the best stretch offensively from what I remember. I remember Gillislee & Karlos playing well but neither great without Shady. The Bills running attack was not the same at all in the 4 games that he missed. The defensive game plan changed as well. Teams fear him. It's odd that I'm defending a guy that the players put as the 69th best player in the NFL heading into next year? We are acting like Mike Gilislee (whom I like) can do the same thing.

[BADOLBILZ]

They had the number one rushing offense in the league!! Apparently defenses were getting worn down. He didn't need to be a "hammer" to get that done. He was 6th in YPG and 8th in rushes per game.

 

When he was healthy was the best stretch offensively from what I remember. I remember Gillislee & Karlos playing well but neither great without Shady. The Bills running attack was not the same at all in the 4 games that he missed. The defensive game plan changed as well. Teams fear him. It's odd that I'm defending a guy that the players put as the 69th best player in the NFL heading into next year? We are acting like Mike Gilislee (whom I like) can do the same thing.

 

The best offensive stretch of the season was Indy/NE/Miami...when Shady was gimpy.

 

They lead the league in rushing and didn't have a 1,000 yard back.

 

What does that tell you?

 

That maybe much of the yardage was gained by two nobody RB's and a QB?

 

Of those 4 Shady had by far the lowest yards per rush.

 

The idea that they didn't run the ball well with just Karlos and/or Gillislee is nonsense based off of one game where Karlos started versus the Giants.

 

We later found out that he suffered a concussion in that game that caused him to miss a month.......but still.......after that all season all we heard from fans who were apparently underrating Shady was that they couldn't run the ball without him.

 

Then after a dismal performance in the first half of the Washington game Shady got injured and those guys proceeded to be purdy good the rest of the season.

 

KW then averaged 5.2 ypr with 2 TD's in his absence and Gillislee 5.5 ypr and also 2 TD's.

 

And the team outplayed Washington, Dallas and NYJ from the moment Shady got hurt.

 

I know you probably have made up your mind regardless of the stats or actual plays that illustrate my points and aren't open to discussion on the subject........but facts are facts.

 

I don't care who votes for who in whatever beauty pageant......and I am a bit surprised that you do......but I am used to this.

 

The ire I have drawn for my takes on Shady pale in comparison to the hate mail I got for pointing out the things that were limiting to and were going to sink the careers of SJ13 and CJ Spiller, for example.

 

I will say this though........I bashed Eric Wood for poor play for two seasons and criticized him for his lack of durability prior to that and he has bounced back and played well.

 

He is an example of a guy who has worked hard to figure out how NOT to be hurt all the time.....specifically by no longer anchoring like he did when he snapped his leg and later injured a knee.........and he's learned how to make the plays he needs to even when he is overmatched.......which is often in this new NFL loaded with great DT talent.

 

Guys like Sammy and Shady need to follow suit respectively.

 

I cut Sammy slack because he's young. Not so for Shady.

 

To whom much is given.

Edited May 28, 2016 by #BADOL

[Maury Ballstein]

Lol at the "hammer" Rb theorem is needed again.

 

Barry Sanders, Thurman Thomas, McCoy type rb's aren't real.

 

Gilleslie's #1 fan is going HAM again.

 

Shadys the best back on our team by a country mile.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Ryan L Billz

[Big C]

Roman's go-to play for us this year was a sweep. It wasn't up the middle at all.

[BADOLBILZ]

Roman's go-to play for us this year was a sweep. It wasn't up the middle at all.

 

 

You are very observant........was water wet last year?