RD 4, Pick 139: QB Cardale Jones, Ohio State

[thebandit27]

 

I thought we did OK with handling pass rushers but was far and away from being a dominant offensive line. 10th fewest QB hits allowed? Tyrod had nothing to do with that? LOL. If we had a "classic pocket passer" back there, that number would've been a lot higher.

 

We weren't that good on the right side of the line and if you're OK with Henderson and Kouandjio anchoring the right side thats good I guess.

 

In terms of being from an FCS school. Could care less if you can play.

 

I'm sure Tyrod had an effect on the number of hits; that's not the point. I don't think it'd be prudent to write off the fact that the team had the best running game in the league and was generally adequate in pass protection simply because the QB can scramble. The other side of the coin is that Tyrod had the longest average time-to-throw of any starting QB in the league; he bears at least a decent portion of the responsibility for QB pressures.

 

I actually didn't say that I'm okay with Henderson/Kouandjio/Mills, and I've actually advocated for trying to make a trade for Anthony Davis. My point is simply that a 4th round RT is hardly a lock to compete for a job, and even if he wins one, he's not going to change the fortunes of your franchise for the next decade. A QB, on the other had, could.

 

I agree regarding whether or not the guy can play, but your point to me was that Haeg was a guy you'd have targeted in the 4th round to compete for a starting role. I don't expect any 4th round OT to win a starting job, let alone a guy that faced FCS competition. Pass rushers in the NFL are a massive step up from what the best college programs face on a weekly basis; asking a guy to make the jump from FCS to starting against Terrell Suggs and Elvis Dumervil in week 1 is asking for the moon IMO.

[HT02]

I totally disagree. Tyrod is the QB no matter what this year. If he gets injured it is EJ for the rest of the year. He was always going to be the #2.

 

What the Bills did is took the guy that has a chance to be great. They doubled down on the position. If they would have taken Hogan or another solid, smart QB they wouldn't have been trying to answer the franchise QB issue. They would have been trying to find a long-term #2. They did the opposite and swung for the fences. They drafted a guy that could end up as the best QB in this class. He may never amount to anything but his ceiling is extremely high. If Tyrod doesn't work out (which I strongly believe he will) you weren't replacing him with a Kevin Hogan type; you were going to be looking again for the long-term guy.

I agree that Tyrod is the QB this year sink or swim, what I meant was that if Tyrod doesn't continue his development this year and they decide to let him go via free agency what is plan b? Jones next year? Most expert believe he is three years away from being a starting NFL QB. He didn't play much at OSU and the he is far from certain to pan out. Big upside but more likely to be a washout, Hogan would have been plan b in the event Tyrod isn't the man.

So, what specifically would your dream draft/FA have looked like with regards to the QB position?

I would rather they had drafted Hogan, Lynch or Conner Cook.

[Beerball]

If you bothered to read any of my hundreds of posts on this, I've repeatedly said I wouldn't have touched any of the QBs in this year's draft outside of POSSIBLY Lynch or Wentz and I still don't think either was worth trading up for. I wouldn't have minded Cardale in the 6th or 7th round. 4th? We could've found someone better at that spot than a "work in progress" QB.

 

And if you bothered to read my previous post, than call me a negative person, I named about 3 or 4 offensive lineman that we could've used at the RT position.

 

This goes to what eball had to say...LOL. Funny

 

You're very touchy. I've asked you some questions, don't think I've made it personal at all, but, I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm sorry for not calling you a negative person but having you believe that I did.

 

What in the world makes you believe that I should remember, much less have read, something that you said about QBs? What makes you believe that your posts are so memorable? What makes you think that a guy who can't remember what he had for dinner yesterday would remember something you said days, weeks, months ago? A bit full of yourself, aren't you? You come in and carpet bomb a thread. You are asked questions and you get your undies in a wad? Grow the heck up.

 

So, you wouldn't touch a QB outside of the first 2 picks. I guess that's a strategy a team could follow. By your reasoning it would take 16 years for every team in the NFL to get a starter...of course with retirement, busts etc many would never find one. Are you a graduate of the Buddy Nix School of QB Gathering?

 

I would rather they had drafted Hogan, Lynch or Conner Cook.

Thanks for the response. My opinion only...hate Cook. Don't think Hogan stands a better chance than Jones to develop into an NFL QB. Would have taken a flyer on Lynch, but, IMO, there was no chance of the Bills grabbing him in the first. We needed immediate help on defense and our first 3 picks gave us that.

[Kirby Jackson]

I agree that Tyrod is the QB this year sink or swim, what I meant was that if Tyrod doesn't continue his development this year and they decide to let him go via free agency what is plan b? Jones next year? Most expert believe he is three years away from being a starting NFL QB. He didn't play much at OSU and the he is far from certain to pan out. Big upside but more likely to be a washout, Hogan would have been plan b in the event Tyrod isn't the man.

 

I would rather they had drafted Hogan, Lynch or Conner Cook.

I guess that is where we disagree. Hogan will never be a franchise guy so you are still like looking. Cardale is at least 2 years away IMO. Cardale may never be a franchise guy but he might be. The Bills took a guy that is all or nothing as opposed to a career back-up.

[JohnC]

 

This is a salient point--I do think, however, that they didn't want to give up the chance to[/b] have their pick of the litter, which I can understand.[/b]

If the Bills would have taken that aggressive qb stance in prior years maybe they wouldn't have boxed themselves in when Nix was ready to depart. It is not too difficult to understand why Nix felt pressure to make a move that year. In hindsight, it was a mistake because from a drafting standpoint they drafted someone much higher than his ranking. That is not something Ozziie Newsome and some of the more astute GMs would have done.

 

Buddy Nix said on a number of occasions that before he drafted a qb he wanted to upgrade the roster so the qb he selected would be in a better position to succeed. I understand his position but it was the wrong approach to take. The priority for any organization is to get that critical position addressed as soon as possible. It should be a constant search. That doesn't mean that you reach to fill that need as they did in the EJ draft year.

Edited May 10, 2016 by JohnC

[Maury Ballstein]

I guess that is where we disagree. Hogan will never be a franchise guy so you are still like looking. Cardale is at least 2 years away IMO. Cardale may never be a franchise guy but he might be. The Bills took a guy that is all or nothing as opposed to a career back-up.

This. Love the pick.

[Jauronimo]

 

LOL.

 

No young man. I would've drafted one of those lineman to compete for the starting RT position. Not to "develop" into one.

So if we simply change the narrative to say Cardale will be competing for a starting job this year, you'll shut up about it?

[Beerball]

So if we simply change the narrative to say Cardale will be competing for a starting job this year, you'll shut up about it?

No, read his hundreds of posts on this subject.

[YoloinOhio]

I guess that is where we disagree. Hogan will never be a franchise guy so you are still like looking. Cardale is at least 2 years away IMO. Cardale may never be a franchise guy but he might be. The Bills took a guy that is all or nothing as opposed to a career back-up.

right. Connor Cook looked like a deer in headlights when he played Alabama. He led his team to zero points on the biggest stage. Not even a field goal. Give me the guy who doesn't look like a deer in headlights when he's out there. He isn't perfect or polished yet but he's not scared of going out there, sizing up the defense, and using his natural talent to try to make plays. The rest can be coached. Edited May 10, 2016 by YoloinOhio

[mannc]

rGive me the guy who doesn't look like a deer in headlights when he's out there. He isn't perfect or polished yet but he's not scared of going out there, sizing up the defense, and using his natural talent to try to make plays. The rest can be coached.

Actually, Cardale made the Alabama D look like the proverbial deer in headlights, or a deer being confronted with a 12-gauge, if you prefer.😀

[3rdand12]

I totally disagree. Tyrod is the QB no matter what this year. If he gets injured it is EJ for the rest of the year. He was always going to be the #2.

 

What the Bills did is took the guy that has a chance to be great. They doubled down on the position. If they would have taken Hogan or another solid, smart QB they wouldn't have been trying to answer the franchise QB issue. They would have been trying to find a long-term #2. They did the opposite and swung for the fences. They drafted a guy that could end up as the best QB in this class. He may never amount to anything but his ceiling is extremely high. If Tyrod doesn't work out (which I strongly believe he will) you weren't replacing him with a Kevin Hogan type; you were going to be looking again for the long-term guy.

This is the deep view Kirby. And not unexpected coming from you.

 

If you follow the team and how they trend (kinda ) this was not unexpected as much as it was a damn fine plan come to fruition getting Jones.

 

The when and why are nicely aligned with what Bills are doing as an organization. Competence by Buffalo FO is still a bit scary to accept. Kirby has explained this quite eloquently.

 

I really thought about this draft and how many ways it might go. And i changed my mind as new information was shared with me , whether it be all the awesome media updates from our local information nuts, or the insight from those here he whom watch a ton of or even just a Team of College ball. And then the player by player opinions offered here balanced against what the Bills roster needs and might want.

 

all this learning had me asking for 3 Defensive players right off the bat , and a QB NOT before the 4th. And the Cardale pick is Exactly where my head was at.

Ps i thought they had a nice finish in the draft too. WR and DB were need picks. i would not have been surprised at Doctson , or Karl Joseph, and couple others.

 

Hel even the media guys have given Bills some a grades, when did that last happen?

 

I thought we did OK with handling pass rushers but was far and away from being a dominant offensive line. 10th fewest QB hits allowed? Tyrod had nothing to do with that? LOL. If we had a "classic pocket passer" back there, that number would've been a lot higher.

 

We weren't that good on the right side of the line and if you're OK with Henderson and Kouandjio anchoring the right side thats good I guess.

 

In terms of being from an FCS school. Could care less if you can play.

I wish we had a shot. I would have picked the C Kelly.

Not a ton of good grades for O lineman. Might have as much luck with UDFA there

[machine gun kelly]

I'm sure Tyrod had an effect on the number of hits; that's not the point. I don't think it'd be prudent to write off the fact that the team had the best running game in the league and was generally adequate in pass protection simply because the QB can scramble. The other side of the coin is that Tyrod had the longest average time-to-throw of any starting QB in the league; he bears at least a decent portion of the responsibility for QB pressures.

 

I actually didn't say that I'm okay with Henderson/Kouandjio/Mills, and I've actually advocated for trying to make a trade for Anthony Davis. My point is simply that a 4th round RT is hardly a lock to compete for a job, and even if he wins one, he's not going to change the fortunes of your franchise for the next decade. A QB, on the other had, could.

 

I agree regarding whether or not the guy can play, but your point to me was that Haeg was a guy you'd have targeted in the 4th round to compete for a starting role. I don't expect any 4th round OT to win a starting job, let alone a guy that faced FCS competition. Pass rushers in the NFL are a massive step up from what the best college programs face on a weekly basis; asking a guy to make the jump from FCS to starting against Terrell Suggs and Elvis Dumervil in week 1 is asking for the moon IMO.

Is that true Bandit. TT had the most time in the NFL to throw on average? I didn't know that and really speaks to the line.

[thebandit27]

Is that true Bandit. TT had the most time in the NFL to throw on average? I didn't know that and really speaks to the line.

He had the most of any starter through week 11, but I don't see final numbers listed anywhere

[YoloinOhio]

Is that true Bandit. TT had the most time in the NFL to throw on average? I didn't know that and really speaks to the line.

just judging from the number of times I would scream at the TV for him to *please throw the effing ball* -- yes

[FLFan]

just judging from the number of times I would scream at the TV for him to *please throw the effing ball* -- yes

This was exactly my impression as well. There is no question that TT's mobility helped the O line at times, but there were plenty of other times that escape routes were choked off and he was not able to read what to do with the ball. It goes both ways. I would love an upgrade at RT, but I think they will be adequate again, and I am fine with the selection of Jones with that pick over some long term tackle development project.

[Mikie2times]

right. Connor Cook looked like a deer in headlights when he played Alabama. He led his team to zero points on the biggest stage. Not even a field goal. Give me the guy who doesn't look like a deer in headlights when he's out there. He isn't perfect or polished yet but he's not scared of going out there, sizing up the defense, and using his natural talent to try to make plays. The rest can be coached

I love the Cardale pick and while indifferent toward Cook as far as us taking him, I think this is a very poor example. Cook was the Big 10 Championship Game MVP 2 times and the Rose Bowl MVP 1 time. He won every single championship game he started in and every single bowl game. The only game he did not win is the one you referenced.

[Rico]

What the organization did with the drafting of Cardale is do what they should have been doing in past drafts i.e. regularly select qb prospects (wherever in the draft) so that the quantity of qb prospects will from a statistical standpoint give you a better chance to find a good prospect. The most successful franchise in modern era, the Pats, takes that approach. If a qb prospect doesn't progress then they move on to the next prospect. They certainly are not debilitated because a qb doesn't work out. They just move on with their constant quest of searching for another qb to work with. The Packers also do that. They regularly draft qbs. If some of them show promise and they can't play them because they have Aaron Rogers then they trade the enticing prospect (asset) for a draft pick higher than where they selected the player.

 

It's obvious that Cardale Jones has physical tools. It's also obvious that he is a raw prospect. By bringing him in the fold the coaching staff will have a good grasp as to whether he is capable of developing into a franchise qb. If not, then do what the Pats and other teams do, bring in more prospects.

 

I not only liked the drafting of Cardale Jones but I especially liked where he was drafted. Whaley not only had a good draft but he also had a smart draft.

Yes, the best teams/GMs realize that "If a QB prospect doesn't progress, then you move on to the next prospect." You can be patient to a point, but by the time you're into year 2, you better start seeing improvement and certainly not regression, or you are just wasting a roster spot & everyone's time (i.e. DW with EJ). I don't care if Cardale isn't starting in 2017, but he does need to at least be looking the part and showing the potential to get there by then, or you move on.

[YoloinOhio]

I love the Cardale pick and while indifferent toward Cook as far as us taking him, I think this is a very poor example. Cook was the Big 10 Championship Game MVP 2 times and the Rose Bowl MVP 1 time. He won every single championship game he started in and every single bowl game. The only game he did not win is the one you referenced.

it was an example of where both QBs being discussed played the same team, the one with the best talent and coaches in the nation year in and year out, in the CFB playoffs, in back to back years.

 

Bowl games and big 10 stuff really is not as applicable, to me, in this case. Show me what you do vs the best. I actually always liked Cook's game, he was a good college player. But his failure in the playoffs was glaring. He wasn't good vs Iowa either. Jmo.

Edited May 11, 2016 by YoloinOhio

[Big C]

So was this a Whaley pick or a Buddy Nix pick?

Thank you for this post. This thread needed it and everyone ignored it.

[Mikie2times]

it was an example of where both QBs being discussed played the same team, the one with the best talent and coaches in the nation year in and year out, in the CFB playoffs, in back to back years.

 

Bowl games and big 10 stuff really is not as applicable, to me, in this case. Show me what you do vs the best. I actually always liked Cook's game, he was a good college player. But his failure in the playoffs was glaring. He wasn't good vs Iowa either. Jmo.

I don't know man. I know you have a level opinion and I assume you live in Ohio or at the least very familiar with Big Ten country, but this seems like reaching to cover another reach on saying Cook doesn't perform in big games. How can you marginalize the Big 10 Championship? Cook cost Ohio State a NC in 2013 and cost Iowa a potential NC in 2015. This is in addition to the biggest win in recent MSU history in the Rose Bowl against an elite Stanford defense. In order to even get to the game you're talking about you need to win these games, so while not important to you, I assure you they were very important to players and they were big games against great teams. What is your measure of talent? Alabama anytime they're a championship team? Everything is apples to apples, no differences at all between the 2015 Ohio State team vs the 2016 Michigan State team?

 

If you do live in Ohio, north of the border, everybody expected MSU to get killed by Alabama, not because Cook, because they had won so many close games all year and just didn't look like they could play at that level. State shouldn't even have been in that game. It was nothing like the 2015 Ohio State team that caught fire with a slew of NFL talent. I'm happy to have Cardale and like the value we got with him more than if we drafted Cook, then again I also like Cook. He throws guys open and let's his guys make plays on the ball without allowing a ton of picks. That's a rare quality. Cook is? Cardale is boom or bust. Both have intrigue, big games have no part of this discussion. If anything it's a + for both.

Edited May 11, 2016 by KzooMike