Beerball Posted May 10, 2016 Posted May 10, 2016 What I don't like about Cardale? product of Urban Meyer system (when has an Urban Meyer QB ever been great in the NFL). You do understand that Jones' failures in 2015 were due to the fact that Meyer forced him to play in his system, don't you? You do understand that Jones' successes in 2014 were due to the fact that Meyer didn't force him to play in his system, don't you?
HT02 Posted May 10, 2016 Posted May 10, 2016 Another fail? It's a 4th round pick. Its not the point of wasting a pick its that the Bills still don't have a good plan B if Tyrod doesn't pan out. So, you would trade a QB for Lawson? Ragland? Washington? Which one of those picks would you use to get your game ready backup QB? What player did you want the Bills to take with their round 4 compensatory pick? If Tyrod doesn't work out will it matter who is at LB?
Kirby Jackson Posted May 10, 2016 Posted May 10, 2016 Its not the point of wasting a pick its that the Bills still don't have a good plan B if Tyrod doesn't pan out. If Tyrod doesn't work out will it matter who is at LB? I totally disagree. Tyrod is the QB no matter what this year. If he gets injured it is EJ for the rest of the year. He was always going to be the #2. What the Bills did is took the guy that has a chance to be great. They doubled down on the position. If they would have taken Hogan or another solid, smart QB they wouldn't have been trying to answer the franchise QB issue. They would have been trying to find a long-term #2. They did the opposite and swung for the fences. They drafted a guy that could end up as the best QB in this class. He may never amount to anything but his ceiling is extremely high. If Tyrod doesn't work out (which I strongly believe he will) you weren't replacing him with a Kevin Hogan type; you were going to be looking again for the long-term guy.
Beerball Posted May 10, 2016 Posted May 10, 2016 If Tyrod doesn't work out will it matter who is at LB? So, what specifically would your dream draft/FA have looked like with regards to the QB position?
26CornerBlitz Posted May 10, 2016 Author Posted May 10, 2016 Patience a Necessity with QB Cardale Jones Despite leading Ohio State to a national title in 2014, Cardale Jones has limited on field experience. That means an ample amount of development and refinement lie ahead for the rookie quarterback.
starrymessenger Posted May 10, 2016 Posted May 10, 2016 I criticized Whaley's selection of EJ as soon as I saw him play. It was as though Bud Elliot's negative pre-draft evaluation materialized as a nightmare before my very eyes. EJs problems have been micro-analysed in great detail but from thirty thousand feet I think they can be summarized adequately by saying that EJ is simply not a natural thrower of the football. Of course this is a generalization but I think it captures the essence of all the technical descriptions. From what (admittedly) little I've seen of Jones, my impression is that he is very much a natural passer which, contrary to EJs case, bodes well for his ability to improve his mechanics (and therefore his short/medium depth accuracy) to the point where he can do more things well, or well enuf. So to me EJ and Jones are not at all the same guy. Sure they are both big, strong and athletic (tho I suspect Jones is the better athlete), but thats all you can really say about EJ and thats just not enuf if what we are talking about is a starting calibre NFL QB. Even as a late round pick Jones is a better prospect IMO than EJ ever was, and I think he was an excellent pick taken where he was. Odds are against his making it of course but he has a chance and as many have said if it ever comes together the Bills will have themselves a mega talent.
26CornerBlitz Posted May 10, 2016 Author Posted May 10, 2016 I criticized Whaley's selection of EJ as soon as I saw him play. It was as though Bud Elliot's negative pre-draft evaluation materialized as a nightmare before my very eyes. EJs problems have been micro-analysed in great detail but from thirty thousand feet I think they can be summarized adequately by saying that EJ is simply not a natural thrower of the football. Of course this is a generalization but I think it captures the essence of all the technical descriptions. From what (admittedly) little I've seen of Jones, my impression is that he is very much a natural passer which, contrary to EJs case, bodes well for his ability to improve his mechanics (and therefore his short/medium depth accuracy) to the point where he can do more things well, or well enuf. So to me EJ and Jones are not at all the same guy. Sure they are both big, strong and athletic (tho I suspect Jones is the better athlete), but thats all you can really say about EJ and thats just not enuf if what we are talking about is a starting calibre NFL QB. Even as a late round pick Jones is a better prospect IMO than EJ ever was, and I think he was an excellent pick taken where he was. Odds are against his making it of course but he has a chance and as many have said if it ever comes together the Bills will have themselves a mega talent. Buddy Nix says "Hello!"
starrymessenger Posted May 10, 2016 Posted May 10, 2016 Buddy Nix says "Hello!" Well ok but even so if Buddy wanted EJ in the first Doug should have said "no, please God no, Noooooo....". Instead he cravenly sold the pick to the world. Bills were hoping that EJ would improve and actually he did improve somewhat. He is certainly better today than he was when he was drafted. Maybe he can develop into a serviceable backup somewhere eventually. Thing is there was in fact a relatively low ceiling for EJ because of two things: technical/mechanical issues and inability to adjust to the speed of the pro game, the significantly greater abilities of pro defenders and the complexity of their various schemes all of which translated into an inability to process info quickly enuf to execute at the required level. I've got a feeling Jones has the natural ability as a passer to overcome his mechanical/technical problems (which EJ was never able to erase). The question that remains unanswered is his ability, or lack thereof, to adjust to the speed and complexity of the NFL. Time will tell.
26CornerBlitz Posted May 10, 2016 Author Posted May 10, 2016 Well ok but even so if Buddy wanted EJ in the first Doug should have said "no, please God no, Noooooo....". Instead he cravenly sold the pick to the world. Bills were hoping that EJ would improve and actually he did improve somewhat. He is certainly better today than he was when he was drafted. Maybe he can develop into a serviceable backup somewhere eventually. Thing is there was in fact a relatively low ceiling for EJ because of two things: technical/mechanical issues and inability to adjust to the speed of the pro game, the significantly greater abilities of pro defenders and the complexity of their various schemes all of which translated into an inability to process info quickly enuf to execute at the required level. I've got a feeling Jones has the natural ability as a passer to overcome his mechanical/technical problems (which EJ was never able to erase). The question that remains unanswered is his ability, or lack thereof, to adjust to the speed and complexity of the NFL. Time will tell. Seems to me Buddy Nix put the Bills in a box with his determination to find a "Franchise QB" before he departed OBD. I believe the scouting staff did what they thought was best given the circumstances they were given by their GM and they determined that EJ had the most long term potential among the QB candidates in that 2013 class. It's history now.....moving on!
QuoteTheRaven83 Posted May 10, 2016 Posted May 10, 2016 (edited) This is really kind of sad, since people have consistently been giving you an opportunity to be reasonable and logical and you've chosen to ignore them. LOL That's funny So, you would trade a QB for Lawson? Ragland? Washington? Which one of those picks would you use to get your game ready backup QB? What player did you want the Bills to take with their round 4 compensatory pick? If you bothered to read any of my hundreds of posts on this, I've repeatedly said I wouldn't have touched any of the QBs in this year's draft outside of POSSIBLY Lynch or Wentz and I still don't think either was worth trading up for. I wouldn't have minded Cardale in the 6th or 7th round. 4th? We could've found someone better at that spot than a "work in progress" QB. And if you bothered to read my previous post, than call me a negative person, I named about 3 or 4 offensive lineman that we could've used at the RT position. This goes to what eball had to say...LOL. Funny Edited May 10, 2016 by QuoteTheRaven83
thebandit27 Posted May 10, 2016 Posted May 10, 2016 LOL That's funny If you bothered to read any of my hundreds of posts on this, I've repeatedly said I wouldn't have touched any of the QBs in this year's draft outside of POSSIBLY Lynch or Wentz and I still don't think either was worth trading up for. I wouldn't have minded Cardale in the 6th or 7th round. 4th? We could've found someone better at that spot than a "work in progress" QB. And if you bothered to read my previous post, than call me a negative person, I named about 3 or 4 offensive lineman that we could've used at the RT position. This goes to what eball had to say...LOL. Funny I guess that begs the question: why would you rather take a developmental RT prospect with the last pick of the 4th round than a developmental QB prospect? Even in the best talent evaluators' eyes, they've roughly equal chances of developing into solid players, and one clearly has far greater potential to positively affect your franchise's fortunes.
JohnC Posted May 10, 2016 Posted May 10, 2016 Seems to me Buddy Nix put the Bills in a box with his determination to find a "Franchise QB" before he departed OBD. I believe the scouting staff did what they thought was best given the circumstances they were given by their GM and they determined that EJ had the most long term potential among the QB candidates in that 2013 class. It's history now.....moving on! The mistake in drafting EJ was not his selection but rather it was taking him with the first round pick. As a prospect he did have some impressive tools that made him an enticing developmental prospect. The Cardale Jones selection is in a certain respect similar to the EJ selection i.e. developmental player. The difference is that CJ was drafted where he should have been as a raw prospect. In drafting EJ they forced the issue while in the Cardale draft they let the draft come to them. It seems as if the organization learned its lesson on how to approach the draft.
thebandit27 Posted May 10, 2016 Posted May 10, 2016 The mistake in drafting EJ was not his selection but rather it was taking him with the first round pick. As a prospect he did have some impressive tools that made him an enticing developmental prospect. The Cardale Jones selection is in a certain respect similar to the EJ selection i.e. developmental player. The difference is that CJ was drafted where he should have been as a raw prospect. In drafting EJ they forced the issue while in the Cardale draft they let the draft come to them. It seems as if the organization learned its lesson on how to approach the draft. This is a salient point--I do think, however, that they didn't want to give up the chance to have their pick of the litter, which I can understand.
26CornerBlitz Posted May 10, 2016 Author Posted May 10, 2016 The mistake in drafting EJ was not his selection but rather it was taking him with the first round pick. As a prospect he did have some impressive tools that made him an enticing developmental prospect. The Cardale Jones selection is in a certain respect similar to the EJ selection i.e. developmental player. The difference is that CJ was drafted where he should have been as a raw prospect. In drafting EJ they forced the issue while in the Cardale draft they let the draft come to them. It seems as if the organization learned its lesson on how to approach the draft. Good post.
Kirby Jackson Posted May 10, 2016 Posted May 10, 2016 The mistake in drafting EJ was not his selection but rather it was taking him with the first round pick. As a prospect he did have some impressive tools that made him an enticing developmental prospect. The Cardale Jones selection is in a certain respect similar to the EJ selection i.e. developmental player. The difference is that CJ was drafted where he should have been as a raw prospect. In drafting EJ they forced the issue while in the Cardale draft they let the draft come to them. It seems as if the organization learned its lesson on how to approach the draft. We talk a lot about how both guys are raw. We rarely differentiate their experience though and that is a big factor. Each guy played at a major college football program. EJ played in 43 games at FSU and had 897 passing attempts. Cardale had 269. We shouldn't lump the two together as much as we do. Cardale's inexperience, to me anyways, makes him more likely to develop than EJ.
QuoteTheRaven83 Posted May 10, 2016 Posted May 10, 2016 (edited) I guess that begs the question: why would you rather take a developmental RT prospect with the last pick of the 4th round than a developmental QB prospect? Even in the best talent evaluators' eyes, they've roughly equal chances of developing into solid players, and one clearly has far greater potential to positively affect your franchise's fortunes. LOL. No young man. I would've drafted one of those lineman to compete for the starting RT position. Not to "develop" into one. Edited May 10, 2016 by QuoteTheRaven83
thebandit27 Posted May 10, 2016 Posted May 10, 2016 LOL. No young man. I would've drafted one of those lineman to compete for the RT position. I'm glad you're laughing... Although I think there were guys available at that pick that could potentially compete at the RT spot (specifically Kyle Murphy, to whom I gave a R3-R4 grade), I think you're asking an awful lot of a 4th round pick to come in and start, let alone play well (that's especially true if it's a guy like Haeg, for instance, who played at an FCS school). And you didn't answer my question. This team had no trouble running the ball (1st in YPC), and handled opposing pass rushers just fine (10th fewest QB hits allowed) without the services of a good RT in 2015. While improving that spot would likely improve the line, there's no debate whatsoever that an improvement at the game's most important position would make a much bigger difference. So, in light of that, I'll ask again: why would you rather take a developmental RT prospect (because counting on a 4th round pick to start is misguided) with the last pick of the 4th round than a developmental QB prospect?
26CornerBlitz Posted May 10, 2016 Author Posted May 10, 2016 I'm glad you're laughing... Although I think there were guys available at that pick that could potentially compete at the RT spot (specifically Kyle Murphy, to whom I gave a R3-R4 grade), I think you're asking an awful lot of a 4th round pick to come in and start, let alone play well (that's especially true if it's a guy like Haeg, for instance, who played at an FCS school). And you didn't answer my question. This team had no trouble running the ball (1st in YPC), and handled opposing pass rushers just fine (10th fewest QB hits allowed) without the services of a good RT in 2015. While improving that spot would likely improve the line, there's no debate whatsoever that an improvement at the game's most important position would make a much bigger difference. So, in light of that, I'll ask again: why would you rather take a developmental RT prospect (because counting on a 4th round pick to start is misguided) with the last pick of the 4th round than a developmental QB prospect? It technically was the last pick in the 4th round, but when you consider supplemental picks it was pretty much a 5th round selection.
QuoteTheRaven83 Posted May 10, 2016 Posted May 10, 2016 (edited) I'm glad you're laughing... Although I think there were guys available at that pick that could potentially compete at the RT spot (specifically Kyle Murphy, to whom I gave a R3-R4 grade), I think you're asking an awful lot of a 4th round pick to come in and start, let alone play well (that's especially true if it's a guy like Haeg, for instance, who played at an FCS school). And you didn't answer my question. This team had no trouble running the ball (1st in YPC), and handled opposing pass rushers just fine (10th fewest QB hits allowed) without the services of a good RT in 2015. While improving that spot would likely improve the line, there's no debate whatsoever that an improvement at the game's most important position would make a much bigger difference. So, in light of that, I'll ask again: why would you rather take a developmental RT prospect (because counting on a 4th round pick to start is misguided) with the last pick of the 4th round than a developmental QB prospect? I thought we did OK with handling pass rushers but was far and away from being a dominant offensive line. 10th fewest QB hits allowed? Tyrod had nothing to do with that? LOL. If we had a "classic pocket passer" back there, that number would've been a lot higher. We weren't that good on the right side of the line and if you're OK with Henderson and Kouandjio anchoring the right side thats good I guess. In terms of being from an FCS school. Could care less if you can play. Edited May 10, 2016 by QuoteTheRaven83
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