RD 4, Pick 139: QB Cardale Jones, Ohio State

[YoloinOhio]

I don't know man. I know you have a level opinion and I assume you live in Ohio or at the least very familiar with Big Ten country, but this seems like reaching to cover another reach on saying Cook doesn't perform in big games. How can you marginalize the Big 10 Championship? Cook cost Ohio State a NC in 2013 and cost Iowa a potential NC in 2015. This is in addition to the biggest win in recent MSU history in the Rose Bowl against an elite Stanford defense. In order to even get to the game you're talking about you need to win these games, so while not important to you, I assure you they were very important to players and they were big games against great teams. What is your measure of talent? Alabama anytime they're a championship team? Everything is apples to apples, no differences at all between the 2015 Ohio State team vs the 2016 Michigan State team?

 

If you do live in Ohio, north of the border, everybody expected MSU to get killed by Alabama, not because Cook, because they had won so many close games all year and just didn't look like they could play at that level. State shouldn't even have been in that game. It was nothing like the 2015 Ohio State team that caught fire with a slew of NFL talent. I'm happy to have Cardale and like the value we got with him more than if we drafted Cook, then again I also like Cook. He throws guys open and let's his guys make plays on the ball without allowing a ton of picks. That's a rare quality. Cook is? Cardale is boom or bust. Both have intrigue, big games have no part of this discussion. If anything it's a + for both.

im not taking his previous bowl games vs Stanford and Baylor away from him or his 2013 win over OSU but there is definitely a difference, for me. The 2013 OSU defense was its worst in 20 years. They weren't even ranked in the top 50 in the country.,His own defense was ranked 2nd. he beat a Baylor defense ranked 51st that year and didn't play vs OSU in 2015. He lost to OSU in 2014, the year they were the best team in the country. There is a difference to me because he looked poor under pressure and made bad decisions his senior year and appeared to regress. That was even before his injury. IMO the defenses don't get less sophisticated and the talent he will be playing against won't be worse in the nfl. Bama is considered the closest defense to what you will find in the NFL due to the level of talent and coaches. That was why I used that particular example.

 

Of course those games he won mean a lot to the team and fans. They just don't mean as much to me if I'm an NFL talent evaluator trying to determine how he will translate to an NFL starter. I watched Cook for three years and I've said before that I was surprised he wasn't drafted higher. I thought his biggest strength was his starting experience and "readiness" coming from the pro style offense. Apparently he is considered just as developmental as Cardale since he went in the same round also to a team who already has a starter in place. There were multiple teams who needed a starter today and passed. If I'm going to take time to develop the QB anyway, I will take the guy who shined in the situation most similar, IMO, to what he will face in the NFL vs the one who failed to generate a single point for his team. Again, jmo.

 

I actually think Cook will have a similar path as AJ Mccarron in the NFL, which is very positive for where they were both drafted IMO.

 

On a separate note, much has been made about Cook's personality off the field and many have surmised that it impacted his draft slide. I don't know whether it did or didn't or which stories about him are true. But I do know some people who were at the Shoe in November the night MSU beat OSU. As you know, Cook didn't play. That didn't stop him from yelling expletives after the game directly at 6 and 8 year old OSU fans (little girls) in the stands near the MSU bench as the game ended. At 23, that lack of poise for a QB who is supposed to be the leader of a team is the type of red flag I would wonder about.

Edited May 11, 2016 by YoloinOhio

[thebandit27]

Yes, the best teams/GMs realize that "If a QB prospect doesn't progress, then you move on to the next prospect." You can be patient to a point, but by the time you're into year 2, you better start seeing improvement and certainly not regression, or you are just wasting a roster spot & everyone's time (i.e. DW with EJ). I don't care if Cardale isn't starting in 2017, but he does need to at least be looking the part and showing the potential to get there by then, or you move on.

 

Exactly

[starrymessenger]

 

Last night on NFL Network they featured Whaley and showed a pic of the Bills draft class. No doubt the camera angle had something to do with it but they commented on how Cardale looked so much bigger than anyone else. He looked bigger than Shaq. A man amongst boys. Thing is his physical skillset, basically his arm, also has him in a different dimension than "normal" players. He can make throws today that most NFL QBs would not even attempt. Great players in any sport look like they are operating on a higher level than the competition. Cardale definitely has the physical attributes to make him that kind of player. I don't know about leadership but his play may wind up speaking for itself and while young and a little immature he looks to be a good kid that people tend to like on a personal level - Just to say that I don't see the Jamarcus/Leaf/Mallett comparisons. I also don't see the EJ comparisons. Jones looks like he was born to throw a football.

The only questions have to do with whats above, not whats below, the shoulders. Will he be able to develop the abilities that contribute to the poise that Goff shows in the pocket? Idk but if he can, look out. As the QB with the highest ceiling in the draft I have no problems rolling the dice with him. Great pick IMO.

[JohnC]

Yes, the best teams/GMs realize that "If a QB prospect doesn't progress, then you move on to the next prospect." You can be patient to a point, but by the time you're into year 2, you better start seeing improvement and certainly not regression, or you are just wasting a roster spot & everyone's time (i.e. DW with EJ). I don't care if Cardale isn't starting in 2017, but he does need to at least be looking the part and showing the potential to get there by then, or you move on.

Excellent post. The problem with over drafting a qb (or any position) as we did with EJ is that the tendency is to be too invested in that player because of the cost. What happens is that evaluation decisions are then influenced by draft positions rather than performance decisions.

 

As I said in a prior post regarding the EJ pick is that if he would have been drafted in the third round where he was generally ranked by most teams his fading prospects wouldn't be so much highlighted. Nix took a risk because of a need and he ended up losing more chips than he should of with his calculated gamble.

[Kirby Jackson]

im not taking his previous bowl games vs Stanford and Baylor away from him or his 2013 win over OSU but there is definitely a difference, for me. The 2013 OSU defense was its worst in 20 years. They weren't even ranked in the top 50 in the country.,His own defense was ranked 2nd. he beat a Baylor defense ranked 51st that year and didn't play vs OSU in 2015. He lost to OSU in 2014, the year they were the best team in the country. There is a difference to me because he looked poor under pressure and made bad decisions his senior year and appeared to regress. That was even before his injury. IMO the defenses don't get less sophisticated and the talent he will be playing against won't be worse in the nfl. Bama is considered the closest defense to what you will find in the NFL due to the level of talent and coaches. That was why I used that particular example.

 

Of course those games he won mean a lot to the team and fans. They just don't mean as much to me if I'm an NFL talent evaluator trying to determine how he will translate to an NFL starter. I watched Cook for three years and I've said before that I was surprised he wasn't drafted higher. I thought his biggest strength was his starting experience and "readiness" coming from the pro style offense. Apparently he is considered just as developmental as Cardale since he went in the same round also to a team who already has a starter in place. There were multiple teams who needed a starter today and passed. If I'm going to take time to develop the QB anyway, I will take the guy who shined in the situation most similar, IMO, to what he will face in the NFL vs the one who failed to generate a single point for his team. Again, jmo.

 

I actually think Cook will have a similar path as AJ Mccarron in the NFL, which is very positive for where they were both drafted IMO.

 

On a separate note, much has been made about Cook's personality off the field and many have surmised that it impacted his draft slide. I don't know whether it did or didn't or which stories about him are true. But I do know some people who were at the Shoe in November the night MSU beat OSU. As you know, Cook didn't play. That didn't stop him from yelling expletives after the game directly at 6 and 8 year old OSU fans (little girls) in the stands near the MSU bench as the game ended. At 23, that lack of poise for a QB who is supposed to be the leader of a team is the type of red flag I would wonder about.

I know 2 prospects that worked out with Cook and said that he is a d!ck!! Apparently no one likes the guy and his dad is even worse.

[eball]

Excellent post. The problem with over drafting a qb (or any position) as we did with EJ is that the tendency is to be too invested in that player because of the cost. What happens is that evaluation decisions are then influenced by draft positions rather than performance decisions.

 

As I said in a prior post regarding the EJ pick is that if he would have been drafted in the third round where he was generally ranked by most teams his fading prospects wouldn't be so much highlighted. Nix took a risk because of a need and he ended up losing more chips than he should of with his calculated gamble.

 

I really don't believe Whaley has shown he is "too invested" in EJ. Marrone made the decision to start Orton in 2014, and Whaley brought in Taylor and (cough) Cassel to compete in 2015. It has been entirely reasonable to let EJ play out his rookie contract as a backup to see if he shows improvement. Whaley also made the smart (and obvious) decision not to pick up EJ's option, while doing the right thing by not trashing him publicly and stating (correctly) that he is an above-average backup in this league.

 

And let's also not forget that Nix traded down in the 1st round and got an extra pick (that eventually turned into Shady) before selecting EJ.

[Coach Tuesday]

I know 2 prospects that worked out with Cook and said that he is a d!ck!! Apparently no one likes the guy and his dad is even worse.

 

Cook is pretty much universally regarded as a first-rate a-hole and yes, his dad is even worse.

[JohnC]

 

I really don't believe Whaley has shown he is "too invested" in EJ. Marrone made the decision to start Orton in 2014, and Whaley brought in Taylor and (cough) Cassel to compete in 2015. It has been entirely reasonable to let EJ play out his rookie contract as a backup to see if he shows improvement. Whaley also made the smart (and obvious) decision not to pick up EJ's option, while doing the right thing by not trashing him publicly and stating (correctly) that he is an above-average backup in this league.

 

And let's also not forget that Nix traded down in the 1st round and got an extra pick (that eventually turned into Shady) before selecting EJ.

Regardless of the trade down EJ should never have been a first round pick. He was a third round caliber of prospect who was drafted too high. If he wasn't a first round pick there is a good chance that he wouldn't be on the roster (my opinion). I say the same thing about Kujo. If he wasn't a second round pick he not only would not now be on the roster but he would not have made the roster in his rookie year.

 

Marrone made the decision to start the out of shape Orton because he forcefully made it clear to Whaley that he was not going to put up with EJ as a starter. There were rancorous public exchanges between Marrone toward Whaley that the qb situation with EJ playing was not only untenable but was not going to be tolerated by him. That wasn't a difficult call for him to make because it was evident to him that he was not only not ready to play but it was improbable that he was ever going to be a starting caliber qb in this league. His lack of accuracy even in practice was stunning to witness.

 

It is acknowledged that Marrone isn't the type of person that most people would find endearing. He is insufferable and tough to take. But to be fair his almost immediate judgments on EJ and Kujo were correct.

 

I agree with you that Whaley made the right call on not picking up EJ's option. There comes a point where what is obvious becomes blatantly obvious that as a starter he isn't good enough.

Edited May 11, 2016 by JohnC

[prissythecat]

Regardless of the trade down EJ should never have been a first round pick. He was a third round caliber of prospect who was drafted too high. If he wasn't a first round pick there is a good chance that he wouldn't be on the roster (my opinion). I say the same thing about Kujo. If he wasn't a second round pick he not only would not now be on the roster but he would not have made the roster in his rookie year.

 

Marrone made the decision to start the out of shape Orton because he forcefully made it clear to Whaley that he was not going to put up with EJ as a starter. There were rancorous public exchanges between Marrone toward Whaley that the qb situation with EJ playing was not only untenable but was not going to be tolerated by him. That wasn't a difficult call for him to make because it was evident to him that he was not only not ready to play but it was improbable that he was ever going to be a starting caliber qb in this league. His lack of accuracy even in practice was stunning to witness.

 

It is acknowledged that Marrone isn't the type of person that most people would find endearing. He is insufferable and tough to take. But to be fair his almost immediate judgments on EJ and Kujo were correct.

 

I agree with you that Whaley made the right call on not picking up EJ's option. There comes a point where what is obvious becomes blatantly obvious that as a starter he isn't good enough.

 

 

That can't be true. I have ve seen so many posts here about Marrone and Hackett ruining EJ and that EJ will probably light it up once on a new team.

[26CornerBlitz]

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[Mr. WEO]

Last night on NFL Network they featured Whaley and showed a pic of the Bills draft class. No doubt the camera angle had something to do with it but they commented on how Cardale looked so much bigger than anyone else. He looked bigger than Shaq. A man amongst boys. Thing is his physical skillset, basically his arm, also has him in a different dimension than "normal" players. He can make throws today that most NFL QBs would not even attempt. Great players in any sport look like they are operating on a higher level than the competition. Cardale definitely has the physical attributes to make him that kind of player. I don't know about leadership but his play may wind up speaking for itself and while young and a little immature he looks to be a good kid that people tend to like on a personal level - Just to say that I don't see the Jamarcus/Leaf/Mallett comparisons. I also don't see the EJ comparisons. Jones looks like he was born to throw a football.

The only questions have to do with whats above, not whats below, the shoulders. Will he be able to develop the abilities that contribute to the poise that Goff shows in the pocket? Idk but if he can, look out. As the QB with the highest ceiling in the draft I have no problems rolling the dice with him. Great pick IMO.

 

 

I never got the impression that I was looking at a great QB operating on a different level...no, a different dimension, than his contemporaries or great recent college QBs.

[Mikie2times]

im not taking his previous bowl games vs Stanford and Baylor away from him or his 2013 win over OSU but there is definitely a difference, for me. The 2013 OSU defense was its worst in 20 years. They weren't even ranked in the top 50 in the country.,His own defense was ranked 2nd. he beat a Baylor defense ranked 51st that year and didn't play vs OSU in 2015. He lost to OSU in 2014, the year they were the best team in the country. There is a difference to me because he looked poor under pressure and made bad decisions his senior year and appeared to regress. That was even before his injury. IMO the defenses don't get less sophisticated and the talent he will be playing against won't be worse in the nfl. Bama is considered the closest defense to what you will find in the NFL due to the level of talent and coaches. That was why I used that particular example.

 

Of course those games he won mean a lot to the team and fans. They just don't mean as much to me if I'm an NFL talent evaluator trying to determine how he will translate to an NFL starter. I watched Cook for three years and I've said before that I was surprised he wasn't drafted higher. I thought his biggest strength was his starting experience and "readiness" coming from the pro style offense. Apparently he is considered just as developmental as Cardale since he went in the same round also to a team who already has a starter in place. There were multiple teams who needed a starter today and passed. If I'm going to take time to develop the QB anyway, I will take the guy who shined in the situation most similar, IMO, to what he will face in the NFL vs the one who failed to generate a single point for his team. Again, jmo.

 

I actually think Cook will have a similar path as AJ Mccarron in the NFL, which is very positive for where they were both drafted IMO.

 

On a separate note, much has been made about Cook's personality off the field and many have surmised that it impacted his draft slide. I don't know whether it did or didn't or which stories about him are true. But I do know some people who were at the Shoe in November the night MSU beat OSU. As you know, Cook didn't play. That didn't stop him from yelling expletives after the game directly at 6 and 8 year old OSU fans (little girls) in the stands near the MSU bench as the game ended. At 23, that lack of poise for a QB who is supposed to be the leader of a team is the type of red flag I would wonder about.

Fair enough Yolo, I didn't mean to pull you into something lengthy over a simple statement you made (although that's what I did, my apologies). I will say Cook did always appear to have a Bledsoe like quality to him. I used to call him mini Bledsoe to a good friend of mine who graduated from MSU. I've heard the stories about him off the field, local people talking, not just news reports. I would say it's likely these reports about him off the field have some legs. I thought he performed rather well as far as the body of his career on the field and I liked the non Bledsoe like parts to his game. I thought he showed very good ball placement on covered WR's all year in 2015, especially with Burbridge. Good arm strength. Always seemed to win, especially late in games, especially close games. That said he was also the benefactor of several outstanding defenses. I wouldn't be stunned if he shows a McCarron like trajectory in the NFL.

 

Good college football talk. Now that I know you enjoy the Big Ten it will make for some good discussion next year. I don't have a horse in the race, but generally root for both Michigan schools to represent the state and love the conference in general. If anything I probably lean MSU, but just not near the level of being a Bills fan.

Edited May 12, 2016 by KzooMike

[starrymessenger]

I never got the impression that I was looking at a great QB operating on a different level...no, a different dimension, than his contemporaries or great recent college QBs.

Wasn't suggesting that he was in any way there as the complete package now obviously. In a general vein there are two aspects to playing the all important position. There are required physical and mental attributes/aptitudes. Probably the latter are rarer and harder to find than the former, but both are necessary. Cardale's physical skill set is elite. Thats the reason so many feel that he has the highest ceiling of any QB in the 2016 draft. What they are in effect saying is that if he can negotiate the mental part of playing the position, he can be a superior and possibly dominant player. The odds are against that happening, but even if it is a low probability outcome its a flyer worth taking in the mid to later rounds given the potential payoff. Its also a practical approach (though not the only one you might take) considering that you may never get to pick first or second in your lifetime.

[Maury Ballstein]

I never got the impression that I was looking at a great QB operating on a different level...no, a different dimension, than his contemporaries or great recent college QBs.

Might wanna watch the championship run games again. He ran over linebackers, threw bombs and "operated on a different level"

[Coach Tuesday]

Regardless of the trade down EJ should never have been a first round pick. He was a third round caliber of prospect who was drafted too high. If he wasn't a first round pick there is a good chance that he wouldn't be on the roster (my opinion). I say the same thing about Kujo. If he wasn't a second round pick he not only would not now be on the roster but he would not have made the roster in his rookie year.

 

Marrone made the decision to start the out of shape Orton because he forcefully made it clear to Whaley that he was not going to put up with EJ as a starter. There were rancorous public exchanges between Marrone toward Whaley that the qb situation with EJ playing was not only untenable but was not going to be tolerated by him. That wasn't a difficult call for him to make because it was evident to him that he was not only not ready to play but it was improbable that he was ever going to be a starting caliber qb in this league. His lack of accuracy even in practice was stunning to witness.

 

It is acknowledged that Marrone isn't the type of person that most people would find endearing. He is insufferable and tough to take. But to be fair his almost immediate judgments on EJ and Kujo were correct.

 

I agree with you that Whaley made the right call on not picking up EJ's option. There comes a point where what is obvious becomes blatantly obvious that as a starter he isn't good enough.

 

I believe this is almost correct but you're missing one important concept: player development. Many players improve over time given proper coaching in a continuous, supportive system. The best organizations (NE, GB, NO) thrive at this. It requires a long-term strategy, top-notch coaching and full buy-in across the entire organization.

 

Doug Marrone was focused on himself. His outlook was short-term. He didn't want EJ or KuJo on his roster because they weren't going to help DOUG MARRONE achieve his short-term plan of hopping from the Bills to better pastures (the Giants or Jets job). This is not to say he was wrong about EJ or KuJo - he might be right, eventually. But those players have not been developed long enough to determine whether they'll ever be competent players IMO. We're getting to that point, sure, but I refuse to believe that Marrone was savvy enough to know with certainty, two years ago, whether their careers would ever amount to anything. And by throwing a public hissy fit about EJ in his second year, Marrone may have ruined the dude's confidence and career.

 

I've said what I'll say from his first training camp as a coach: Doug Marrone is a class-A jerk. Just a crappy human being.

Edited May 12, 2016 by Coach Tuesday

[FireChan]

 

I believe this is almost correct but you're missing one important concept: player development. Many players improve over time given proper coaching in a continuous, supportive system. The best organizations (NE, GB, NO) thrive at this. It requires a long-term strategy, top-notch coaching and full buy-in across the entire organization.

 

Doug Marrone was focused on himself. His outlook was short-term. He didn't want EJ or KuJo on his roster because they weren't going to help DOUG MARRONE achieve his short-term plan of hopping from the Bills to better pastures (the Giants or Jets job). This is not to say he was wrong about EJ or KuJo - he might be right, eventually. But those players have not been developed long enough to determine whether they'll ever be competent players IMO. We're getting to that point, sure, but I refuse to believe that Marrone was savvy enough to know with certainty, two years ago, whether their careers would ever amount to anything. And by throwing a public hissy fit about EJ in his second year, Marrone may have ruined the dude's confidence and career.

 

I've said what I'll say from his first training camp as a coach: Doug Marrone is a class-A jerk. Just a crappy human being.

This is almost entirely hearsay.

[JohnC]

 

I believe this is almost correct but you're missing one important concept: player development. Many players improve over time given proper coaching in a continuous, supportive system. The best organizations (NE, GB, NO) thrive at this. It requires a long-term strategy, top-notch coaching and full buy-in across the entire organization.

 

Doug Marrone was focused on himself. His outlook was short-term. He didn't want EJ or KuJo on his roster because they weren't going to help DOUG MARRONE achieve his short-term plan of hopping from the Bills to better pastures (the Giants or Jets job). This is not to say he was wrong about EJ or KuJo - he might be right, eventually. But those players have not been developed long enough to determine whether they'll ever be competent players IMO. We're getting to that point, sure, but I refuse to believe that Marrone was savvy enough to know with certainty, two years ago, whether their careers would ever amount to anything. And by throwing a public hissy fit about EJ in his second year, Marrone may have ruined the dude's confidence and career.

 

I've said what I'll say from his first training camp as a coach: Doug Marrone is a class-A jerk. Just a crappy human being.

Being a jerk doesn't mean that your evaluation of any player is disqualifying because of personality deficiencies. Belichick is certainly not an engaging personality but his distasteful personality traits don't diminish his football judgments. Bill Parcells was beyond being arrogant yet his football judgments were for the most part very good. My point is not that Marrone is comparable to either of these HOF coaches but rather it is likability doesn't detract from one's evaluation of players, especially when their judgments have mostly proven to be correct.

 

There are certain traits that are essential for particular positions. Kujo has slow feet and lacks athleticism. No amount of coaching can overcome that deficiency. As time has gone by DM has been proven right on his assessment of the lumbering tackle. With his impatience with EJ I'm not going to criticize a HC who wants to win now. As far as developing EJ the reality is that Whaley has come to the same conclusion that Marrone quickly made. EJ has a flaw that for a qb can't be overcome: he is not an accurate passer. You can criticize Marrone for a lot of things but on his assessment of EJ he was correct.

[Coach Tuesday]

Being a jerk doesn't mean that your evaluation of any player is disqualifying because of personality deficiencies. Belichick is certainly not an engaging personality but his distasteful personality traits don't diminish his football judgments. Bill Parcells was beyond being arrogant yet his football judgments were for the most part very good. My point is not that Marrone is comparable to either of these HOF coaches but rather it is likability doesn't detract from one's evaluation of players, especially when their judgments have mostly proven to be correct.

 

There are certain traits that are essential for particular positions. Kujo has slow feet and lacks athleticism. No amount of coaching can overcome that deficiency. As time has gone by DM has been proven right on his assessment of the lumbering tackle. With his impatience with EJ I'm not going to criticize a HC who wants to win now. As far as developing EJ the reality is that Whaley has come to the same conclusion that Marrone quickly made. EJ has a flaw that for a qb can't be overcome: he is not an accurate passer. You can criticize Marrone for a lot of things but on his assessment of EJ he was correct.

 

Marrone's assessment was premature, and immaturely acted upon.

This is almost entirely hearsay.

 

Great point dude.

[YoloinOhio]

Fair enough Yolo, I didn't mean to pull you into something lengthy over a simple statement you made (although that's what I did, my apologies). I will say Cook did always appear to have a Bledsoe like quality to him. I used to call him mini Bledsoe to a good friend of mine who graduated from MSU. I've heard the stories about him off the field, local people talking, not just news reports. I would say it's likely these reports about him off the field have some legs. I thought he performed rather well as far as the body of his career on the field and I liked the non Bledsoe like parts to his game. I thought he showed very good ball placement on covered WR's all year in 2015, especially with Burbridge. Good arm strength. Always seemed to win, especially late in games, especially close games. That said he was also the benefactor of several outstanding defenses. I wouldn't be stunned if he shows a McCarron like trajectory in the NFL.

 

Good college football talk. Now that I know you enjoy the Big Ten it will make for some good discussion next year. I don't have a horse in the race, but generally root for both Michigan schools to represent the state and love the conference in general. If anything I probably lean MSU, but just not near the level of being a Bills fan.

absolutely, there are a decent amount of Big 10 followers on here and CFB fans in general. Pretty good CFB discussion thread on Saturdays in the fall and there is a CFB sub-forum for the die-Hards like me to obsess about recruiting year-round and important stuff like spring football Edited May 12, 2016 by YoloinOhio

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