Fitz calls his shot -Update Signed w/Jets

[Hapless Bills Fan]

it wasn't that long ago - like within the last 4-6 months. I think it was a Carucci/Graham or Dunne podcast or Sirius radio spot. I think it was either after the season or leading up to one of the Fitz matchups. I will look when I get a chance. Though I don't know if it contradicts what he said about having Fitz compete with TJax. Just that he was looking forward to coaching Fitz and expected to have him.

 

If it's recent, it sounds a little revisionist. If you got a QB due $10.4M and you start talking about having him compete as a starter with a $1.75M guy, you can't as a coach realistically expect to have him around without he's willing to take a cut.

[KD in CA]

 

Johnsonites are limp!

 

Teams choke, teams win unless you dislike player.

 

 

 

The week prior to the finale he threw a game-winning TD pass to beat the Patriots in OT.

 

Fitz has his issues but, you know, perspective.

 

 

Fitz also had torn ligaments in the thumb on his throwing hand for the Thursday night game. He had surgery the following morning, he injured it a week or two prior in the Oakland game. A little more perspective.

 

You guys are too easy!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

You are making too detailed of an analysis of Fitz and the contracts he has garnered from the multiple teams he has played for. The general conclusion and observation I take away from his contracts is that he is not a well valued qb, and never has been. It's as simple as that. He is not a franchise qb from a talent standpoint. He has been a vagabond qb for half a dozen teams who after a short stay moves on to his next stop.

 

Fitz had a good statistical year last year. So what! Does it represent his talent level and body of work? Absolutely not. It was an aberration, not his usual standard. Fitz's last game in Buffalo that eliminated his team was a performance that Buffalo fans are well acquainted with. Do you believe that the Jet front office after watching that Fitz horrifying performance that sabotaged their playoff chances decided to be more committed to him and have it reflected by their contract offer? Let's get serious here.

 

People are now criticizing Nix for his contract stance on Fitz which resulted in his departure. There is a lot of things to criticize him for but I'm not going to criticize him for taking a common sense position on offering a mediocre qb a contract commensurate with his talent lvel.

 

Were the Bills a better team with or without Fitz? Who gives a dam about that meaningless question! Because with Fitz you still go nowhere. So why not try another option? If it doesn't work out, then try another option. Overpaying for someone who is not going to lead your team to anywhere consequential is pointless. So on this issue Nix was right on how he handled Fitz.

 

I don't know if the Jets and Fitz will get a deal done. However, I understand their position and find it to be reasonable. The fundamental issue is paying a player commensurate to their talent level. That is what they are attempting to do here for a player where there is no other market interest.

 

ROTFL! John, you are just too much sometimes. You asserted that Fitz played for the Titans for less money, and asked if anyone knew what he'd played for at the Titans and what the Bills were said to have offered him. I answered. I guess it might kill you to acknowledge a factual point?

 

As I recall, you seemed to be holding up Nix and his contract negotiations (or hard line) with Fitz as an example of good personnel management in cutting Fitz when he wouldn't re-negotiate for whatever they offered him. The point isn't and wasn't to offer a detailed analysis of Fitz and his contracts. What I wrote (did you even read it?) was an analysis of what cutting Fitz (and signing his replacements) cost the Bills - most of the information there is on what QB cost THE BILLS.

 

Given what the Bills had tied up in dead cap, payments to QB who never played, and payments to QB no better and arguably worse than Fitz, it's really tough to make an argument that the Bills made a wise personnel decision. That's the question: not whether the Bills would have been a better team with Fitz in 2013 and 2014 than without him - but whether pointing to Nix and the Bills negotiations as "common sense" football/financial judgement by a GM (and by extension, pointing to the Jets not-dissimilar situation as "reasonable" football/financial decisions) is a logically defensible position.

 

I think that's a rough position to back. You're welcome to disagree, or to ignore what I post, or whatever, but for gosh sakes, if you're going to respond, at least respond to what's written, don't pop up straw men that weren't actually being argued then regurgitate the same-ol same-ol.

Maybe not for you but for plenty of people you don't have to go into statistical minutia to recognize mediocrity. If you can't handle that simple concept then that is your problem.

 

You know, John, I do go into statistical minutia at times - that's a fair cop. But actually, the post to which you responded saying it was "too detailed an analysis" (and drew a reaction) contained no statistics at all, let alone statistical minutia.

 

"I know I'm right so I'll put you down as too detailed, too full of statistical minutia, or whatever else occurs to me whether or not it actually applies to your argument" is not very persuasive, y'know?

the only thing i don't understand about this argument is how anyone here cares enough about it to stretch it to 43 pages???

 

It's the off-season and I find discussions of Rex and his defense too painful to contemplate. It's the football off-season equivalent of poring over what color to repaint the kitchen when you know damn well your roof is leaking, you suspect one of the trusses is damaged, and it's not clear how you'll manage the repairs.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Hopeful

[JohnC]

 

ROTFL! John, you are just too much sometimes. You asserted that Fitz played for the Titans for less money, and asked if anyone knew what he'd played for at the Titans and what the Bills were said to have offered him. I answered. I guess it might kill you to acknowledge a factual point?

 

As I recall, you seemed to be holding up Nix and his contract negotiations (or hard line) with Fitz as an example of good personnel management in cutting Fitz when he wouldn't re-negotiate for whatever they offered him. The point isn't and wasn't to offer a detailed analysis of Fitz and his contracts. What I wrote (did you even read it?) was an analysis of what cutting Fitz (and signing his replacements) cost the Bills - most of the information there is on what QB cost THE BILLS.

 

Given what the Bills had tied up in dead cap, payments to QB who never played, and payments to QB no better and arguably worse than Fitz, it's really tough to make an argument that the Bills made a wise personnel decision. That's the question: not whether the Bills would have been a better team with Fitz in 2013 and 2014 than without him - but whether pointing to Nix and the Bills negotiations as "common sense" football/financial judgement by a GM (and by extension, pointing to the Jets not-dissimilar situation as "reasonable" football/financial decisions) is a logically defensible position.

 

I think that's a rough position to back. You're welcome to disagree, or to ignore what I post, or whatever, but for gosh sakes, if you're going to respond, at least respond to what's written, don't pop up straw men that weren't actually being argued then regurgitate the same-ol same-ol.

 

You know, John, I do go into statistical minutia at times - that's a fair cop. But actually, the post to which you responded saying it was "too detailed an analysis" (and drew a reaction) contained no statistics at all, let alone statistical minutia.

 

"I know I'm right so I'll put you down as too detailed, too full of statistical minutia, or whatever else occurs to me whether or not it actually applies to your argument" is not very persuasive, y'know?

 

It's the off-season and I find discussions of Rex and his defense too painful to contemplate. It's the football off-season equivalent of pouring over what color to repaint the kitchen when you know damn well your roof is leaking, you suspect one of the trusses is damaged, and it's not clear how you'll fund the repairs.

I appreciate the effort you took to research Fitz's contracts. But my basic point is simply that I don't believe Fitz is a starting caliber qb and I don't disagree with the Jets' position of establishing a low baseline commensurate with his talent level.

 

You pointed out that Nix took a cap hit on his scattered armed qb. So essentially he decided to take a cap hit rather than pay Fitz a little more. What does that say about Nix's assessment of Fitz as a qb and to his value to the team? His recorded phone discussion bluntly indicated that he didn't have much regard for his qb.

 

Are the Jets taking a major risk in this game of chicken with Fitz? Yes, because so far they don't have a viable option heading into the season. But that in itself is an indication that they are willing to take the risk of having a major void at qb rather than pay him at what he is asking for, which in itself is not much for a starting qb. Again, another indication of how much he is valued as a qb talent. That's my central point.

[Beef Jerky]

Jets need to sign Fitz to a huge contract. Hopefully it comes at the end of TC.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

The real question is, is starting Geno worth the 12 million dollars in savings?

 

Ha! There is no $12M in savings.

 

The Jets have $3M in cap space. Pundits were speculating that after picking Hackenberg, the Jets would only offer Fitz a 1 year deal but he would want 2 or 3. That's bass-ackwards. The real reason the Jets won't accept Fitz counter to play on a 1 year contract for $12M is because THEY"RE BROKE. They can't do it. They need him to take something like $3M salary and $9M bonus spread over 3 years, 'cuz they got Revis and Wilkerson counting $34M against the cap just for 2 guys. They have to cut someone even to pay Fitz $12M this year as they reportedly offered.

[Kirby Jackson]

It's pretty simple really. If we get to Christmas and are in the exact same place which side will have "won" the stalemate?

[3rdand12]

It's pretty simple really. If we get to Christmas and are in the exact same place which side will have "won" the stalemate?

Thats one of those existential questions isn't it ? Rhetorical ? Zen ?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I appreciate the effort you took to research Fitz's contracts. But my basic point is simply that I don't believe Fitz is a starting caliber qb and I don't disagree with the Jets' position of establishing a low baseline commensurate with his talent level.

 

You pointed out that Nix took a cap hit on his scattered armed qb. So essentially he decided to take a cap hit rather than pay Fitz a little more. What does that say about Nix's assessment of Fitz as a qb and to his value to the team? His recorded phone discussion bluntly indicated that he didn't have much regard for his qb.

 

Are the Jets taking a major risk in this game of chicken with Fitz? Yes, because so far they don't have a viable option heading into the season. But that in itself is an indication that they are willing to take the risk of having a major void at qb rather than pay him at what he is asking for, which in itself is not much for a starting qb. Again, another indication of how much he is valued as a qb talent. That's my central point.

 

You are using Nix assessment of Fitz' value to the Bills as a QB to justify both the Jets holding a hard line on Fitz contract, and your position that the Jets offer is motivated by and aligned with an appropriate assessment of Fitz' talent level. My point, which seems to be being missed, isn't just that Nix "took a cap hit" in cutting Fitz. It's that Nix cut Fitz then wound up paying more money for what many would consider less value at the QB position - Kolb, TJax, Manuel, Lewis, and Tuel in 2013, PLUS a big cap hit.

 

You need to look at the whole CONTEXT of Nix handling of the Bills QB situation. When one does, it seems pretty evident that Nix showed pretty poor judgement overall (not drafting, Fitz big contract, drafting in a poor year, releasing Fitz, who they signed and for what, etc). In the context of Nix overall handling of the Bills QB situation, his assessment of Fitz appears most flimsy as a justification for the Jets contract offer to Fitz. Nix, taken as a whole, dreadfully mishandled the Bills QB situation both from a talent and a value perspective.

 

The Jets just might be doing the same. Or they might not. But you can't use Nix's judgement as justification for the Jets' judgement without opening the books on the full context of Nix's judgement and who replaced him.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Hopeful

[Kirby Jackson]

Thats one of those existential questions isn't it ? Rhetorical ? Zen ?

Ha ha

 

How I envision it is that Fitz is home, opening presents with his kids, eating, drinking and watching basketball. He has the whole family over. The Jets are getting back from NE after getting beat by 35. They'll have about 5 wins and the excitement of last year will feel like a lifetime ago.

[3rdand12]

 

You are using Nix evidently poor assessment of Fitz and his value as a QB to justify the Jets holding a hard line on Fitz contract. My point, which seems to be being missed, isn't just that Nix took a cap hit in cutting Fitz. It's that Nix (and then Whaley) cut Fitz then wound up paying more money for what many would consider less value at the QB position - Kolb, TJax, Manuel, Lewis, and Tuel in 2013, PLUS a big cap hit.

 

You need to look at the whole CONTEXT of Nix handling of the Bills QB situation. When one does, it seems pretty evident that Nix showed pretty poor judgement overall (not drafting, drafting, releasing, who they signed, on and on). In context of his overall judgement, his assessment of Fitz appears very flimsy as a justification for the Jets contract offer to Fitz, because it seems pretty clear that Nix, taken as a whole, dreadfully mishandled the Bills QB situation both from a talent and a value perspective.

 

The Jets just might be doing the same.

Hopeful. i think you might have realized by now, i think about some things in general terms. and file them that way.

When you speak about the context in regard to the Bills Fitz relations at the end , that is my basic rendering.

Thanks for helping clarify a part of My Bills fanhood that i had shut away from my mind. sometimes remembering the past is painful.

as a Bills fan i mean

Ha ha

 

How I envision it is that Fitz is home, opening presents with his kids, eating, drinking and watching basketball. He has the whole family over. The Jets are getting back from NE after getting beat by 35. They'll have about 5 wins and the excitement of last year will feel like a lifetime ago.

please stop film.

The Jets need to beat the Pats.

Pick another game please.

: )

[Augie]

Hope Fitz takes the cash from the Jets, and tosses us 4-5 picks this year. Let them draft high enough that they can pick yet another QB who will never be the "Man". THAT is my hope.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Hopeful. i think you might have realized by now, i think about some things in general terms. and file them that way.

When you speak about the context in regard to the Bills Fitz relations at the end , that is my basic rendering.

Thanks for helping clarify a part of My Bills fanhood that i had shut away from my mind. sometimes remembering the past is painful.

as a Bills fan i mean

 

You're welcome - I think? I kind of feel I've been thanked for sticking an old fashioned lancet into a pus-filled boil just beneath your left shoulderblade. It had to be done, but it hurts, and that's some stench.

 

It's very hard to be a Bills fan and be....Hopeful.

[Kirby Jackson]

please stop film.

The Jets need to beat the Pats.

Pick another game please.

: )

That just happens to be their Christmas Eve game, at New England.

Hope Fitz takes the cash from the Jets, and tosses us 4-5 picks this year. Let them draft high enough that they can pick yet another QB who will never be the "Man". THAT is my hope.

Yes!! Win about 5-6 games, not 3.

[3rdand12]

That just happens to be their Christmas Eve game, at New England.

I know but losing by 35 means Pats are likely running into the playoffs again. I cannot stomach much more of that.

[3rdand12]

 

You're welcome - I think? I kind of feel I've been thanked for sticking an old fashioned lancet into a pus-filled boil just beneath your left shoulderblade. It had to be done, but it hurts, and that's some stench.

 

It's very hard to be a Bills fan and be....Hopeful.

it had to be done. still need the red hot branding iron to seal the wound.

 

where's my bullet to bite down on ! and wheres my jug of corn liquor !

[Kirby Jackson]

I know but losing by 35 means Pats are likely running into the playoffs again. I cannot stomach much more of that.

Oh me neither, but I can't see Geno rolling into Foxboro on Christmas Eve and not getting destroyed. It's going to be ugly.

[3rdand12]

Oh me neither, but I can't see Geno rolling into Foxboro on Christmas Eve and not getting destroyed. It's going to be ugly.

Kirby, keep your mind open.

Logical thinking concurs ! But Football is a nutty game by Dec it could be topsy turvied.

 

I want to see a couple Jets games before i get definitive.

ha !

[JohnC]

 

You are using Nix evidently poor assessment of Fitz and his value as a QB to justify the Jets holding a hard line on Fitz contract. My point, which seems to be being missed, isn't just that Nix took a cap hit in cutting Fitz. It's that Nix (and then Whaley) cut Fitz then wound up paying more money for what many would consider less value at the QB position - Kolb, TJax, Manuel, Lewis, and Tuel in 2013, PLUS a big cap hit.

 

You need to look at the whole CONTEXT of Nix handling of the Bills QB situation. When one does, it seems pretty evident that Nix showed pretty poor judgement overall (not drafting, drafting, releasing, who they signed, on and on). In context of his overall judgement, his assessment of Fitz appears very flimsy as a justification for the Jets contract offer to Fitz, because it seems pretty clear that Nix, taken as a whole, dreadfully mishandled the Bills QB situation both from a talent and a value perspective.

 

The Jets just might be doing the same.,

I do agree with you that Nix/Whaley were not aggressive in pursuing qb options from the draft or from the market. What I see is that the failure was not how he handled Fitz (I have no problem with it and you do) but the failure was not having a plan in place before he made his decision on Fitz. Strategic thinking certainly wasn't a hallmark of Nix and the organization. What should have been a priority pursuit was a secondary issue.That is more of a main issue for me than the issue of Fitz, a middling qb. i.e. getting a more credible qb. Apparently Nix felt (and maybe Whaley also?) that it was more important to bolster the roster in general before addressing the qb position. (I heard him say that on WGR on more than one occasion.)

 

Are the Jets taking taking a risk with their paltry offer to Fitz. Yes, and I have said so. That doesn't mean that they don't have a backup plan that you or I are aware of. I'm not even sure what Elway's plans are for qb for his SB team. What appears to me is that the Jets have made a basic calculation that they are willing to pay Fitz to his talent level. Evidently it isn't too high.

Edited June 7, 2016 by JohnC

[eball]

 

We might have to agree to disagree, eball. I understand your viewpoint, but I think the call supports the hypothesis that it was a business decision for Fitz to move on from the Bills. I think Nix's phone call telegraphs that the Bills were (like the Jets are) taking a hard line with the contract they offered Fitz. The Bills asserted they offered Fitz 4 years, $3M a year. Let's parse that out in terms of the above:

"Fighting for probably a backup job" = no or little guaranteed money. Why would you offer a guy "fighting for the backup job" any guaranteed money?

Who was he fighting with? Likely TJax. = likely offered similar$$, $1.75M that year with incentives.

 

Keep in mind it wasn't just talk of a QB of the future. Fitz had already heard Marrone say that there would be an "open competition" between himself and TJax to start, then Nix started talking about drafting a guy in the 1st round. The league standard is 1st round draftees are expected to start, not sit. I don't really think there was anything that different in the phone call, except that if I hear "fighting for a backup job" and see no guaranteed money, I start thinking that it's not in my financial best interest to stay through training camp and maybe get cut and have trouble finding a job just before the season, vs. going to the owner's meeting and shopping around. And he did get guaranteed $$ from the Titans, and (taking the Bills at their word) slightly more money or (guessing his first year offer was TJax like) about 2x as much.

 

I don't think Fitz is the guy who would have let bruised pride stand in the way of a very good chance to start and a contract he saw as fair.

 

My point is that the Bills had signed Fitz to a rather (at the time) expensive, middle-of-the-pack starting QB contract and Nix's statements made it clear they were going to require him to take a pay cut because in their opinion he wasn't playing to the level of that contract. If you have been the starting QB and you see the words on paper that your GM will be asking you to "do something" because you are "fighting for probably a backup job" I think that goes a long way towards making your decision for you.