JohnC Posted June 3, 2016 Posted June 3, 2016 Again, where was the risk bringing in Peyton? They had TEBOW taken with a first rounder. They had no where to go but up at the QB position. Of course it was the right move. Taking Luck with the #1 pick was the right move too. Those moves are easy. You and me pull the trigger on both of those. They are no great feats. Peyton was a high cost free agent qb who certainly was on the downside of his career and who had injury issues. It's easy to say now that it was an easy decision to make but there were certainly no guarantees that it would work out so well. My general point about Elway is that he has done an excellent job in being the steward of that SB winning franchise.
FireChan Posted June 3, 2016 Posted June 3, 2016 (edited) Peyton was a high cost free agent qb who certainly was on the downside of his career and who had injury issues. It's easy to say now that it was an easy decision to make but there were certainly no guarantees that it would work out so well. My general point about Elway is that he has done an excellent job in being the steward of that SB winning franchise. It was easy to say then. That's why virtually every team in the league pursued him. Just because it wasn't guaranteed doesn't mean that the low risk wasn't absolutely, positively, 1 billion percent worth the possible reward. Elway did a decent job. But YOUR general point was originally that Elway knows QB's and their values because he signed Peyton, asked Peyton to take a pay cut when he was over the hill and let Osweiler walk. 2 of those were no brainers, and one of them hasn't shown to be the right move or not. Like Kirby said, talent begets talent. Once Denver started going 13-3 and were SB contenders, players were taking cuts to win rings. Again, Elway still found good pieces, but it was a lot easier than how Buffalo has to attract FA's. Edited June 3, 2016 by FireChan
JohnC Posted June 3, 2016 Posted June 3, 2016 I agree in general that Eleay has done a good job but it's been an easy job. Peyton picked him which instantly made them contenders. In turn FAs like Demarcus Ware took less money to go there to compete for a title. Elway was able to acquire "ring chasers" at a fraction of their value because Peyton chose Denver. It's a snowball effect. I respectfully but strenuously disagree with you regarding the inevitability of the Broncos success, even after the acquisition of Manning. Demarcus Ware took less money from the Broncos but he still couldn't be considered a cheap player. There is nothing wrong with selecting one or two year ring chasers. But it has to be done judiciously. New England certainly has smartly signed a number of ring chasers. That shouldn't be a criticism when it is an aspect of the system. The Broncos under Elway have won a SB and have had success under Elway's stewardship (relatively short tenure). Elway hired Kubiak while the Bills hired Rex. Which organization was wiser making crucial hires? I'm not got to scoff at their achievements---I'm going to salute them.
MDH Posted June 3, 2016 Posted June 3, 2016 Always remember the Manning Rule: Mannings play where Mannings want to play. 4 Super Bowl rings later and it appears they've been wise to follow this rule.
JohnC Posted June 3, 2016 Posted June 3, 2016 . Like Kirby said, talent begets talent. Once Denver started going 13-3 and were SB contenders, players were taking cuts to win rings. Again, Elway still found good pieces, but it was a lot easier than how Buffalo has to attract FA's. The primary reason Buffalo has had difficulty signing free agents is that it has a history of being a dismally run operation. There are few limitations for any team to be as successful as any other team, regardless of the market size. The system is designed for parity. The failure of the Bills to attract players or be more successful relates more to their own ineptitude than to outside forces. Under Bill Polian the Bills were certainly an appealing destination for free agents. Prospective free agents knew that if they came to Buffalo they would have a chance to not only be in the playoffs but also have a good chance to be in the SB. My point is simply the Bills are what they are because of how incompetently they have managed their franchise.
FireChan Posted June 3, 2016 Posted June 3, 2016 The primary reason Buffalo has had difficulty signing free agents is that it has a history of being a dismally run operation. There are few limitations for any team to be as successful as any other team, regardless of the market size. The system is designed for parity. The failure of the Bills to attract players or be more successful relates more to their own ineptitude than to outside forces. Under Bill Polian the Bills were certainly an appealing destination for free agents. Prospective free agents knew that if they came to Buffalo they would have a chance to not only be in the playoffs but also have a good chance to be in the SB. My point is simply the Bills are what they are because of how incompetently they have managed their franchise. Under Bill Polian, the Bills were SB contenders most years. You're making my point for me. Denver and NE for the last 4 years have been prime destinations for FA's moreso than any other AFC team because of their post season chances.
JohnC Posted June 3, 2016 Posted June 3, 2016 Under Bill Polian, the Bills were SB contenders most years. You're making my point for me. Denver and NE for the last 4 years have been prime destinations for FA's moreso than any other AFC team because of their post season chances. How do you think that the Bills became a successful operation that was attractive to free agents? Magic. When he took over the football operation the team and franchise were in the dumps. The Bills became a success under his stewardship. It took time. It just didn't happen. Polian earned his success by good drafting and smart personnel moves. Over time the critical mass of good decisions built a foundation for sustained success.
Kirby Jackson Posted June 3, 2016 Posted June 3, 2016 (edited) I respectfully but strenuously disagree with you regarding the inevitability of the Broncos success, even after the acquisition of Manning. Demarcus Ware took less money from the Broncos but he still couldn't be considered a cheap player. There is nothing wrong with selecting one or two year ring chasers. But it has to be done judiciously. New England certainly has smartly signed a number of ring chasers. That shouldn't be a criticism when it is an aspect of the system. The Broncos under Elway have won a SB and have had success under Elway's stewardship (relatively short tenure). Elway hired Kubiak while the Bills hired Rex. Which organization was wiser making crucial hires? I'm not got to scoff at their achievements---I'm going to salute them. I do like the Kubiak hire (a lot). He is very underrated. I think that is the best move that Elway has made to date. A lot of his other moves have been no brainers. In terms of the players being cheap and being below market value are 2 different things. If you have an undrafted guy like Allen Hurns turn in double digit TDs that is a good job by the GM. Signing Demarcus Ware well below market value is a steal. It doesn't mean that he was cheap but it was still an easy decision. For example if you could get Gilmore tomorrow at $8M a year it wouldn't be cheap but it would be an easy decision. The market says that he is worth way more than that. When you have Peyton Manning and an open window some guys will take less money to compete for a championship. Call it the David West effect. I don't give the GM credit for that. I attribute it to the situation. Peyton Manning chose them so in turn Demarcus Ware took less. Elway would have never gotten Ware for that money if Manning picked the Cardinals. New England is a perfect example as well. It is frustrating as a Bills fan too. You could offer a guy a bigger contract but he chooses to go there because they are closer to winning. I always use Tim Murray as an example in this situation. He gets a lot of praise for the job that he has done. He has yet to make a really hard decision though. Should he be praised for talking Eichel or Reinhart? I would have done the same thing. He was able to acquire O'Reilly because he was about to get paid. We still don't know if he has found the goalie. In addition, they have been way below the cap so he has a greater margin for error. He has had an easier job to date than many of his competitors. As time goes by and he has to make tougher decisions we will see how good he is. He may be great. We shouldn't say that he is great though because he selected Eichel. That's basically the Elway point. His job was really easy once Manning picked Denver. We will see moving forward how good he is. Was letting Malik Jackson go a good decision? Osweiler? What about having Von Miller playing on the tag? Paxton Lynch as the QB of the future? This is when his job gets hard. So far (outside of Kubiak) he has done the obvious. The jury is out. How do you think that the Bills became a successful operation that was attractive to free agents? Magic. When he took over the football operation the team and franchise were in the dumps. The Bills became a success under his stewardship. It took time. It just didn't happen. Polian earned his success by good drafting and smart personnel moves. Over time the critical mass of good decisions built a foundation for sustained success. That's kind of apples and oranges too though. The FA system was so much different 25 years ago. Edited June 3, 2016 by Kirby Jackson
Mr. WEO Posted June 3, 2016 Posted June 3, 2016 Where have you heard that the Jets are actively negotiating with Fitz? Where have you heard that they have come off of their tough position? If need be they go with Geno. Is he a better alternative? It doesn't matter. As a long time Bills fan you know that it is not unusual to go with what you got even if what you got is not an appealing option. I'll say to you what I have been saying to Kirby: Don't get caught up how you would analyze the situation and act. Watch what the Jets are doing and how they are reacting and not reacting. That is more illuminating and telling than having outsiders telling them what they should be doing. Or you could just answer the question. Why haven't they just moved on and brought in someone else? Why are they trying to del with Fitz (and to suggest they are not is just bizarre at this point). The Jets are reacting by not dumping Fitz and signing another guy. This much is pretty obvious.
Nanker Posted June 3, 2016 Posted June 3, 2016 Well, who else is out there? A couple of helmet collectors? A game manager or two? Secretly developed rocket-armed super athletic stealth backup? Flotsam and jetsam? And how much money do the JESTS have? I heard it's about $3m without cutting someone or two or three to get real starter-money freed up. They're not in a good position IMO.
iinii Posted June 3, 2016 Posted June 3, 2016 (edited) If Im Fitz I take a 1 year deal in Denver. Load it up with playoff incentives. You aren't Fitz, so.....hypothetically speaking? Interesting how this has turned into a Peyton/Elway calls his shot(s) thread. Too bad Fitz won't sign a deal he doesn't like. Fitz knows this is no bridge year for himself. The chances of Fitz coming out and looking like Aaron Rodgers or Marcia ain't happening and he knows it. He knows he has to get all he can this year and if you haven't heard this one before, I don't think Fitz's heart is "all in." I believe Fitz knows his psyche can't handle another game ending, season ending pick six. Edited June 3, 2016 by iinii
eball Posted June 3, 2016 Posted June 3, 2016 Isn't this really just one big game of chicken? The Jets are banking on Fitz' desire to play being worth more than the extra $$ his market value would dictate. From a Bills-centric perspective, I hope Fitz calls their bluff and just retires (or goes somewhere else). The Jets will absolutely stink if they are forced to go with Geno, Hackysack, or the race car driver behind center.
Beerball Posted June 3, 2016 Posted June 3, 2016 I'm not saying that it was a genius move but it was the right move. It must be recalled that Peyton was a free agent and was checking out the market. Elway got the deal done. It must not be forgotten that it was also a risky move because Peyton had injury issues that made that acquisition somewhat risky. In general I think you would agree that Elway has done a good job in managing the operation in Denver. Directing a franchise that won a SB is not something to scoff at. Being a fan of a team that has been out of the playoffs for a generation I salute his accomplishments. you understand that you're carrying on a conversation with the nittiest of nit pickers, right? Isn't this really just one big game of chicken? The Jets are banking on Fitz' desire to play being worth more than the extra $$ his market value would dictate. From a Bills-centric perspective, I hope Fitz calls their bluff and just retires (or goes somewhere else). The Jets will absolutely stink if they are forced to go with Geno, Hackysack, or the race car driver behind center. yup, what's bad for them is good for us.
boyst Posted June 3, 2016 Posted June 3, 2016 I'm not saying that it was a genius move but it was the right move. It must be recalled that Peyton was a free agent and was checking out the market. Elway got the deal done. It must not be forgotten that it was also a risky move because Peyton had injury issues that made that acquisition somewhat risky. In general I think you would agree that Elway has done a good job in managing the operation in Denver. Directing a franchise that won a SB is not something to scoff at. Being a fan of a team that has been out of the playoffs for a generation I salute his accomplishments. bring ing in Manning was a great move because it was an easy move. Looking back on it its even easier but it was a simple move - Denver needed a qb and would pay enough for a guy that might only play one year and never walk again. He was potentially out of football with injury, maybe should have been. He went to Denver and was benched several times. He lacked physical ability and lost even more strength which was never his strong suit. Drafting Miller was obvious. They'd have got Newton if they could have. They would be in Carolinas shoes if they had, and not had Miller who made a bigger impact than Newton. Elway has done little to show he is a successful gm. He has lost a lot of free agents and can't put together a rhn game to save his life
Kirby Jackson Posted June 3, 2016 Posted June 3, 2016 Isn't this really just one big game of chicken? The Jets are banking on Fitz' desire to play being worth more than the extra $$ his market value would dictate. From a Bills-centric perspective, I hope Fitz calls their bluff and just retires (or goes somewhere else). The Jets will absolutely stink if they are forced to go with Geno, Hackysack, or the race car driver behind center. Well said eball!! The funny part to me is how the Jets are like, "it will be okay. We have other options." Everyone else is like, "I hope to God the Jets start Geno Smith at QB." They are playing a game of chicken that if they lose results in Geno Smith being your QB!!! I'd rather play Russian Roulette
iinii Posted June 3, 2016 Posted June 3, 2016 Isn't this really just one big game of chicken? The Jets are banking on Fitz' desire to play being worth more than the extra $$ his market value would dictate. From a Bills-centric perspective, I hope Fitz calls their bluff and just retires (or goes somewhere else). The Jets will absolutely stink if they are forced to go with Geno, Hackysack, or the race car driver behind center. The Jets better check their bank account.
JohnC Posted June 3, 2016 Posted June 3, 2016 Elway has done little to show he is a successful gm. He has lost a lot of free agents and can't put together a rhn game to save his life The cup he is drinking champagne out of is the SB cup. Not a bad job for someone you are trashing. When your team hasn't been in the playoffs for 16 years and the organization is goofy enough to hire a loud mouth huckster as their HC I wouldn't be so dismissive of the accomplishment of others.
FireChan Posted June 3, 2016 Posted June 3, 2016 you understand that you're carrying on a conversation with the nittiest of nit pickers, right? yup, what's bad for them is good for us. It's not that I'm picking a nit. Rather, it's that I've boiled down JohnC's rationale as to why Fitz has little value to the fundamental assumption that if he did, Elway would go after him because Elway "knows QB's and how to handle them." Now that I've found the assumption that he is basing his opinion on, I can argue that Elway "knowing QB's," is at best arguable and at worst incorrect.
JohnC Posted June 3, 2016 Posted June 3, 2016 Or you could just answer the question. Why haven't they just moved on and brought in someone else? Why are they trying to del with Fitz (and to suggest they are not is just bizarre at this point). The Jets are reacting by not dumping Fitz and signing another guy. This much is pretty obvious. Do you want to know what is also blatantly obvious? From a contract standpoint they are not placing much value on Fitz. It doesn't matter what you and I think. If they can't get a deal done that is closer to their terms than to Fitz's terms they will move on to the next option, whatever it may be. If they don't want to go with what they already have on the roster they will then go out and secure a similar mediocre talent. Mediocrity is very attainable---the market is full of garbage that can be had at a reasonable price. You insist on promoting the notion that Fitz is an invaluable gem that can't be replaced. That is not the case. He is what he has always been: A backup qb who periodically happens to start.
eball Posted June 3, 2016 Posted June 3, 2016 Guys, the worst kept secret in the NFL is that Fitz gives the Jets their best and only hope for the 2016 season. He's familiar with Chan's system, played pretty well in it, and has the chemistry with their skill players. The other QBs on the roster would be backing up Matt Cassel. Beyond 2016 is anyone's guess, but there is little question that if Fitz is not behind center for the Jets this year they will be a heaping pile of garbage on offense.
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