Mr. WEO Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 You could add Fitz to that list too, KJ. Last year was far and away his best year. But it came in his 11th season and despite the playoffs being there for the taking, he **** the bed. Now I like Fitz and think he's a great backup, but there's just something missing when it comes to being a franchise guy. I think the Jets are willing to give him top backup money but nothing more, and I don't see many other teams going beyond that at present. Why should the starting QB accept backup money? That makes no sense.
JohnC Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 Why should the starting QB accept backup money? That makes no sense. It makes a lot of sense. He is a backup caliber of qb. He started on the Jets last year because they had no other options. That is not much of an endorsement for a 14 yr career backup who has moved around the league as if he is a gypsy running from the law. Let's look at Fitz's options: No other team in the league is interested in him as a starter. In addition, no other team in the league is interested in him as a high cost backup. I'm sure the Jets will up their offer with the realization is that hey know what his worth is in the qb market. Fitz is Harvard educated economic major. He knows as well as anyone that he is worth not what he thinks he is worth but that he is worth what the market says he is worth. Fitz had a good year last year as a starter. It was an aberration. Fitz has had a long mediocre career mostly as a backup. That's what he is worth. Good backup money plus a little more.
metzelaars_lives Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 TBD false narrative #331: The level of QB play around the league is down from previous eras. Quite the opposite guys. There are 32 teams so naturally the teams with the 31st and 32nd best QB situations are going to employ guys like Fitzpatrick, Hoyer, etc. There's always been Fitzpatricks and Hoyers. People always rate the best QB's in the league and almost invariably, a guy like Matt Stafford is right around 15th or 16th. Guys, do you really think that in 1976 or 1986 or 1996, the average QB in the league was better than Matt Stafford? There are like five sure fire hall of famers playing right now. You wanna attribute it to rule changes? Fine. But the level of QB play in the NFL has never been better than it is right now.
JohnC Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 TBD false narrative #331: The level of QB play around the league is down from previous eras. Quite the opposite guys. There are 32 teams so naturally the teams with the 31st and 32nd best QB situations are going to employ guys like Fitzpatrick, Hoyer, etc. There's always been Fitzpatricks and Hoyers. People always rate the best QB's in the league and almost invariably, a guy like Matt Stafford is right around 15th or 16th. Guys, do you really think that in 1976 or 1986 or 1996, the average QB in the league was better than Matt Stafford? There are like five sure fire hall of famers playing right now. You wanna attribute it to rule changes? Fine. But the level of QB play in the NFL has never been better than it is right now. The discussion about qb rankings is more than about qb rankings. It is about tiers of qbs and the value associated with that particular tier. Fitz is in a tier of qbs that is in a pedestrian class. Or another way of looking at it is very replaceable without much notice. The Jets have a good understanding where Fitz falls on that totem poll as a starter. He is at or near the bottom. For them he is very expendable when the price exceeds his level of talent and worth.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 Why should the starting QB accept backup money? That makes no sense. Exactly Fitz point - he's essentially saying "you guys want me to start and take all the hits and risk and wear and tear and media heat of a starter, don't offer me backup money, pay me like a starter".
JohnC Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 Exactly Fitz point - he's essentially saying "you guys want me to start and take all the hits and risk and wear and tear and media heat of a starter, don't offer me backup money, pay me like a starter". And with their offer the organization is saying that although he started last year he is not a starting caliber of qb in this league. It's not difficult to understand Fitz's position. But putting aside the Jets team for this discussion is there a team in the league willing to bring on Fitz as a starter? I don't believe so. Eventually Fitz and the Jets will come to terms. But it will not be at the level that Fitz has staked out. For Fitz what are his options? For the Jets pedestrian qbs can be easily had on the market.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 It makes a lot of sense. He is a backup caliber of qb. He started on the Jets last year because they had no other options. That is not much of an endorsement for a 14 yr career backup who has moved around the league as if he is a gypsy running from the law. Let's look at Fitz's options: No other team in the league is interested in him as a starter. In addition, no other team in the league is interested in him as a high cost backup. I'm sure the Jets will up their offer with the realization is that hey know what his worth is in the qb market. Fitz is Harvard educated economic major. He knows as well as anyone that he is worth not what he thinks he is worth but that he is worth what the market says he is worth. Fitz had a good year last year as a starter. It was an aberration. Fitz has had a long mediocre career mostly as a backup. That's what he is worth. Good backup money plus a little more. John, I don't really want to go down the rabbit hole of debating Fitz stats, but last year was actually not an aberration as far as his stats. He threw for higher completion %, better TD/INT ratio, and higher Y/A the previous year in HOU. He threw for lower total yards, because Houston was riding Arian Foster in a run-first O. The only thing that's an outlier is the # of TDs he threw. The difference between being a starter, and a backup, is the bodily wear and tear and risk exposure and hits that the starter takes. If the Jets want to pay him as a backup because "that's what he's worth", then they shouldn't ask him to expose himself to all that.
GA BILLS FAN Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 This is a situation where both sides are right and a deal might not and should not get done. Fitz feel it's not worth it to be starter and take all the hits/pressure and get paid like a backup Jets feel he's the quality of a backup and is being forced into a starter role out of necessity and should be paid based on that I wish the Bills took that approach a few years ago, instead, they paid Fitz starter money and got burned, smart FO's don't do that !
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 And with their offer the organization is saying that although he started last year he is not a starting caliber of qb in this league. It's not difficult to understand Fitz's position. But putting aside the Jets team for this discussion is there a team in the league willing to bring on Fitz as a starter? I don't believe so. Eventually Fitz and the Jets will come to terms. But it will not be at the level that Fitz has staked out. For Fitz what are his options? For the Jets pedestrian qbs can be easily had on the market. Fitz option is to take his $39M career earnings/$24M net worth and make it to all his kids soccer and baseball games. Who are these pedestrian QB that can be easily had on the market instead of Fitz? Please name them.
JohnC Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 John, I don't really want to go down the rabbit hole of debating Fitz stats, but last year was actually not an aberration as far as his stats. He threw for higher completion %, better TD/INT ratio, and higher Y/A the previous year in HOU. He threw for lower total yards, because Houston was riding Arian Foster in a run-first O. The only thing that's an outlier is the # of TDs he threw. The difference between being a starter, and a backup, is the bodily wear and tear and risk exposure and hits that the starter takes. If the Jets want to pay him as a backup because "that's what he's worth", then they shouldn't ask him to expose himself to all that. I'll repeat the question that I asked in a prior post: Name another team that would be interested in Fitz as a starter? Name another team in the league that would be interested in Fitz as a high cost backup? We are not talking fairness here. We are talking what the market is.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 (edited) This is a situation where both sides are right and a deal might not and should not get done. Fitz feel it's not worth it to be starter and take all the hits/pressure and get paid like a backup Jets feel he's the quality of a backup and is being forced into a starter role out of necessity and should be paid based on that I wish the Bills took that approach a few years ago, instead, they paid Fitz starter money and got burned, smart FO's don't do that ! Exactly right, TX. Both sides have a reasonable market position, and a deal likely won't get done unless one side sneezes. The Fitz Bills Contract thing is evaluation of smartness in hindsight. Sometimes guys who've been kicking around for a while have the lightbulb come on and take a legitimate step as QB. In that case it's smart business to lock them up. That is one school of thought for what the Bills ought to do with TT, and if he lights it on fire all season and has other teams bidding for his services, people will be explaining how stupid the Bills FO were to not lock him up this year. So the Bills thought that's where they were with Fitz and the smart thing was to lock him up, and they were mistaken, but they didn't know that then. I thought so too and I was sadly, mistaken. I'll repeat the question that I asked in a prior post: Name another team that would be interested in Fitz as a starter? Name another team in the league that would be interested in Fitz as a high cost backup? We are not talking fairness here. We are talking what the market is. John, all respect, you're looking at "the market" in a very narrow sense. If you want my services, and I look around and say "what are your alternatives?", you can tell me what "the market" says I'm worth, and it doesn't matter. If I perceive you as needing my services, and I'm not willing to provide them to you at the price you name, it doesn't matter whether there are 10 or 0 other organizations bidding for my talent. My services are only subject to what other competing organizations are willing to pay if I'm Vince Young or TO and I've squandered my money and need to work. Otherwise, economically speaking, I can work out in my own private gym, play scrabble and sudoku, and help my kid work on his batting until you meet my price (or don't). That's also a market evaluation. Edited May 2, 2016 by Hopeful
JohnC Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 Fitz option is to take his $39M career earnings/$24M net worth and make it to all his kids soccer and baseball games. Who are these pedestrian QB that can be easily had on the market instead of Fitz? Please name them. Hoyer, McCown, Josh Johnson, McCoy etc. Go check the backup list for each team and you will come up with a surplus of pedestrian qbs. I'm not crticizing Fitz. He has had a long functional career and made a lot of money as mostly a backup qb. If he believes that for his health and well-being it is not worth the risk taking what he considers low ball starting qb money then he should retire. His health and well-being and family considerations certainly should be at the center of his calculation as to whether he should continue playing or retire. My central point in this discussion is what is his worth to the Jets? They have made their position clear with their contract offer. This is a situation where both sides are right and a deal might not and should not get done. Fitz feel it's not worth it to be starter and take all the hits/pressure and get paid like a backup Jets feel he's the quality of a backup and is being forced into a starter role out of necessity and should be paid based on that I wish the Bills took that approach a few years ago, instead, they paid Fitz starter money and got burned, smart FO's don't do that ! You properly framed this issue. What is his worth to the Jets and for Fitz is it worth it to him with respect to his well-being and family considerations. It's a non-sentimental calculation in a non-sentimental (cold blooded) business. It's not an issue of right or wrong as it is an issue of judgment.
Doc Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 And ours read Tyrod, EJ and Jones...Not much of a difference.... I have no doubt the Jets would rather be in the Bills' situation. Why should the starting QB accept backup money? That makes no sense. I never said he should accept it. I'm saying they're probably offering him back up or slightly more money as a stopgap until Hackenburg starts in 2017.
JohnC Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 (edited) John, all respect, you're looking at "the market" in a very narrow sense. If you want my services, and I look around and say "what are your alternatives?", you can tell me what "the market" says I'm worth, and it doesn't matter. If I perceive you as needing my services, and I'm not willing to provide them to you at the price you name, it doesn't matter whether there are 10 or 0 other organizations bidding for my talent. My services are only subject to what other competing organizations are willing to pay if I'm Vince Young or TO and I've squandered my money and need to work. Otherwise, economically speaking, I can work out in my own private gym, play scrabble and sudoku, and help my kid work on his batting until you meet my price (or don't). That's also a market evaluation. No one is arguing that Fitz doesn't have the right to leave the game if he decides the offer isn't worth the risk. The bottom line is that in this negotiation the Jets do hold the cards as to whether Fitz will play for them at a particular price. The Jets have placed a value on Fitz and it appears that they are sticking to that range. That is similar to what the Broncos did with Osweiler. They placed a value on him and weren't willing to go higher. Osweiller had options in the market and signed a lucrative contract with Houston. That is not the case for Fitz who has minimal leverage in the negotiation. Edited May 2, 2016 by JohnC
BarleyNY Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 I never said he should accept it. I'm saying they're probably offering him back up or slightly more money as a stopgap until Hackenburg starts in 2017. LMAO at the thought of Hack starting in 2017! Seriously, the Jest need a plan that involves an actual NFL caliber QB. Geno and Petty aren't that and Hack is a longshot. Fitzy is as close as they are going to get right now - and he's just a stopgap. I don't blame them for not wanting to pony up for him, but what choice do they have? I only hope Taylor improves or the Bills might be in a similar spot a year from now.
Doc Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 LMAO at the thought of Hack starting in 2017! Seriously, the Jest need a plan that involves an actual NFL caliber QB. Geno and Petty aren't that and Hack is a longshot. Fitzy is as close as they are going to get right now - and he's just a stopgap. I don't blame them for not wanting to pony up for him, but what choice do they have? I only hope Taylor improves or the Bills might be in a similar spot a year from now. I don't think it's a good plan, but it's their plan. They didn't draft Hack just to let him sit on the bench for 2+ years. So any interest in Fitz is as a stopgap,meaning a short contract for low money. Not that they can afford anything with their cap situation.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 (edited) Hoyer, McCown, Josh Johnson, McCoy etc. Go check the backup list for each team and you will come up with a surplus of pedestrian qbs. (to TX) You properly framed this issue. What is his worth to the Jets and for Fitz is it worth it to him with respect to his well-being and family considerations. It's a non-sentimental calculation in a non-sentimental (cold blooded) business. It's not an issue of right or wrong as it is an issue of judgment. No, John, sorry, you're switching the frame. Your original claim was "pedestrian QB can be easily had on the market". Hoyer was available, had statistical comparabilities to Fitz and at least one team that preferred him in the past, and has now signed with the Bears - the Jets had their chance and passed, so he is not on the market. McCown is under contract to the Cleveland Browns, he is not available. Who are these pedestrian QB, comparable to Fitz, who can be easily had on the market? I'm glad to see that when talking to someone else, you're able to acknowledge that it's a non-sentimental market decision on BOTH sides, not simply an issue of "market value" from the Jets side. Edited May 2, 2016 by Hopeful
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 I don't think it's a good plan, but it's their plan. They didn't draft Hack just to let him sit on the bench for 2+ years. So any interest in Fitz is as a stopgap,meaning a short contract for low money. Not that they can afford anything with their cap situation. What a difference a round makes. Hack gets a year to sit (maybe), without the guarantee of a great veteran mentor ahead of him. Poor Hack.
Mr. WEO Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 It makes a lot of sense. He is a backup caliber of qb. He started on the Jets last year because they had no other options. That is not much of an endorsement for a 14 yr career backup who has moved around the league as if he is a gypsy running from the law. Let's look at Fitz's options: No other team in the league is interested in him as a starter. In addition, no other team in the league is interested in him as a high cost backup. I'm sure the Jets will up their offer with the realization is that hey know what his worth is in the qb market. Fitz is Harvard educated economic major. He knows as well as anyone that he is worth not what he thinks he is worth but that he is worth what the market says he is worth. Fitz had a good year last year as a starter. It was an aberration. Fitz has had a long mediocre career mostly as a backup. That's what he is worth. Good backup money plus a little more. Fitz has been a starter on every team every year for the past 8 years. You must be joking--backup caliber? Look around the league at some of the "starter caliber" QBs. The concept you can't understand is that there is no other QB on that roster who can win 6 games, let alone 10. You would let a cagey/tough vet playing his best football walk... over a few million a year? "The market" IS the Jets. What are they going to do, trot out Geno Smith for a lost season or two until Hackenberg shows he's another bust? You would make a great Jets GM... I don't think it's a good plan, but it's their plan. They didn't draft Hack just to let him sit on the bench for 2+ years. So any interest in Fitz is as a stopgap,meaning a short contract for low money. Not that they can afford anything with their cap situation. I'm sure they thought the same about Geno....and when he crapped out, Petty.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 No one is arguing that Fitz doesn't have the right to leave the game if he decides the offer isn't worth the risk. The bottom line is that in this negotiation the Jets do hold the cards as to whether Fitz will play for them at a particular price. The Jets have placed a value on Fitz and it appears that they are sticking to that range. That is similar to what the Broncos did with Osweiler. They placed a value on him and weren't willing to go higher. Osweiller had options in the market and signed a lucrative contract with Houston. That is not the case for Fitz who has minimal leverage in the negotiation. The late Eugene Parker had a saying “Leverage depends not about what you have, but what you’re willing to do". The point is, as long as Fitz has options other than "play for the Jets at their price" (and he does), he has just as much leverage as if he had other teams waiting to sign him. He may not have options to start for other teams, but he does have leverage.
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