3rdand12 Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 At this point, I would rather pay Gilmore than Taylor Ha. Good thing we do not have to choose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 I'm not really changing my point; I'm saying that the examples of teams that weren't paying top dollar are also teams that weren't far off from doing so; the contrast is hardly stark. I definitely don't agree on Glenn. You're telling me that you'd feel totally confident that we'd have the #1 rushing offense and that Taylor would put up the same numbers if Cyrus Kouandjio were starting at LT last year? I think you're on an island with that one. As to Gilmore's impact, Darby wasn't the next man up behind Gilmore--he was the next man up behind McKelvin; a much lesser player. It's also no coincidence that Darby's play tailed off once Gilmore got hurt (in the very same game even). You may be comfortable saying that there's no difference between Gilmore and Kevon Seymour/Corey White/Sterling Moore, but again, I think you're on an island with that opinion. The point re: Glenn, run blocking is an ensemble effort. I don't think you have to pay "franchise LT" money to get that kind of production. Not Cyrus, but used bin guys like Jake Long could do just as well as Glenn for less. Regarding Darby, he was the next CB drafted and he immediately outplayed Leodis and rendered him completely expendable, just like that. Gilmore is better than the guys who will replace him, but I don't see the Defense giving up more points this season because Gilmore isn't there any more. It's not going to happen--let alone would paying him top 5 have any connection whatsoever to the Bills winning a SB or even competing in one. ...which brings us to your point with SB winners and paying top dollar for their CBs, it's such a moving target (go back and read your original post) that I'm going to bail out on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8-8 Forever? Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 At this point, I would rather pay Gilmore than Taylor that may be why they are waiting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 that may be why they are waiting Gilmore is just looking for the best deal he can get and that means negotiating up to the last minute. That might be TC, the first preseason game or the first regular season game, depending upon what he's comfortable with. I highly doubt that there's more to it than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 The point re: Glenn, run blocking is an ensemble effort. I don't think you have to pay "franchise LT" money to get that kind of production. Not Cyrus, but used bin guys like Jake Long could do just as well as Glenn for less. Regarding Darby, he was the next CB drafted and he immediately outplayed Leodis and rendered him completely expendable, just like that. Gilmore is better than the guys who will replace him, but I don't see the Defense giving up more points this season because Gilmore isn't there any more. It's not going to happen--let alone would paying him top 5 have any connection whatsoever to the Bills winning a SB or even competing in one. ...which brings us to your point with SB winners and paying top dollar for their CBs, it's such a moving target (go back and read your original post) that I'm going to bail out on this one. I generally agree that no one player (other than a QB) is too great a loss to overcome if the depth, coaching, and scheme are well established. I don't, however, agree that certain guys can simply be replaced "next man up" style and expect a seamless transition. Vis-à-vis: I don't think there's a single coach in the NFL that believes Jake Long for Cordy Glenn is an even swap. I guess my point is that it seems like we should expect any old 2nd round pick to come in and replace Gilmore because Darby was able to have some success as a rookie, but that same logic can't be applied to LT, another position to which you admittedly aren't keen on paying premium money (i.e. Kouandjio is the literal definition of "any old 2nd round pick", and there's little doubt that he cannot step in for Glenn if needed). Anyway, I'm fine bailing on this discussion as well. I'm fairly certain that we both believe in our points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 I generally agree that no one player (other than a QB) is too great a loss to overcome if the depth, coaching, and scheme are well established. I don't, however, agree that certain guys can simply be replaced "next man up" style and expect a seamless transition. Vis-à-vis: I don't think there's a single coach in the NFL that believes Jake Long for Cordy Glenn is an even swap. I guess my point is that it seems like we should expect any old 2nd round pick to come in and replace Gilmore because Darby was able to have some success as a rookie, but that same logic can't be applied to LT, another position to which you admittedly aren't keen on paying premium money (i.e. Kouandjio is the literal definition of "any old 2nd round pick", and there's little doubt that he cannot step in for Glenn if needed). Anyway, I'm fine bailing on this discussion as well. I'm fairly certain that we both believe in our points. Glenn was a 2nd round pick. Peters was an undrafted FA. LTs that suffice can be found. History is clear--bad and mediocre teams paying top dollar (or drafting high in the first round) for LTs never get value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 So what position, besides quarterback, it's worth spending a lot of money on? You could argue that none of them are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blokestradamus Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 So what position, besides quarterback, it's worth spending a lot of money on? You could argue that none of them are. I break the importance of positions down as: Pass throwers (QB) Pass rushers (DE/OLB/DT) Pass catchers/stoppers (WR/CB) Pass protectors (OL) You nail down those cornerstones when you have them. The Bills have done so with Hughes, Dareus, Glenn & Incognito in recent years. The great/elite OL doesn't have to be OT either, G/C are intregal to giving a QB time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) So what position, besides quarterback, it's worth spending a lot of money on? You could argue that none of them are. For me it is pass rusher, pass catcher & corner (in no particular order). Guys that can impact a game on their own. A corner is almost the opposite that they can negatively impact a game. I just believe that it is the hardest position to play (besides QB) and the drop off between the top and the bottom can be a huge difference. The difference from Richard Sherman to Chris Watson impacts a game much more than the drop off from Incognito to Colin Brown for example. You can try to hide Brown, but you cant hide a corner that cant cover. They get picked on. A stud LT is kind of an exception (and I think that we have one). I am okay paying him as well but it would come after those other positions in terms of priority. Edited June 21, 2016 by Kirby Jackson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) Glenn was a 2nd round pick. Peters was an undrafted FA. LTs that suffice can be found. History is clear--bad and mediocre teams paying top dollar (or drafting high in the first round) for LTs never get value. Wow. Using Peters as your example is like saying the Bills should just draft their HoF QB in the 6th round like the Pats did. And you actually said that "bad and mediocre teams" don't get value from paying top dollar to LTs. Do they get value from paying anyone any amount since they're bad/mediocre teams? What about good and great teams that pay top dollar to their CBs and LTs? Do they get value? And I don't even totally disagree about OTs. It's better to have two very solid OTs than one great one and one sub-mediocre one. Exceptional OTs are a luxury. But your reasoning and over-statements are terrible. Edited June 21, 2016 by BarleyNY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) So what position, besides quarterback, it's worth spending a lot of money on? You could argue that none of them are. If I'm assuming that a team can easily afford to pay 5 premium salaries (I think it could be as many as 6 depending upon the cap, but 5 for certain), then here's my list: QB (obviously) CB Pass rusher OT Pass catcher ^ in that order Edited June 21, 2016 by thebandit27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) WEO is really channeling his inner Ralph Wilson here. This kind of thinking is a major part of our decades of futility, and reputation as a 2nd rate organization. We're talking LT, #1CB, and QB here. You MUST re-sign these positions when your draft well. The turnstyle "next man up" philosophy is what we need to get away from. Edited June 21, 2016 by DrDareustein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted June 21, 2016 Author Share Posted June 21, 2016 @billsupdates Marcell Dareus' contract advice to Stephon Gilmore: Be patient and do your job http://trib.al/Z9wmnR0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted June 21, 2016 Author Share Posted June 21, 2016 @SiriusXMNFL NEW at SiriusXM NFL Radio Blog: Marcell Dareus to #Bills’ teammate Stephon Gilmore: "Be patient" https://goo.gl/krhQbH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 WEO is really channeling his inner Ralph Wilson here. This kind of thinking is a major part of our decades of futility, and reputation as a 2nd rate organization. We're talking LT, #1CB, and QB here. You MUST re-sign these positions when your draft well. The turnstyle "next man up" philosophy is what we need to get away from. Dr. I totally understand your stance....but I have to ask the question. If Gilmore's contract demands are in the 15 million range.......and we know that we have a Sammy Watkins contract sitting out there in the future.....does it makes sense to give him a contract that high? We have been operating on the fact that we didnt have a QB worth spit for years.....and now we might have one that is actually worth keeping and that is gonna back the brinks truck up there. I WANT to keep Gilmore.....I am just not sure we can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Wow. Using Peters as your example is like saying the Bills should just draft their HoF QB in the 6th round like the Pats did. And you actually said that "bad and mediocre teams" don't get value from paying top dollar to LTs. Do they get value from paying anyone any amount since they're bad/mediocre teams? What about good and great teams that pay top dollar to their CBs and LTs? Do they get value? And I don't even totally disagree about OTs. It's better to have two very solid OTs than one great one and one sub-mediocre one. Exceptional OTs are a luxury. But your reasoning and over-statements are terrible. Do great teams pay top dollar for their CBs? You might want to scroll through the past several pages as that has been discussed quite a lot already. The point about drafting LTs high in the first round you clearly didn't get. What value are the Saints getting for paying Armstead 16+ million this year? How about the Skins with Trent Williams at 13.6? The Browns had been paying Joe Thomas...for what? What has Peters done for the fortunes of the Eagles offense? How's Luck's protection with a top 6 LT? Conversely, Okung and Solder make millions less than the top LTs. the Cardinals LT makes just over 1/3 what Armstead will make this year. Same for the SB runnerup Panther's Oher. WEO is really channeling his inner Ralph Wilson here. This kind of thinking is a major part of our decades of futility, and reputation as a 2nd rate organization. We're talking LT, #1CB, and QB here. You MUST re-sign these positions when your draft well. The turnstyle "next man up" philosophy is what we need to get away from. No the decades of futility have come not from letting guys like Winfield and Clements and Peters go--it's from not drafting a reliable starting QB. Not sure how you could claim otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Dr. I totally understand your stance....but I have to ask the question. If Gilmore's contract demands are in the 15 million range.......and we know that we have a Sammy Watkins contract sitting out there in the future.....does it makes sense to give him a contract that high? We have been operating on the fact that we didnt have a QB worth spit for years.....and now we might have one that is actually worth keeping and that is gonna back the brinks truck up there. I WANT to keep Gilmore.....I am just not sure we can. Of course Bills can. Do they need to? Do they wish to ? and where else are they willing to compromise ? Bills valued Glenn and Dareus, Hughes and Cogs. I dont think it is money per se, as it is value to the team. They found more money than i thought they had already twice this offseason and have 12 mill banked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8-8 Forever? Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 (edited) Gilmore is just looking for the best deal he can get and that means negotiating up to the last minute. That might be TC, the first preseason game or the first regular season game, depending upon what he's comfortable with. I highly doubt that there's more to it than that. I would need to understand the team's salary cap situation. My assumption is they cannot afford both TT and SG at near max numbers, meaning they cannot reasonably sign SG now and must wait until they know what they will do with TT. If the cap hit for both is somehow manageable (which is hard to imagine, with Shady, Dareus, Glenn, Hughes, etc, then yes hang out until the last minute get the best deal , then he goes out and gets hurt immediately (which always happens to holdouts), lose the season and go from there. This SG thing cannot end well. SG ends up either franchised/pissed/unproductive, gone or hurt. Can't trade him bc he's not signed. These things always go this way with DBs. Look at the history. I would let him walk, hate to say it, but he is not a top 5 guy, maybe top 10 maybe but in Rex' defense, don't need top 10 corners. Ball comes out too fast for it to matter. Plus Watkins will probably have a great season and will need to be signed soon and WR is critical position in today's NFL. Edited June 22, 2016 by 8and8-->NoMore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted June 22, 2016 Author Share Posted June 22, 2016 @SalSports Source: Bills, Taylor continue dialogue; both sides "open" to in-season extension: http://www.wgr550.com/Source-Bills-Taylor-continue-dialogue-both-sides-o/22786989 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Jerky Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 (edited) I would need to understand the team's salary cap situation. My assumption is they cannot afford both TT and SG at near max numbers, meaning they cannot reasonably sign SG now and must wait until they know what they will do with TT. If the cap hit for both is somehow manageable (which is hard to imagine, with Shady, Dareus, Glenn, Hughes, etc, then yes hang out until the last minute get the best deal , then he goes out and gets hurt immediately (which always happens to holdouts), lose the season and go from there. This SG thing cannot end well. SG ends up either franchised/pissed/unproductive, gone or hurt. Can't trade him bc he's not signed. These things always go this way with DBs. Look at the history. I would let him walk, hate to say it, but he is not a top 5 guy, maybe top 10 maybe but in Rex' defense, don't need top 10 corners. Ball comes out too fast for it to matter. Plus Watkins will probably have a great season and will need to be signed soon and WR is critical position in today's NFL. If Gilmore ends up unproductive then that is his own fault. Contract negotiations between the agent and team should have no effect on the player unless that player isn't really as good as he thinks. Edited June 22, 2016 by Beef Jerky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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