Nix vs. Whaley, the final showdown

[LeGOATski]

No he wasn't, stop being stupid. Everyone knows Whaley was in the driver's seat for the 2013 draft. It's common knowledge.

Just playing by your rules, man.

 

I agree. It is stupid.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Let's not act like there hasn't been improvement over the course of Nix/Whaley. Has it been as fast as we'd like? Nope. Are we where we need to be? Not yet. But has the team improved? Very much so. Can't believe it takes a chart to lay it out.

 

 

BillsWinningPct.PNG

 

yeah 6-10 to 8-8 big improvement , we have pretty much been the same

[FireChan]

Just playing by your rules, man.

 

I agree. It is stupid.

Personally, I think you're just not making sense. You're talking in circles.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

This is absolutely not how it went, otherwise you're completely correct.

 

really, Nix definitely said he was going to getting us Franchise QB before he retired, so it is absolutely how it went and you are wrong

[pi2000]

Tom Donahoe > Whaley > Nix

[LeGOATski]

Personally, I think you're just not making sense. You're talking in circles.

You can't argue the QB issue. I understand.

[thebandit27]

Tom Donahoe > Whaley > Nix

 

The guy that traded a first round pick to move up and draft JP Losman, and spent a top-5 pick on Mike Williams?

 

Or the guy that had 2 cracks at hiring a head coach, and ended up with Gregg Williams and Mike Mularkey?

 

[FireChan]

 

really, Nix definitely said he was going to getting us Franchise QB before he retired, so it is absolutely how it went and you are wrong

And it's been shown again and again Whaley was in the driver's seat for the 2013 draft. Nix did not make a pick then retire one month later.

 

Cordy Glenn is also nothing but a guard, am I right? Time to stop taking predraft talk as Gospel.

You can't argue the QB issue. I understand.

No, you're just taking in circles. It's quite simple. Whaley was de facto GM in 2013. He drafted EJ, traded for Cassel and signed TT. However, we know for a fact that our HC only openly recruited and sought one of those 3 players. Thus, Whaley gets less blame/credit for said player in relation to the other two.

 

Easy peasy.

Edited April 8, 2016 by FireChan

[LeGOATski]

And it's been shown again and again Whaley was in the driver's seat for the 2013 draft. Nix did not make a pick then retire one month later.

 

No, you're just taking in circles. It's quite simple. Whaley was de facto GM in 2013. He drafted EJ, traded for Cassel and signed TT. However, we know for a fact that our HC only openly recruited and sought one of those 3 players. Thus, Whaley gets less blame/credit for said player in relation to the other two.

 

Easy peasy.

 

Under the context of BuffaloBill's last post, Whaley got a good QB and Nix never did.

 

You successfully side-stepped that point. You can address it now, if you'd like.

[FireChan]

 

Under the context of BuffaloBill's last post, Whaley got a good QB and Nix never did.

 

You successfully side-stepped that point. You can address it now, if you'd like.

Utilitarianism is a stupid and flawed way of thinking. Your inane argument would make Grigson one of the best GM's in the NFL. No one is buying that.

[LeGOATski]

Utilitarianism is a stupid and flawed way of thinking. Your inane argument would make Grigson one of the best GM's in the NFL. No one is buying that.

No one here is disregarding the rest of Nix's/Whaley's work.

 

If you're not going to put any effort into this, I won't either.

[FireChan]

No one here is disregarding the rest of Nix's/Whaley's work.

 

If you're not going to put any effort into this, I won't either.

You aren't even making an argument. I will put forth effort when you do.

[DrDawkinstein]

No one here is disregarding the rest of Nix's/Whaley's work.

 

If you're not going to put any effort into this, I won't either.

 

FC is only here to argue any and every point, because he cant take another Rex/Tyrod thread

[LeGOATski]

You aren't even making an argument. I will put forth effort when you do.

Lol. This is basically a "no I'm not, you are!" type of response.

 

Nice.

 

FC is only here to argue any and every point, because he cant take another Rex/Tyrod thread

I think he's tired out. Poor guy needs a nap.

[dpberr]

I think Buddy Nix brought the Bills back into civilization after the terrible Levy/Brandon years.

 

Nix built the foundation of the new house. Whaley has added the first and second floors.

[Nanker]

I'm not so sure at all about the final showdown.

 

The final countdown how ever...

http://youtu.be/iH1biQdyiQI

Edited April 8, 2016 by Nanker

[FireChan]

 

FC is only here to argue any and every point, because he cant take another Rex/Tyrod thread

It's my topic and I'll post 100 times if I !@#$ing want to.

 

Lol. This is basically a "no I'm not, you are!" type of response.

 

Nice.

I think he's tired out. Poor guy needs a nap.

Not even a little. I think I've made a bunch of arguments. Buddy acquired a ton of (really excellent) talent and I think he's unfairly disparaged. I think that Whaley gets too much credit for some acquisitions, and I think he gets not enough blame for others. I've backed all of that up.

 

As much as I've enjoyed your last 3 pages or so of posts, I don't think you've really said anything of substance. You talked yourself in circles, then came at me for "not putting any effort" when you've done nothing but say no for, again, 3 pages. Accusing me of "not putting in effort" after blaming Marrone for the EJ pick? That's intellectually dishonest and frankly beneath me to even discuss.

 

As for "Whaley acquired a QB, who cares if the HC his owners hired was pounding on the table for him, it still makes him a great GM" is the definition of inane utilitarianism thinking. The process of acquiring talent will always matter. I bet you think Whaley is sly as a fox for answering a call from a HC/GM who made psychotic personnel moves that ultimately got him fired. Trading a 1 year LB for a top 5 RB when you don't have RB's when you have the trade basically thrown in your face, frankly is just not that impressive. Whaley did nothing for that transaction but answer the phone. But you'd sit there and tell me how it's proof how "good" he is at his job. Not buying that. You and I both have the aptitude to make that trade, and we both would, with the same result. Would that make us stellar GMs? Remember when Whaley offered a ridiculous contract to CJ Spiller, who is one of the worst RB's in the NFL and was one of the biggest bust FA signings for the Saints? Oh, but we didn't sign him because Chip was drunk throwing around assets. Great move Whaley! True talent-evaluation savvy.

 

As I alluded to earlier, Grigson fell into the Luck pick and has sucked elsewhere. if you weren't flip-flopping on your stance, that'd put him above the 20 or so GMs that don't have a franchise QB right? Yep. He found the most important player on the field who is a surefire star. If you were intellectually honest, you'd see that's the exact same argument you put forth for Whaley over Buddy Finding the franchise QB. Irrespective of how he got there. Again, total nonsense.

Edited April 8, 2016 by FireChan

[Nihilarian]

When Rex was hired I felt that it was a weird hiring. They hired someone who finished his tenure with the Jets with a four win season. They hired someone who after six or seven years had a losing record. What was the appeal?

 

But regardless of his previous record you hope that he will help the team that was moving forward continue to move in the right direction. The GM focused his attention in the offseason addreassing the offense with the expectation that the highly ranked defense (with flaws) would play near its standard of the previous year.

 

Last year the Bills were talented enough to be a wildcard team. Whaley accomplished what he wanted to do with the defense. What sabotaged the team was the performance of the defense. I blame the Head Coach for that failure. The defense that performed very well under two different DCs didn't play to the level of its talent. The defense was in a state of disarray. I blame Rex for that because that was the focus of his coaching.

 

There were other alternative candidate coaches. Hue Jackson would have been a good hire. Not a sexy hire but a good hire. I would have preferred Schwartz over the bombastic Rex. I would have preferred Roman over the loquacious Rex.

 

If you want to consider the job that Rex did last year as a being good that is your judgment. In my view he was a failure. If you are satisfied with Rex then that is fine. I simply have a different standard.

I couldn't believe the hire of a head coach that just finished a six-year run with the Jets team in a downward spiral getting progressively worse and ending at 4-12. The main excuse was the GM screwed him by not getting the players needed for his defense and wanted him fired. I suppose that also happened for the 2011 season, the 2012 season, the 2013 season?

 

I was laughing at Rex Ryan on the sidelines of the NY Jets games during that 2014 season mostly because he looked so lost as the Bills beat the Jets 42-23 in a Jets 6 turnover debacle with Geno throwing 3 INT's and Vick throwing one pick. That game was laughable as the Bills dominated the hapless Jets. Then for the next game Rex Ryan boasted in the NY media that his Jets would play 1000% better in the second game against Buffalo. Only the second loss was worse for the Jets going 38-3 with the Bills getting 7 sacks on Jets QB's. What complete domination by Buffalo!

 

Was anyone in the Bills FO watching these games?

 

 

Anyway, the only thing that makes sense to me in the hire of Ryan is that someone in the Bills FO saw that ex-Bills DC Mike Pettine was groomed as a DC under Rex Ryan in NY and the Bills defense were somewhat successful running Ryan's blitz-heavy scheme with Pettine in Buffalo in 2013. This way the defensive players on the roster would still be max utilized the same way Pettine used them. Now only better because the master of the "overload Blitz" would be running the show...right?

 

The problems arose for the Bills defense in 2015 when Rex decided that because Pettine's defense in Buffalo was so bad against the run (28th) that he would stop calling all the blitzing and run mostly a two gap scheme to help stop the run. What happened then was the Bills did get better at stopping the run! But that two-gap scheme came at the expense of almost no pressure on opposing QB's and very few sacks. If not for Gilmore and Darby playing so well almost all season the defense would have been so much worse.

 

So now that the team is 100% behind Ryan for another year the team now will change the defensive personnel to run his 3-4 scheme. Seems to me that the Bills spent the better part of their draft picks under Jauron to find players for his Tampa two and then had a failed attempt to switch from a 4-3 to a 3-4 in 2010 under new DC George Edwards. Then a year later the team went back to the 4-3 and when that still didn't work the team promoted Dave Wannstedt to DC but the defense was still in the bottom third of the league.

 

All that switching schemes did was waste time and energy in finding players to fit those schemes and then when the Bills finally find a top defensive coordinator to make that 4-3 scheme work into a top #4 defense. They decide to crap can the entire thing and let the guy leave. Now, that is some backward progress again.

 

Yes, it's only been one year. But after watching this team fall on its face the last 15 years it doesn't take a great deal of football knowledge to see ineptitude starting again. Specifically in another supposed guru who specializes in one area of the team who fails in his particular job.

 

Dick Jauron, a supposed defensive guru with his Tampa Two in that he never did find the linebackers needed to run that scheme successfully over his four years and the best to ever did in Buffalo was his defense finishing 14th and best win season was 7-9.

 

Chan Gailey, a supposed QB guru who couldn't see the difference between Fitz, Trent Edwards, Brian Brohm and ended up with a journeyman QB in Fitz who stated that nobody had ever worked with him on his mechanics in his last year in Buffalo. So much for being a QB guru and the best he did in Buffalo was 6-10.

 

Doug Marrone an ex-NFL O-lineman, an ex-NFL O-line coach and a supposed offensive line guru fielded about the very worst offensive line the team has seen in its entire history at being 32nd most of the 2014 season. If not for Jim Schwartz as the Bills DC and the defensive being a top #4 unit that year the team would have ended the season much worse then 9-7.

 

Now, Rex Ryan who was supposed to field a defense for the ages in being the next 85 Bears or 2000 Ravens defense and not only did the defense go from #4 to #19th in total defense. The sack master himself set a franchise worst sack record with just 21 sacks for the entire season with the Buffalo Bills going from best in the NFL to second to last in one year.

[JohnC]

I couldn't believe the hire of a head coach that just finished a six-year run with the Jets team in a downward spiral getting progressively worse and ending at 4-12. The main excuse was the GM screwed him by not getting the players needed for his defense and wanted him fired. I suppose that also happened for the 2011 season, the 2012 season, the 2013 season?

 

I was laughing at Rex Ryan on the sidelines of the NY Jets games during that 2014 season mostly because he looked so lost as the Bills beat the Jets 42-23 in a Jets 6 turnover debacle with Geno throwing 3 INT's and Vick throwing one pick. That game was laughable as the Bills dominated the hapless Jets. Then for the next game Rex Ryan boasted in the NY media that his Jets would play 1000% better in the second game against Buffalo. Only the second loss was worse for the Jets going 38-3 with the Bills getting 7 sacks on Jets QB's. What complete domination by Buffalo!

 

Was anyone in the Bills FO watching these games?

 

 

Anyway, the only thing that makes sense to me in the hire of Ryan is that someone in the Bills FO saw that ex-Bills DC Mike Pettine was groomed as a DC under Rex Ryan in NY and the Bills defense were somewhat successful running Ryan's blitz-heavy scheme with Pettine in Buffalo in 2013. This way the defensive players on the roster would still be max utilized the same way Pettine used them. Now only better because the master of the "overload Blitz" would be running the show...right?

 

The problems arose for the Bills defense in 2015 when Rex decided that because Pettine's defense in Buffalo was so bad against the run (28th) that he would stop calling all the blitzing and run mostly a two gap scheme to help stop the run. What happened then was the Bills did get better at stopping the run! But that two-gap scheme came at the expense of almost no pressure on opposing QB's and very few sacks. If not for Gilmore and Darby playing so well almost all season the defense would have been so much worse.

 

So now that the team is 100% behind Ryan for another year the team now will change the defensive personnel to run his 3-4 scheme. Seems to me that the Bills spent the better part of their draft picks under Jauron to find players for his Tampa two and then had a failed attempt to switch from a 4-3 to a 3-4 in 2010 under new DC George Edwards. Then a year later the team went back to the 4-3 and when that still didn't work the team promoted Dave Wannstedt to DC but the defense was still in the bottom third of the league.

 

All that switching schemes did was waste time and energy in finding players to fit those schemes and then when the Bills finally find a top defensive coordinator to make that 4-3 scheme work into a top #4 defense. They decide to crap can the entire thing and let the guy leave. Now, that is some backward progress again.

 

Yes, it's only been one year. But after watching this team fall on its face the last 15 years it doesn't take a great deal of football knowledge to see ineptitude starting again. Specifically in another supposed guru who specializes in one area of the team who fails in his particular job.

 

Dick Jauron, a supposed defensive guru with his Tampa Two in that he never did find the linebackers needed to run that scheme successfully over his four years and the best to ever did in Buffalo was his defense finishing 14th and best win season was 7-9.

 

Chan Gailey, a supposed QB guru who couldn't see the difference between Fitz, Trent Edwards, Brian Brohm and ended up with a journeyman QB in Fitz who stated that nobody had ever worked with him on his mechanics in his last year in Buffalo. So much for being a QB guru and the best he did in Buffalo was 6-10.

 

Doug Marrone an ex-NFL O-lineman, an ex-NFL O-line coach and a supposed offensive line guru fielded about the very worst offensive line the team has seen in its entire history at being 32nd most of the 2014 season. If not for Jim Schwartz as the Bills DC and the defensive being a top #4 unit that year the team would have ended the season much worse then 9-7.

 

Now, Rex Ryan who was supposed to field a defense for the ages in being the next 85 Bears or 2000 Ravens defense and not only did the defense go from #4 to #19th in total defense. The sack master himself set a franchise worst sack record with just 21 sacks for the entire season with the Buffalo Bills going from best in the NFL to second to last in one year.

Good coaches in all sports are flexible and adaptable to the talent they are working with. Being wedded to a system regardless of the players strengths and weaknesses is an archaic approach in a sport where the opposition coaches are constantly adjusting to what you are doing.

 

All teams have core systems on offense and defense. That is not what I am criticizing Rex for. It was the gross mismatch of utilizing the talents of some of his players on the DL that negatively impacted the backside of the defense, mostly the LBing corps.

 

There is no one way to being effective. Pettine's scheme certainly was different from Schwartz's scheme. Yet they both were good defenses. What Rex did was by trying to address a weakness in the run game on defense (as you noted) he created a bigger weakness in the lack of pressure on the offense. What Rex did was take his best pass rusher in Mario and render him useless. To a lesser extent he took Dareus, one of the best interior pass rushers in the game, and he flattened out his penetrating game.

 

The argument that some people make against my criticisms of Rex is that this was Rex's first year with the team. That is a nonsense position to take. The organization made a conscience effort to hire a coach with head coaching experience. This was not supposed to be a learning curve year for the new coach or the team. In addition, Rex was coming to a team in his division so he was familiar with its personnel before he even parachuted in to western NY. This team had enough talent to be a playoff team (wildcard). It was held back by a limited coach who in his attempt to outsmart others ended up out smarting himself. Now the organization is going through the process of adjusting the the HC when the right approach was for the HC to adjust to the talent he had on hand.

 

When Rex got fired from the Jets his team won 4 games. The new coach who lacked the animated personality of the coach he replaced won ten games in his first season. The same fired HC goes to Buffalo and takes over a team that was upgraded (mostly on offense) from when the previous dour disciplinarian coached.. Although Marrone certainly was unlikable (insufferable arsehole) no one can fairly say that he didn't do more with less than the loquacious head coach who followed him.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

Now, I want to put to bed this misconception that Nix was a bumbling fool that Whaley had to overcome. Here's a compilation of their greatest hits, acquired and drafted players.

 

Buddy:

Dareus

AW

Searcy

Gilmore

Glenn

Bradham

Carrington

Spiller

Mario

Fitzy

 

Whaley:

Woods

McCoy

SWAT

Darby

Karlos

Incognito and Taylor (I put these more with Rex, TBH)

Seantrel

Hughes

Clay

 

Who did better? I think I'm taking Nix.

These lists are not complete. I count only 4 players on the nix list that worked out better than Manny Lawson yet Lawson is not mentioned. Where are Corey Graham nickell robey and Dan Carpenter. If half decent rotational players like alex carrington and cj spiller are check marks for nix then where are Corbin Bryant jarius wynn Preston Brown kiko etc for Whaley.

 

Edit Kyle Orton too

Edited April 9, 2016 by Aaron