Nix vs. Whaley, the final showdown

[3rdand12]

Yup and the real paradigm shift was after modrak got the boot. He was the architect of the 10 year talent abyss.

Amazing the change after Ralphs passing and Modrak leaving the building. Whatever rearranging was done seems to be for the better

That's funny. 3/12.

 

Appreciate the laugh.

You know that was my sole intention Kelly

 

[BillsVet]

You can't have it both ways. If you want to reference a record 6 years old to prove your point don't dismiss the last 2 years. It feels like you have an agenda. Everyone here knows that you have no agenda though...

 

It's astounding how little you understand here. Nix was 16-32 in 3 seasons (2010-12) and was retired. In his successor's 3 seasons (2013-15) Buffalo's gone 23-25, ergo a 39-57. That fact is what so irritates and antagonizes those of you who still believe this franchise is on the verge of greatness. It's why you go to such extremes trying to manufacture metrics to support your errant opinions. Like claiming Buffalo's drafted better than most teams, an entirely subjective exercise.

 

The agenda? A team that wins. Yet, I see the team doing precious little this off-season and frankly, debating a failed GM and another who's not put a winner on the field is an exercise in futility. Who cares?

 

Those of you who manufacture good emotions from this team can continue to do so. And based on their UFA signings, cap management, presumed reliance on rookies and uncertainty at QB they're not primed to win in the AFC.

 

And facts still don't care about your emotions.

[White Linen]

I'd say Nix was a part of Whaley's development so Nix deserves credit for beginning the talent overhaul of the Bills at the same time grooming our next GM. Whaley deserves a lot of credit working his way up.

 

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2013/5/14/4328444/doug-whaley-bills-general-manger-buddy-nix

 

Now Whaley has come into his own and is very well respected. We're lucky to have one of the young great minds in the NFL.

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

Now, I want to put to bed this misconception that Nix was a bumbling fool that Whaley had to overcome. Here's a compilation of their greatest hits, acquired and drafted players.

 

Buddy:

Dareus

AW

Searcy

Gilmore

Glenn

Bradham

Carrington

Spiller

Mario

Fitzy

 

Whaley:

Woods

McCoy

SWAT

Darby

Karlos

Incognito and Taylor (I put these more with Rex, TBH)

Seantrel

Hughes

Clay

 

Who did better? I think I'm taking Nix.

I'm taking Watkins, McCoy, Hughes, Incognito, Taylor, Darby, and Clay over Dareus, Mario, Gilmore, Glenn and AW any day of the week. This is a no contest if Tyrod has another good year and can solidify himself as the long term answer at QB(something the Bills have lacked since 1996).

[PlayoffsPlease]

Its tough to compare. Nix inherited a lot less talent than Whaley did. And neither made the playoffs. At this point its really like asking what smells better poodle doo doo or terrier doo doo. Not sure it matters.

[GunnerBill]

 

And facts still don't care about your emotions.

Nor do facts change despite your deliberate attempts to misrepresent them. Whaley has had 2 offseasons as GM and the record immediately following them is above .500.

 

That is a fact. Your snipe about what Pegs thinks about that record is not a fact.

Edited April 8, 2016 by GunnerBill

[Nihilarian]

Nihilarian- good points but don't forget we were a small market team, an aging owner who wouldn't pay for top coaching, no one wanted to come here as to coaches, or players, we ahd to pay a mint to start getting our first big free agent in Mario, and it was death watch not knowing if we would even be in buffalo with Mr. Wilson at an advanced age.

 

Ozzy Newsome, and company didn't have to deal with those circumstances. We missed on Arians for Marrone, but no one but Gailey would come to Buffalo back then. You cite Polian which is a good comparison, and maybe Ron Wolf who was the architect of the Packers basically sucking for 20 years after Lombardi. BTW- these are two HOF GM's so your comparing those guys to the best in the business for the last 35 years.

 

We now are in a position with one of the richest owners in the league (top7) a cemented home, have paid big time for a coach and attracted good talent and not given away the farm. We also are retaining good talent which we never did in the 2000's. If you really want me to list all of the solid talent we lost back then because noone wanted to stay here, I can.

 

I'm not slamming your opinion as these last two are not HOF GM's, but they are not dumpster fire bumbling idiots either. Like it or not, we were almost as bad as the bumbling Browns. I really feel though we are coming out of it and so your point is well taken, and I only feel they have been upgrade from the previous decade. These next two years are going to tell the story on our management team.

Thank you.

 

No, neither are or were dumpster fire bumbling idiots and I don't believe anyone called them that. But, both have made their share of mistakes across the board and the biggest for both is the not being able to find that franchise QB.

BTW, Ryan Fitzpatrick was already on the team in 2009 and interim HC Perry Fewel benched Edwards and started Fitz. To show how lame Gailey was he stated that Edwards, Brian Brohm and Fitz were all about equal in ability and then chose Edwards as his starting QB in 2010...for two games and then outright cut him! Fitz spent the remainder of 2010 running for his life because of the crapfest of an O line that Nix didn't fix. The Bills opened that season with 8 straight losses.

 

Anyway, looking back to Jauron's tenure as HC the team was a consistent 7-9 for three years straight and that was with JP Losman and Trent Edwards at QB. The problem those years wasn't the lack of talent as most would have you believe. It was the devastating rash of injuries every season and a lack of quality depth. That lack of quality depth problem hasn't changed one iota over the last six years.

 

The late owner was the one who hired a retired head scout at the age of 70 in Buddy Nix to be his GM and probably because he felt comfortable with him from being with the Bills previously as a regional scout under the late GM John Butler from 1993-2000. Ralph Wilson had a thing about loyalty and usually promoted people from within the org on many, many occasions. Marv Levy was a retired Bills HC and really not qualified to be a GM either. Buddy Nix was hired as a "national scout" in Jan 2009 by the Bills and promoted to GM in Dec 2009.

 

If you look back to 2010 offseason someone in the Bills FO let it be known that the Bills would pay a top HC upwards of 10 mill per to be the new Bills HC. Something I believe to be just a ruse to perhaps pick the brain of a top HC and see what plan they might have in hiring a coaching staff. After hearing about that 10 mill per both Mike Shanahan and Bill Cowher interviewed for the job. Chan Gailey being hired was the result of Cowher naming him as his OC in his plan. One of the things that sold the late owner on Gailey was that he stated he didn't need superstar players to win games. But yes, the bills were getting pretty desperate to find a head coach at least somewhat competent at that time.

 

Once most NFL coaches got wind of what Dick Jauron went through with in being the HC of the Buffalo Bills while working for the late owner. Like being on the phone for hours on a daily basis during the season. Then, nobody worth a darn wanted to work for a micromanaging owner like that unless they had complete autonomy and were left alone to do their job. Hence, nobody wanted the Bills HCing job and the Bills then had to resort to hire a man who was fired from his last NFL job two years previous as an offensive coordinator in Gailey.

 

Along the way in his three years as GM Buddy Nix made a ton of mistakes over his time and the results prove it out. Players aside (2010 4-12), (2011 6-10), (2012 6-10). Final record 16-32 =.333

 

Doug Whaley has done a better job just with the more wins. But this current roster still has a lot of holes and still lacks a lot of quality depth in many areas. Now changing the defensive scheme will require different players being needed to run the 3-4. It's like 2010 all over again with the defense. This hurts the entire structure of the draft so now the team must spend some picks to make the changing scheme work.

 

If anything Doug Whaley gets a pass in my view because of the Rex Ryan hire and the changing of the defensive scheme. He was learning as he goes and this HC hire just threw a monkey wrench into the works. From what I've read here and learned, Ryan wasn't the GM's choice for head coach. If that is truly the case then he shouldn't be held accountable if Ryan fails.

Still, there is this looming question at QB and clearly Whaley isn't quite sold on Taylor as being that franchise guy just yet. How many years do these men get to find that most important position on the team in that franchise QB?

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Now, I want to put to bed this misconception that Nix was a bumbling fool that Whaley had to overcome. Here's a compilation of their greatest hits, acquired and drafted players.

 

Buddy:

Dareus

AW

Searcy

Gilmore

Glenn

Bradham

Carrington

Spiller

Mario

Fitzy

 

Whaley:

Woods

McCoy

SWAT

Darby

Karlos

Incognito and Taylor (I put these more with Rex, TBH)

Seantrel

Hughes

Clay

 

Who did better? I think I'm taking Nix.

 

Nix drafts were horrible, he had a couple good guys and the rest were bums. I really loved this draft of his;

 

 

2010 Buffalo Bills Draft Selections Round Overall Player Position College 1 9 C.J. Spiller RB Clemson 2 41 Torell Troup DT UCF 3 72 Alex Carrington DE Arkansas State 4 107 Marcus Easley WR Connecticut 5 140 Ed Wang OT Virginia Tech 6 178 Arthur Moats DE James Madison 6 192 Danny Batten DE South Dakota State 7 209 Levi Brown QB Troy 7 216 Kyle Calloway OT Iowa

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Buffalo_Bills_season#2010_Draft

[GunnerBill]

 

Nix drafts were horrible, he had a couple good guys and the rest were bums. I really loved this draft of his;

 

 

2010 Buffalo Bills Draft Selections Round Overall Player Position College 1 9 C.J. Spiller RB Clemson 2 41 Torell Troup DT UCF 3 72 Alex Carrington DE Arkansas State 4 107 Marcus Easley WR Connecticut 5 140 Ed Wang OT Virginia Tech 6 178 Arthur Moats DE James Madison 6 192 Danny Batten DE South Dakota State 7 209 Levi Brown QB Troy 7 216 Kyle Calloway OT Iowa

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Buffalo_Bills_season#2010_Draft

 

That was the draft when he had just taken over though. It was Modrak's board they were using. I am not trying to absolve Nix totally from any blame for the draft - but really I consider that he should be judged on 2011, 2012, 2013. Whaley in my view should be judged on 2014, 2015 and whatever happens later this month.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

 

That was the draft when he had just taken over though. It was Modrak's board they were using. I am not trying to absolve Nix totally from any blame for the draft - but really I consider that he should be judged on 2011, 2012, 2013. Whaley in my view should be judged on 2014, 2015 and whatever happens later this month.

 

As bad as he was Nix really screwed himself when he said he just had to get us a "franchise QB" and reached for EJ Manuel, who I thought was ok in college and would be the same in the pros, unfortunately I was right.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Buffalo Barbarian

[GunnerBill]

 

As bad as he was Nix really screwed himself when he said he just had to get us a "franchise QB" and reached for EJ Manuel, who I thought was ok in college and would be the same in the pros, unfortunately I was right.

 

Nix didn't get the Quarterback position right - no question about that, but he left an otherwise more talented team than the one he inherited that is beyond doubt in my mind.

[eball]

I don't mean to be the pee in Cheerios guy but I am abstaining. I am abstaining for the simple reason that the Bills are an extremely collaborative organization. These guys worked hand and hand. The decisions were and are made as a group. This isn't like the movie draft day or some dictatorship.

 

I realize that it is easier for us to attribute "x" player to "y" GM but it doesn't work that way. The ultimate example is when people complain about Marv "the GM." Marv did not make one single personnel decision. In fact, he slept through the entire scouting meeting leading up to the draft. He knew NOTHING about the prospects. Modrak and the scouts ran the drafts and Guy and the scouts the pro side. The exact same situation with Russ Brandon "the GM." I have sat in 2 different war rooms on draft day (4 times total) and never once saw a GM "go rogue." Position coaches fight for their guys, same goes for the scouts but at the end of the day a decision is made in the best interest of the organization.

 

Excellent post, Kirby. There are far too many fans, in general, who want to see everything as black and white, right and wrong. It's just not that simple.

[GunnerBill]

 

Excellent post, Kirby. There are far too many fans, in general, who want to see everything as black and white, right and wrong. It's just not that simple.

 

 

Which is also why I think people have to separate the 2010 draft from the other Nix drafts because he hadn't got his guys in underneath him in the scouting and personnel set-up. It is also why I don't see this particular regime as having taken a shot on a QB yet, because whilst there is no doubt Whaley was "all in" on EJ the triumvirate of Whaley / Monos / Fisher as a team has not yet taken their shot. No GM is sitting there working on their own.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

 

Nix didn't get the Quarterback position right - no question about that, but he left an otherwise more talented team than the one he inherited that is beyond doubt in my mind.

 

Marv gets a lot of crap on here but he did draft Lynch, Woods and Levitre. Based on our record the talent on the roster has been pretty much the same

[machine gun kelly]

Thank you.

 

No, neither are or were dumpster fire bumbling idiots and I don't believe anyone called them that. But, both have made their share of mistakes across the board and the biggest for both is the not being able to find that franchise QB.

BTW, Ryan Fitzpatrick was already on the team in 2009 and interim HC Perry Fewel benched Edwards and started Fitz. To show how lame Gailey was he stated that Edwards, Brian Brohm and Fitz were all about equal in ability and then chose Edwards as his starting QB in 2010...for two games and then outright cut him! Fitz spent the remainder of 2010 running for his life because of the crapfest of an O line that Nix didn't fix. The Bills opened that season with 8 straight losses.

 

Anyway, looking back to Jauron's tenure as HC the team was a consistent 7-9 for three years straight and that was with JP Losman and Trent Edwards at QB. The problem those years wasn't the lack of talent as most would have you believe. It was the devastating rash of injuries every season and a lack of quality depth. That lack of quality depth problem hasn't changed one iota over the last six years.

 

The late owner was the one who hired a retired head scout at the age of 70 in Buddy Nix to be his GM and probably because he felt comfortable with him from being with the Bills previously as a regional scout under the late GM John Butler from 1993-2000. Ralph Wilson had a thing about loyalty and usually promoted people from within the org on many, many occasions. Marv Levy was a retired Bills HC and really not qualified to be a GM either. Buddy Nix was hired as a "national scout" in Jan 2009 by the Bills and promoted to GM in Dec 2009.

 

If you look back to 2010 offseason someone in the Bills FO let it be known that the Bills would pay a top HC upwards of 10 mill per to be the new Bills HC. Something I believe to be just a ruse to perhaps pick the brain of a top HC and see what plan they might have in hiring a coaching staff. After hearing about that 10 mill per both Mike Shanahan and Bill Cowher interviewed for the job. Chan Gailey being hired was the result of Cowher naming him as his OC in his plan. One of the things that sold the late owner on Gailey was that he stated he didn't need superstar players to win games. But yes, the bills were getting pretty desperate to find a head coach at least somewhat competent at that time.

 

Once most NFL coaches got wind of what Dick Jauron went through with in being the HC of the Buffalo Bills while working for the late owner. Like being on the phone for hours on a daily basis during the season. Then, nobody worth a darn wanted to work for a micromanaging owner like that unless they had complete autonomy and were left alone to do their job. Hence, nobody wanted the Bills HCing job and the Bills then had to resort to hire a man who was fired from his last NFL job two years previous as an offensive coordinator in Gailey.

 

Along the way in his three years as GM Buddy Nix made a ton of mistakes over his time and the results prove it out. Players aside (2010 4-12), (2011 6-10), (2012 6-10). Final record 16-32 =.333

 

Doug Whaley has done a better job just with the more wins. But this current roster still has a lot of holes and still lacks a lot of quality depth in many areas. Now changing the defensive scheme will require different players being needed to run the 3-4. It's like 2010 all over again with the defense. This hurts the entire structure of the draft so now the team must spend some picks to make the changing scheme work.

 

If anything Doug Whaley gets a pass in my view because of the Rex Ryan hire and the changing of the defensive scheme. He was learning as he goes and this HC hire just threw a monkey wrench into the works. From what I've read here and learned, Ryan wasn't the GM's choice for head coach. If that is truly the case then he shouldn't be held accountable if Ryan fails.

Still, there is this looming question at QB and clearly Whaley isn't quite sold on Taylor as being that franchise guy just yet. How many years do these men get to find that most important position on the team in that franchise QB?

 

Good take and reminded me of some facts I forgot about Jauron. Well written.

[GunnerBill]

 

Marv gets a lot of crap on here but he did draft Lynch, Woods and Levitre. Based on our record the talent on the roster has been pretty much the same

 

No he didn't. Marv only drafted Lynch of those. Wood and Levitre were drafted by Brandon. The point being that neither Marv or Brandon were true GMs - Modrak was the man calling the shots seemingly.

 

But go back and look at that 2010 roster that Nix inherited and compare it to the one he left in 2014. If the best players on your roster are a running back, a centre and a guard you are in trouble.

 

By the time Nix left there was an elite pass rusher, one of the best young corners in football, one of the best young offensive tackles in football, a dominant young defensive tackle and a receiver coming off 3 back to back 1,000 yard seasons. The piece he never found was at Quarterback - and the criticism he gets for his lack of trying is fair.

[Dorkington]

Let's not act like there hasn't been improvement over the course of Nix/Whaley. Has it been as fast as we'd like? Nope. Are we where we need to be? Not yet. But has the team improved? Very much so. Can't believe it takes a chart to lay it out.

 

 

Edited April 8, 2016 by Dorkington

[FireChan]

 

As bad as he was Nix really screwed himself when he said he just had to get us a "franchise QB" and reached for EJ Manuel, who I thought was ok in college and would be the same in the pros, unfortunately I was right.

This is absolutely not how it went, otherwise you're completely correct.

Edited April 8, 2016 by FireChan

[Kirby Jackson]

 

It's astounding how little you understand here. Nix was 16-32 in 3 seasons (2010-12) and was retired. In his successor's 3 seasons (2013-15) Buffalo's gone 23-25, ergo a 39-57. That fact is what so irritates and antagonizes those of you who still believe this franchise is on the verge of greatness. It's why you go to such extremes trying to manufacture metrics to support your errant opinions. Like claiming Buffalo's drafted better than most teams, an entirely subjective exercise.

 

The agenda? A team that wins. Yet, I see the team doing precious little this off-season and frankly, debating a failed GM and another who's not put a winner on the field is an exercise in futility. Who cares?

 

Those of you who manufacture good emotions from this team can continue to do so. And based on their UFA signings, cap management, presumed reliance on rookies and uncertainty at QB they're not primed to win in the AFC.

 

And facts still don't care about your emotions.

This is pretty funny. You manipulate stats to push through your agenda (yes it's an agenda as evidenced by every single post you've made). You want to use record to show ineptness yet you ignore the most recent years which have been an improvement. You talk about cap management when the only player of substance they sacrificed was Mario Williams who was never going to play under a $16M cap number. We can also say uncertainty at QB, but they are not the Broncos. The guy under center went to the Pro Bowl in his 1st year as starter.

 

Everything isn't sunshine and rainbows. It isn't a funeral either. Until you realize that your posts continue to come across as an agenda. Its okay to recognize the good and criticize the bad. Try it sometime!! Say that Watkins is great or the Bills run the ball well. Say something nice about the draft steal in Darby. Talk about what a find Tyrod was. There is good and bad; why can't you see that? You don't always need to be shouting, "get off my lawn."

[GunnerBill]

BillsVet falls into the "the Bills are not competing for championships so everything about them is wrong."

 

It is obviously the case that something needs to change but it is not the case that everything needs to.