Kirby Jackson Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 We may as well compare Levy and Brandon to Nix and Whaley. The first guy was advanced in age, brought more credibility, retired 2-3 years in, and was succeeded by a young guy who still couldn't get the team into the playoffs. Sure there are differences, but it ceases to amaze me how GM's who can't get their team in the playoffs are lauded. If that's truly the case, Ted Thompson, Ozzie Newsome, and John Schneider should be in the HOF right now. Buffalo is 39-57 (.406) in the past 6 seasons. I realize that's a harsh metric to some because it doesn't fit the narrative that the Bills are unlucky, but that's what they are. 19-17 (.528) the last 2 so does that mean that Whaley is good?
FireChan Posted April 7, 2016 Author Posted April 7, 2016 (edited) I tend to agree, I just don't differentiate between the 2 because the line was always so blurred. As far as I am concerned they both did a good job. I'm not really sure why Buddy takes the heat that he does. The roster when he left was way better than the roster when he arrived. That is the sign of a job well done IMO. As to the 1st part someone earlier in the thread argued that "it is debatable" if the talent is better now than when Buddy & Co. arrived. It isn't debatable. I get that. But just look at the poll! 6:1 against a guy who brought in 4 top 10 players at their position, a few good starters, and some depth in 2 years. Absolutely crazy to me. Edited April 7, 2016 by FireChan
Kirby Jackson Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 I get that. But just look at the poll! 6:1 against a guy who brought in 4 top 10 players at their position, a few good starters, and some depth in 2 years. Absolutely crazy to me. That doesn't make sense to me. I really don't know why so many people were anti-buddy? What he understood was that the best football was played in the south. That's where he went to get his players. Maybe people didn't like that about him? They are doing the same thing now though. I liked Buddy and I like Whaley. I can't speak for everyone else.
Mr. WEO Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 2013 was when Buddy officially stepped down and Whaley was named GM, but Whaley was spearheading all the scouting on the college level as well as running the pro personnel side of things well before that. Buddy may have been the face of the office, but Whaley was running most of the show. GO BILLS!!! If so then Whaley takes the hit for TJ Graham over Wilson. And for EJ. TT was Rex's idea.
gatorbait Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 (edited) Chan you can think I'm crazy for voting for Whaley without any hesitation but the combination of Whaley/Pegula has resulted in our two best seasons in fifteen years. I don't think we're that far from being a playoff caliber team and that goes for offense and defense. Rex may not be the long term answer, who knows, but our recent years of good drafts and competitive play have me more optimistic this year than the last ten. Edited April 8, 2016 by FLBillsFan87
LeGOATski Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 I get that. But just look at the poll! 6:1 against a guy who brought in 4 top 10 players at their position, a few good starters, and some depth in 2 years. Absolutely crazy to me. Because the voters know Whaley played a big role in bringing those guys in. He's continued to bring in the talent, while Nix is gone, so more people vote for Whaley. It's not crazy at all. It makes perfect sense. If so then Whaley takes the hit for TJ Graham over Wilson. And for EJ. TT was Rex's idea. Then TJ Graham was Whaley's idea, who wanted Fitz, and EJ was Marrone's idea... This is fun.
FireChan Posted April 7, 2016 Author Posted April 7, 2016 Chan you can think I'm crazy for voting for Whaley without any hesitation but the combination of Whaley/Pegula has resulted in our two best seasons in fifteen years. I don't think we're that far from being a playoff caliber team and that goes for offense and defense. Rex may not be the long term answer, who knows, but our recent years of good drafts and competitive play has me more optimistic this year than the last ten. But I guess what I'm trying to say is who was really responsible for 2014? Our defense and front 4 who all had career years? 3 of whom were here before Whaley was calling the shots? Because the voters know Whaley played a big role in bringing those guys in. He's continued to bring in the talent, while Nix is gone, so more people vote for Whaley. It's not crazy at all. It makes perfect sense. Then TJ Graham was Whaley's idea, who wanted Fitz, and EJ was Marrone's idea... This is fun. I don't know what voters think, but my gut tells me you're giving them far too much credit. Also, why are you just making stuff up about Marrone and EJ?
Nihilarian Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 (edited) We may as well compare Levy and Brandon to Nix and Whaley. The first guy was advanced in age, brought more credibility, retired 2-3 years in, and was succeeded by a young guy who still couldn't get the team into the playoffs. Sure there are differences, but it ceases to amaze me how GM's who can't get their team in the playoffs are lauded. If that's truly the case, Ted Thompson, Ozzie Newsome, and John Schneider should be in the HOF right now. Buffalo is 39-57 (.406) in the past 6 seasons. I realize that's a harsh metric to some because it doesn't fit the narrative that the Bills are unlucky, but that's what they are. So true. I just can't get past all the gushing over two guys that haven't gotten this team to the playoffs for the last six years. One was never a past GM and made countless mistakes all over the roster, and the other was a rookie GM who has made his own share of mistakes. To remind Bills fans of what a top GM can do for a team an example Bills fans might know in Bill Polian. The man had three different franchises in the playoffs in three years or less and one was built from the ground up expansion team. Six years and it took a new head coach to find a decent young QB who may turn the corner into a top player...or not. Both men throwing money all over except at the right position. At least now Doug Whaley is getting a better understanding that building a decent offensive line will give his QB a chance to be successful. But, it was a tough learning curve. Edited April 7, 2016 by Nihilarian
GunnerBill Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 Are some people conveniently forgetting the state of this team when Buddy was appointed GM? Buddy did a good job but did not get the Quarterback position right and allowed Chan's trust in Fitz to prevent them drafting a QB. Whaley has done a good job of keeping our talent and for the most part of bringing in talent. Does Rex get credit for Tyrod - sure he does but Whaley was the name over the door. The facts are that the win loss record following the two off-seasons that have been all Whaley with his two hand picked lieutenants in Monos and Fisher is the right side of .500. I think both have helped us get better. The question is can Whaley help us get over the hump. The coaching change didn't help him (though the breakdown of his relationship with the other Doug is his own fault) but he needs a good draft in 2016. I am not sure Whaley has the right coach in place I have to say but again he isn't blameless in that.
machine gun kelly Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 Nihilarian- good points but don't forget we were a small market team, an aging owner who wouldn't pay for top coaching, no one wanted to come here as to coaches, or players, we ahd to pay a mint to start getting our first big free agent in Mario, and it was death watch not knowing if we would even be in buffalo with Mr. Wilson at an advanced age. Ozzy Newsome, and company didn't have to deal with those circumstances. We missed on Arians for Marrone, but no one but Gailey would come to Buffalo back then. You cite Polian which is a good comparison, and maybe Ron Wolf who was the architect of the Packers basically sucking for 20 years after Lombardi. BTW- these are two HOF GM's so your comparing those guys to the best in the business for the last 35 years. We now are in a position with one of the richest owners in the league (top7) a cemented home, have paid big time for a coach and attracted good talent and not given away the farm. We also are retaining good talent which we never did in the 2000's. If you really want me to list all of the solid talent we lost back then because noone wanted to stay here, I can. I'm not slamming your opinion as these last two are not HOF GM's, but they are not dumpster fire bumbling idiots either. Like it or not, we were almost as bad as the bumbling Browns. I really feel though we are coming out of it and so your point is well taken, and I only feel they have been upgrade from the previous decade. These next two years are going to tell the story on our management team.
todd Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 Now, I want to put to bed this misconception that Nix was a bumbling fool that Whaley had to overcome. Here's a compilation of their greatest hits, acquired and drafted players. Buddy: Dareus AW Searcy Gilmore Glenn Bradham Carrington Spiller Mario Fitzy Whaley: Woods McCoy SWAT Darby Karlos Incognito and Taylor (I put these more with Rex, TBH) Seantrel Hughes Clay Who did better? I think I'm taking Nix. Why does it have to be a competition? They both made 10 good moves. Whaley was a scout when Nix was here, so should he get some of the credit for what Nix did? Also, Whaley resigned incognito and Glenn. That's gotta count for something. Seems clear you have some sort of strange axe to grind with whaley.
FireChan Posted April 7, 2016 Author Posted April 7, 2016 Why does it have to be a competition? They both made 10 good moves. Whaley was a scout when Nix was here, so should he get some of the credit for what Nix did? Also, Whaley resigned incognito and Glenn. That's gotta count for something. Seems clear you have some sort of strange axe to grind with whaley. Why would comparing him to Nix mean I have an "axe" to grind?
machine gun kelly Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 Todd, I didn't take that Chan was slamming Whaley, just postulating Nix was not the hot mess some people have shared on here. I thought he felt both were good, but that Whaley is mainly part of the plan as an extension of what Nix started. Chan, not trying to talk for you, but that was what I took from your takes. One nice thing from this thread is it has not denegrated into a bunch of silly personal attacks, but a lot of sound opinions. Those are my favorite threads. I can't stand when people turn these threads into personal attacks and bantering, and one reply after another gets worse. Just turns me off. I don't care if people disagree with me when they have thoughtful opinions.
3rdand12 Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 (edited) You must include Fitz for Buddy. Like it or not that was a major plus Also need to consider brown for dougie. And the whole kiko thing. Nix gets credit for moats, wood and not keeping the OG who went to Tennessee. Also urbik. Oh. And consider who Whaley has brought in to try to play qb and backup qb. Not that nix did any better but me thinks he was hamstrung some by other factors you must consider losing Fitz because of Nix too. I dont see it as one vs the other, but rather that Whaley is the continuation of what Nix came in to start. Whaley (or someone like him) was part of Nix's plan from Nix's very first day. Nix knew that, at 70-something, he was just here to try to get the ship off the rocks and back in the water, and then turn it over to a new Captain. And that's exactly what he did. Through a concerted effort with Brandon, they removed the stigmas that surrounded the Bills with Coaching candidates and Free Agents alike. They started the process of revamping our Personnel departments and fixing our drafting. The last 5 years might be our best GMing performances since Polian. The credit goes to the team of Nix & Whaley. excellent post!!! I do like how Whaley has carefully been reworking the scouting team since Nix and before. Revamping is a perfect description It really is impossible for me to separate them. With that being said I have been happy with the work that they have done. If you are asking me if the personnel department is better or worse than 10 years ago, the answer is better. This current era (including Fisher, Monos, etc...) has done a (lot) better job than the Guy/Modrak led group. yep Edited April 7, 2016 by 3rdand12
BillsVet Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 19-17 (.528) the last 2 so does that mean that Whaley is good? 17-15 in 2014-2015. After being one of the highest spending teams in the NFL and getting a win the final week of 2014 against NE when they played their JV team. I'm sure TPegs is good with being barely .500 the past 2 years given the big dollars he's spent on the franchise.
3rdand12 Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 That doesn't make sense to me. I really don't know why so many people were anti-buddy? What he understood was that the best football was played in the south. That's where he went to get his players. Maybe people didn't like that about him? They are doing the same thing now though. I liked Buddy and I like Whaley. I can't speak for everyone else. I can vote for Whaley without being anti Buddy.That would be kinda foolish, and i am probably not the only one. Had to pick one. In my mind Nix hire began the painfully slow turn around of the Bills becoming credible So true. I just can't get past all the gushing over two guys that haven't gotten this team to the playoffs for the last six years. One was never a past GM and made countless mistakes all over the roster, and the other was a rookie GM who has made his own share of mistakes. To remind Bills fans of what a top GM can do for a team an example Bills fans might know in Bill Polian. The man had three different franchises in the playoffs in three years or less and one was built from the ground up expansion team. Six years and it took a new head coach to find a decent young QB who may turn the corner into a top player...or not. Both men throwing money all over except at the right position. At least now Doug Whaley is getting a better understanding that building a decent offensive line will give his QB a chance to be successful. But, it was a tough learning curve. Gushing ? Todd, I didn't take that Chan was slamming Whaley, just postulating Nix was not the hot mess some people have shared on here. I thought he felt both were good, but that Whaley is mainly part of the plan as an extension of what Nix started. Chan, not trying to talk for you, but that was what I took from your takes. One nice thing from this thread is it has not denegrated into a bunch of silly personal attacks, but a lot of sound opinions. Those are my favorite threads. I can't stand when people turn these threads into personal attacks and bantering, and one reply after another gets worse. Just turns me off. I don't care if people disagree with me when they have thoughtful opinions. well you are just plain wrong then.
Kirby Jackson Posted April 8, 2016 Posted April 8, 2016 17-15 in 2014-2015. After being one of the highest spending teams in the NFL and getting a win the final week of 2014 against NE when they played their JV team. I'm sure TPegs is good with being barely .500 the past 2 years given the big dollars he's spent on the franchise. You can't have it both ways. If you want to reference a record 6 years old to prove your point don't dismiss the last 2 years. It feels like you have an agenda. Everyone here knows that you have no agenda though...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted April 8, 2016 Posted April 8, 2016 I don't mean to be the pee in Cheerios guy but I am abstaining. I am abstaining for the simple reason that the Bills are an extremely collaborative organization. These guys worked hand and hand. The decisions were and are made as a group. This isn't like the movie draft day or some dictatorship. I realize that it is easier for us to attribute "x" player to "y" GM but it doesn't work that way. The ultimate example is when people complain about Marv "the GM." Marv did not make one single personnel decision. In fact, he slept through the entire scouting meeting leading up to the draft. He knew NOTHING about the prospects. Modrak and the scouts ran the drafts and Guy and the scouts the pro side. The exact same situation with Russ Brandon "the GM." I have sat in 2 different war rooms on draft day (4 times total) and never once saw a GM "go rogue." Position coaches fight for their guys, same goes for the scouts but at the end of the day a decision is made in the best interest of the organization. Yup and the real paradigm shift was after modrak got the boot. He was the architect of the 10 year talent abyss.
3rdand12 Posted April 8, 2016 Posted April 8, 2016 17-15 in 2014-2015. After being one of the highest spending teams in the NFL and getting a win the final week of 2014 against NE when they played their JV team. I'm sure TPegs is good with being barely .500 the past 2 years given the big dollars he's spent on the franchise. I would hope Pegulas knew it was not going to happen overnight. Its not like he bought the Patriots and their cheating ways. Sometimes its about the journey
machine gun kelly Posted April 8, 2016 Posted April 8, 2016 I can vote for Whaley without being anti Buddy.That would be kinda foolish, and i am probably not the only one. Had to pick one. In my mind Nix hire began the painfully slow turn around of the Bills becoming credible Gushing ? well you are just plain wrong then. That's funny. 3/12. Appreciate the laugh.
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