Ronin Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 Nix's first order of business was to sign Whaley to handle the personnel side of the house, which is why he was Asst. GM/Director of Pro Personnel. Why people are beleaguered in understanding that is perplexing. Nix was never a personnel guy, Brandon et al knew this full well. Nix was hired for his savvy in navigating the NFL more in an administrative sense and for, theoretically anyway, being able to hire the right people to get the job(s) done. Whaley has been in charge of personnel ever since he was hired, he himself has stated that Manuel was his baby despite people not seemingly wanting to believe Whaley's own words in the matter. I don't really see much of a Nix v. Whaley on the personnel side of this since Whaley's been the personnel head for 6 seasons now, 6 seasons that have resulted in a cumulative 39-57. It really is impossible for me to separate them. With that being said I have been happy with the work that they have done. If you are asking me if the personnel department is better or worse than 10 years ago, the answer is better. This current era (including Fisher, Monos, etc...) has done a (lot) better job than the Guy/Modrak led group. What backs that up tho? All I see is 39-57, not much different if even better under the old boss(es).
Kirby Jackson Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 What backs that up tho? All I see is 39-57, not much different if even better under the old boss(es). The talent on the roster is significantly better. The last two years (as the talent has developed) they are 17-15. You can pretty much throw out the record from early Nix. That was one of the worst rosters in Bills history.
Ronin Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 (edited) I dont see it as one vs the other, but rather that Whaley is the continuation of what Nix came in to start. Whaley (or someone like him) was part of Nix's plan from Nix's very first day. Nix knew that, at 70-something, he was just here to try to get the ship off the rocks and back in the water, and then turn it over to a new Captain. And that's exactly what he did. Through a concerted effort with Brandon, they removed the stigmas that surrounded the Bills with Coaching candidates and Free Agents alike. They started the process of revamping our Personnel departments and fixing our drafting. The last 5 years might be our best GMing performances since Polian. The credit goes to the team of Nix & Whaley. You're one of the very few that seems to understand that despite it having been articulated by the team repeatedly in the past. Nix was brought on to conduct damage control at the league level and to reorient a sinking ship. Not saying he did that, he didn't. But that's why they brought him on. No one here can find any credible info that states that Nix was brought on for his personnel/player savvy. He wasn't that kind of GM which is why all but immediately Whaley was hired as his sidekick to be Asst. GM. Unfortunately the distinction has merely allowed for excuse-making for those that seem to be under the delusion that Whaley's even average as a GM much less more when he's been below average. 6 seasons while head of personnel without even a single playoff appearance with only one weak winning season should be more than enough to make that clear. On top of that, and adding insult to injury for Nix, they essentially stripped Nix of any authority, not to mention dignity, when they essentially stated that he wouldn't be the GM any longer but allowed him to retain the title for about half-a-year as Whaley took control of the con yet while Nix, at least among Whaley apologists, became the scapegoat for things that went wrong during that time period. Edited April 7, 2016 by TaskersGhost
Jauronimo Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 (edited) Nix's first order of business was to sign Whaley to handle the personnel side of the house, which is why he was Asst. GM/Director of Pro Personnel. Why people are beleaguered in understanding that is perplexing. Nix was never a personnel guy, Brandon et al knew this full well. Nix was hired for his savvy in navigating the NFL more in an administrative sense and for, theoretically anyway, being able to hire the right people to get the job(s) done. Whaley has been in charge of personnel ever since he was hired, he himself has stated that Manuel was his baby despite people not seemingly wanting to believe Whaley's own words in the matter. I don't really see much of a Nix v. Whaley on the personnel side of this since Whaley's been the personnel head for 6 seasons now, 6 seasons that have resulted in a cumulative 39-57. What backs that up tho? All I see is 39-57, not much different if even better under the old boss(es). Your use of beleaguered is rather perplexing. You're one of the very few that seems to understand that despite it having been articulated by the team repeatedly in the past. Nix was brought on to conduct damage control at the league level and to reorient a sinking ship. Not saying he did that, he didn't. But that's why they brought him on. No one here can find any credible info that states that Nix was brought on for his personnel/player savvy. He wasn't that kind of GM which is why all but immediately Whaley was hired as his sidekick to be Asst. GM. Unfortunately the distinction has merely allowed for excuse-making for those that seem to be under the delusion that Whaley's even average as a GM much less more when he's been below average. 6 seasons while head of personnel without even a single playoff appearance with only one weak winning season should be more than enough to make that clear. Why would you want to do that? The ship is sinking Captain Nix! Buddy: Starboard 90 degrees, get 'er done! Edited April 7, 2016 by Jauronimo
Ronin Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 The talent on the roster is significantly better. The last two years (as the talent has developed) they are 17-15. You can pretty much throw out the record from early Nix. That was one of the worst rosters in Bills history. Definitely debatable on the talent being better. That would mean that we've had buffoons as coaches. The way that I see it is that the stars merely aligned last season for a good D, but otherwise the talent's been about the same. We've had much better LBs in the past, Kyle Williams predated both Nix and Whaley and the DB situation hasn't really changed much other than recently last season with Darby. Offensively it's been a dumpster fire for years with players rotating in/out.
thebandit27 Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 You're one of the very few that seems to understand that despite it having been articulated by the team repeatedly in the past. Nix was brought on to conduct damage control at the league level and to reorient a sinking ship. Not saying he did that, he didn't. But that's why they brought him on. No one here can find any credible info that states that Nix was brought on for his personnel/player savvy. He wasn't that kind of GM which is why all but immediately Whaley was hired as his sidekick to be Asst. GM. Unfortunately the distinction has merely allowed for excuse-making for those that seem to be under the delusion that Whaley's even average as a GM much less more when he's been below average. 6 seasons while head of personnel without even a single playoff appearance with only one weak winning season should be more than enough to make that clear. Wait, really? The guy was a career scout, why do you think he was hired? Because he knew how to "navigate the NFL landscape"? No. Not even close. He was hired for his ability to evaluate players. Period. But don't take my word for it: http://espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4785461 A few key quotes: "I'm here to introduce somebody that we've needed for a long time, something the fans and everybody in the area and myself have wanted, and that's a general manager of football," Wilson said, adding that his decision came down to two in-house candidates. "We really needed somebody who knew all aspects of football." "At 70, Nix had been out of football after retiring in 2008 following a five-year stint as the San Diego Chargers assistant GM/director of player personnel, where he worked under A.J. Smith." Career scout, former coach. Nothing to do with administrative work. You're one of the very few that seems to understand that despite it having been articulated by the team repeatedly in the past. Nix was brought on to conduct damage control at the league level and to reorient a sinking ship. Not saying he did that, he didn't. But that's why they brought him on. No one here can find any credible info that states that Nix was brought on for his personnel/player savvy. He wasn't that kind of GM which is why all but immediately Whaley was hired as his sidekick to be Asst. GM. Unfortunately the distinction has merely allowed for excuse-making for those that seem to be under the delusion that Whaley's even average as a GM much less more when he's been below average. 6 seasons while head of personnel without even a single playoff appearance with only one weak winning season should be more than enough to make that clear. On top of that, and adding insult to injury for Nix, they essentially stripped Nix of any authority, not to mention dignity, when they essentially stated that he wouldn't be the GM any longer but allowed him to retain the title for about half-a-year as Whaley took control of the con yet while Nix, at least among Whaley apologists, became the scapegoat for things that went wrong during that time period. Whaley has been in charge of personnel since May of 2013. Following the only two offseasons since Whaley has been in charge, the team went 9-7 and 8-8. Definitely debatable on the talent being better. That would mean that we've had buffoons as coaches. The way that I see it is that the stars merely aligned last season for a good D, but otherwise the talent's been about the same. We've had much better LBs in the past, Kyle Williams predated both Nix and Whaley and the DB situation hasn't really changed much other than recently last season with Darby. Offensively it's been a dumpster fire for years with players rotating in/out. It's not debatable, go position-by-position from the time Nix was hired to now. Not...even...close.
QB Bills Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 Also take into account that Nix had budgetary constraints that Whaley does not. At least not since the Pegulas have taken over. Nix > Whaley, and I don't even think it's all that close if you consider what they both started from.
Kirby Jackson Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 Definitely debatable on the talent being better. That would mean that we've had buffoons as coaches. The way that I see it is that the stars merely aligned last season for a good D, but otherwise the talent's been about the same. We've had much better LBs in the past, Kyle Williams predated both Nix and Whaley and the DB situation hasn't really changed much other than recently last season with Darby. Offensively it's been a dumpster fire for years with players rotating in/out. Okay no you have to be trolling. The 2015 Bills would beat the 2009 Bills by 24 points!!! Line the rosters up side by side and convince us the talent was better in 2009 (or 2008 or 2007, etc).
LeGOATski Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 Whaley's killing it. Considering that they both came into the organization together and worked as a team, though, I agree with others who say distinguishing them from on another isn't all that simple.
jr1 Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 Whaley doesn't even need the superdelegates to win this
FireChan Posted April 7, 2016 Author Posted April 7, 2016 I don't get it. Nix has clearly brought in better players. It doesn't make any sense.
Kirby Jackson Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 I don't get it. Nix has clearly brought in better players. It doesn't make any sense. Would you at least agree that the Whaley/Nix Bills have a lot more talent than the Modrak/Guy Bills?
LeGOATski Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 I don't get it. Nix has clearly brought in better players. It doesn't make any sense. It's clearly not as black and white as you want it to be. If Nix had been fired and then Whaley was brought in as his replacement after-the-fact, then you could draw a line there. However, both of their stints in Buffalo overlap. Whaley got a legit QB, so that must be a huge factor for a lot of voters.
QB Bills Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 Now, I want to put to bed this misconception that Nix was a bumbling fool that Whaley had to overcome. Here's a compilation of their greatest hits, acquired and drafted players. Buddy: Dareus AW Wood Searcy Gilmore Glenn Bradham Carrington Spiller Mario Fitzy Whaley: Woods McCoy SWAT Darby Karlos Incognito and Taylor (I put these more with Rex, TBH) Seantrel Hughes Clay Who did better? I think I'm taking Nix. I'm with you, but to be fair, Wood was before the Nix regime, if I recall.
FireChan Posted April 7, 2016 Author Posted April 7, 2016 Would you at least agree that the Whaley/Nix Bills have a lot more talent than the Modrak/Guy Bills? Yes but that's irrelevant. I suppose my point can be broken down to my OP list. Gun to your head, which list do you take Buddy's or Whaley's. I take Buddy's and don't look back. I think there's at least a good argument to be made for it, no? If so, why is there this prevailing notion that Whaley is soooooo much better than Buddy? It makes no sense. It's clearly not as black and white as you want it to be. If Nix had been fired and then Whaley was brought in as his replacement after-the-fact, then you could draw a line there. However, both of their stints in Buffalo overlap. Whaley got a legit QB, so that must be a huge factor for a lot of voters. Right, but seeing as we don't know exactly who did what, the best we can do is judge them on the moves while they were making the calls, no? I'm with you, but to be fair, Wood was before the Nix regime, if I recall. Right, Maybin draft, I knew that.
gatorbait Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 Bandit had a great post above. Imo Whaley has been our best GM since the 90's glory days.
BillsVet Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 We may as well compare Levy and Brandon to Nix and Whaley. The first guy was advanced in age, brought more credibility, retired 2-3 years in, and was succeeded by a young guy who still couldn't get the team into the playoffs. Sure there are differences, but it ceases to amaze me how GM's who can't get their team in the playoffs are lauded. If that's truly the case, Ted Thompson, Ozzie Newsome, and John Schneider should be in the HOF right now. Buffalo is 39-57 (.406) in the past 6 seasons. I realize that's a harsh metric to some because it doesn't fit the narrative that the Bills are unlucky, but that's what they are.
Kirby Jackson Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 Yes but that's irrelevant. I suppose my point can be broken down to my OP list. Gun to your head, which list do you take Buddy's or Whaley's. I take Buddy's and don't look back. I think there's at least a good argument to be made for it, no? If so, why is there this prevailing notion that Whaley is soooooo much better than Buddy? It makes no sense. I tend to agree, I just don't differentiate between the 2 because the line was always so blurred. As far as I am concerned they both did a good job. I'm not really sure why Buddy takes the heat that he does. The roster when he left was way better than the roster when he arrived. That is the sign of a job well done IMO. As to the 1st part someone earlier in the thread argued that "it is debatable" if the talent is better now than when Buddy & Co. arrived. It isn't debatable.
LeGOATski Posted April 7, 2016 Posted April 7, 2016 Right, but seeing as we don't know exactly who did what, the best we can do is judge them on the moves while they were making the calls, no? Why bother? That's what I'm saying. You're forcing it. In the end, if you want to know who's better, you'll have to weigh their entire careers.
FireChan Posted April 7, 2016 Author Posted April 7, 2016 (edited) Why bother? That's what I'm saying. You're forcing it. In the end, if you want to know who's better, you'll have to weigh their entire careers. Because it's the offseason, and I can't take another Rex/Tyrod topic. Edited April 7, 2016 by FireChan
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