machine gun kelly Posted April 1, 2016 Posted April 1, 2016 Interesting article on Lee vs. Ragland due to changing NFL and needing guys in coverage vs. bigger ILB's like Brown. Brown should improve in year 2 with Rex's defense, but unless you're talking about a Kuechly, and we're not, to pick an ILB in round 1 is like picking a RB. They have to be a generational player to do it. We need pass rushers and this draft is deep in them. I'm sure we'll draft an ILB with one of our 8 picks, but not at #1. We probably will pick up a QB too somewhere, and maybe an OL.
YoloinOhio Posted April 1, 2016 Posted April 1, 2016 (edited) I put this in the LB draft thread but would fit here too. Good read on why Darron Lee fits the modern LB role... Matchups http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/2626093-ohio-states-darron-lee-is-ideal-modern-era-linebacker?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=share&utm_campaign=web-des-art-top-438?is_shared=true And though I've often mentioned that I think Lee may be too raw to contribute immediately I will counter that by saying he's nowhere near his ceiling which I think it much higher than Ragland. Edited April 1, 2016 by YoloinOhio
mannc Posted April 1, 2016 Posted April 1, 2016 Interesting article on Lee vs. Ragland due to changing NFL and needing guys in coverage vs. bigger ILB's like Brown. Brown should improve in year 2 with Rex's defense, but unless you're talking about a Kuechly, and we're not, to pick an ILB in round 1 is like picking a RB. They have to be a generational player to do it. We need pass rushers and this draft is deep in them. I'm sure we'll draft an ILB with one of our 8 picks, but not at #1. We probably will pick up a QB too somewhere, and maybe an OL. Exactly. No one is saying the Bills don't need LBs; the issue is whether you need to spend a first (or even a second) round pick on an ILB when there are perfectly good ones to be found in later rounds and in Free Agency for not much $$.
Kirby Jackson Posted April 1, 2016 Posted April 1, 2016 Exactly. No one is saying the Bills don't need LBs; the issue is whether you need to spend a first (or even a second) round pick on an ILB when there are perfectly good ones to be found in later rounds and in Free Agency for not much $$. ^^^ This
John from Riverside Posted April 1, 2016 Posted April 1, 2016 Bruce Carter visiting bills today....I know its not the point of the original op thread.....but Carter is a guy with size that can cover
BillsVet Posted April 1, 2016 Posted April 1, 2016 Tell me what teams have acquired more talent than the Bills in recent years? The ball is in your court. You can complain about whatever you want (you always do) but to criticize the Bills drafting is so far off base your other complaints lose credibility. If you want to complain about cap management, the QB, the regression of the d, coaching, etc... go for it. Complaining about drafting though makes every other point you make less credible. Your "get off my lawn" approach could be impactful if used correctly. In fact, there are other negative posters that provide an interesting perspective (Weo comes to mind). You don't need to be sunshine and rainbows but to act like the Bills have drafted poorly isn't even off base, it's wrong. No matter how many times you slice it, the defining metric to what constitutes success is W-L record. There is nothing else. If they have all this talent, why aren't they more than a .500 team? And where is their talent? Because if you're outstanding at RB, G, LB, S and still can't pass the ball between the hash marks who cares? The Bills remain what their record says they are. Now go find that ball.
Kirby Jackson Posted April 1, 2016 Posted April 1, 2016 No matter how many times you slice it, the defining metric to what constitutes success is W-L record. There is nothing else. If they have all this talent, why aren't they more than a .500 team? And where is their talent? Because if you're outstanding at RB, G, LB, S and still can't pass the ball between the hash marks who cares? The Bills remain what their record says they are. Now go find that ball. You totally avoided the question. What teams have acquired more talent in the draft recently than the Bills. If you say that they are bad at drafting (as you have) I would expect at least 16 examples (half of the league) of teams that have drafted better over the last 5 years. The Bills have gone from a 6 win team to a 9 win team to an 8 win team with young talent (and poor coaching). Again, you said that they are bad at drafting. I asked you to go through the teams that have drafted better over the last 5 years. Unless you have 16 of them you remain wrong.
C.Biscuit97 Posted April 1, 2016 Posted April 1, 2016 LBs are the rbs of the defense. If the d line is good in front of him, they are almost interchangeable. In 2014, in a good system, the d line dominated and our LBs were good. You should only take an ILB in the 1st if you truly believe they are game changers. They are very rare. I don't know if RR is. It's so hard to tell with Bama rbs and lbs because the lines in front of them are so good. Personally, I would pass on him. I think you need d line (crazy that the d line is a need) and/or outside pass rushers.
John from Riverside Posted April 1, 2016 Posted April 1, 2016 No matter how many times you slice it, the defining metric to what constitutes success is W-L record. There is nothing else. If they have all this talent, why aren't they more than a .500 team? And where is their talent? Because if you're outstanding at RB, G, LB, S and still can't pass the ball between the hash marks who cares? The Bills remain what their record says they are. Now go find that ball. What a simpleton way of looking at things.....but that is your right
Kirby Jackson Posted April 1, 2016 Posted April 1, 2016 What a simpleton way of looking at things.....but that is your right They were 8-8 so Sammy Watkins must not be good. They were 8-8 so the rushing offense must not be good.
YoloinOhio Posted April 1, 2016 Posted April 1, 2016 Preston Brown hasn't left the field since entering the NFL. I wouldn't call him a thumper. He struggled picking up the defense last year, but as a rookie he was one the top graded coverage LBS. Ragland dropped 20lbs. He is a very instinctive LB that never left the field in Alabama. He can also play the edge and rush the passer. He is going to be a great pro. The weight loss will help him stay on the field in the NFL. what is his weight now?
mannc Posted April 1, 2016 Posted April 1, 2016 You totally avoided the question. What teams have acquired more talent in the draft recently than the Bills. If you say that they are bad at drafting (as you have) I would expect at least 16 examples (half of the league) of teams that have drafted better over the last 5 years. The Bills have gone from a 6 win team to a 9 win team to an 8 win team with young talent (and poor coaching). Again, you said that they are bad at drafting. I asked you to go through the teams that have drafted better over the last 5 years. Unless you have 16 of them you remain wrong. With all due respect, that's a silly request. It is all but impossible to quantify who drafted "the best" over a five year period. How would you measure such a thing? How many pro bowlers were drafted, in which case a kicker might count the same as a franchise qb? (As BADOL would argue, what's important is how you do at drafting the key positions, like QB, edge rusher, and WR.) How many starters were drafted, in which case lousy teams will look better because they had more holes to fill? BV's point is that its very difficult to measure how well a team has drafted by simply analyzing and comparing the drafts pick-by-pick. Instead, he takes a results-oriented approach: How well has your team done on the field of play, in real NFL games? It's not a perfect measure, because there are other factors like coaching, free agents, etc, but since most everyone agrees that the draft is the best way to build a winning team, then W-L record is a pretty good proxy for how well you have drafted. It's hard to argue the point, IMO.
3rdand12 Posted April 1, 2016 Posted April 1, 2016 I will die on this particular hill with you, 1billsfan. Athletic ability does not equal good in coverage. Being smooth in your drops does, being exceptional at processing the play does, being disciplined to your assignment does. Reggie Ragland is a 3-down linebacker in this league and any other. You can take your fast 40 time and shove it up your arse, Darron Lee! ouch. in consensus, is it just wrong to draft either Lee ( high ceiling/raw) or Ragland (run def strong and ready ) at 19 ? It seems questionable now to me that Reggie cannot play 3 downs. For me it has become his readiness over his ceiling, and vice versa for Lee. But is their an agreement at nineteen you just do not take an ILB period unless it is a Urlacher or Kuechly type of player? Which neither of these are i suspect.
Pete Posted April 1, 2016 Posted April 1, 2016 With all due respect, that's a silly request. It is all but impossible to quantify who drafted "the best" over a five year period. How would you measure such a thing? How many pro bowlers were drafted, in which case a kicker might count the same as a franchise qb? (As BADOL would argue, what's important is how you do at drafting the key positions, like QB, edge rusher, and WR.) How many starters were drafted, in which case lousy teams will look better because they had more holes to fill? BV's point is that its very difficult to measure how well a team has drafted by simply analyzing and comparing the drafts pick-by-pick. Instead, he takes a results-oriented approach: How well has your team done on the field of play, in real NFL games? It's not a perfect measure, because there are other factors like coaching, free agents, etc, but since most everyone agrees that the draft is the best way to build a winning team, then W-L record is a pretty good proxy for how well you have drafted. It's hard to argue the point, IMO. 010 ROUND PLAYER POSITION UNIVERSITY NOTES 1 Haden, Joe CB Florida Pick 7 2 Ward, T.J. FS Oregon Pick 6 (38) 2 Hardesty, Montario RB Tennessee Pick 27 (59) (From Cowboys through Eagles) 3 McCoy, Colt QB Texas Pick 21 (85) (From Patriots through Raiders) 3 Lauvao, Shawn OL Arizona State Pick 28 (92) (From Jets) 5 Asante, Larry SS Nebraska Pick 29 (160) (From Jets) 6 Mitchell, Carlton WR South Florida Pick 8 (177) 6 Geathers, Clifton DE South Carolina Pick 17 (186) (From Panthers) Back to Top 2011 ROUND PLAYER POSITION UNIVERSITY NOTES 1 Taylor, Phil DT Baylor Pick 21 (From Kansas City) 2 Sheard, Jabaal DE Pittsburgh Pick 37 2 Little, Greg WR North Carolina Pick 59 (From Cowboys Atlanta) 4 Cameron, Jordan TE USC Pick 102 4 Marecic, Owen FB Stanford Pick 124 (From Atlanta) 5 Skrine, Buster DB Chatanooga Pick 137 5 Pinkston, Jason OT Pittsburgh Pick 150 (From NY Giants via Minnesota) 7 Hagg, Eric DB Nebraska Pick 248 Back to Top 2012 ROUND PLAYER POSITION UNIVERSITY NOTES 1 Richardson, Trent RB Alabama Pick 3 (From Minnesota) 1 Weeden, Brandon QB Oklahoma Pick 22 (From Atlanta) 2 Swartz, Mitchell OT California Pick 37 3 Hughes, John DT Cincinnati Pick 87 (From Denver) 4 Benjamin, Travis WR Miami Pick 100 4 Johnson, James-Michael LB Nevada Pick 120 (From Denver) 5 Miller, Ryan OG Colorado Pick 160 (From Denver) 6 Acho, Emmanuel LB Texas Pick 17 204 6 Winn, Billy DT Boise St. Pick 205 7 Wade, Trevin DB Arizona Pick 245 7 Smelley, Brad FB Alabama Pick 247 Back to Top 2013 ROUND PLAYER POSITION UNIVERSITY NOTES 1 Mingo, Barkevious RE LSU Pick 6 3 McFadden, Leon CB San Diego St. Pick 68 6 Slaughter, Jamoris SS Notre Dame Pick 175 7 Bryant, Armonty DE East Central Pick 217 (From Miami) 7 Gilkey, Garret OT Chardron Pick 227 (From Bengals through 49ers) Back to Top 2014 ROUND PLAYER POSITION UNIVERSITY NOTES 1 Gilbert, Justin CB Oklahoma St. Pick 8 (From Vikings) 1 Manziel, Johnny QB Texas A&M Pick 22 (From Eagles) 2 Bitonio, Joel OT Nevada Pick 35 3 Kirksey, Christian OLB Iowa Pick 71 3 West, Terrance RB Towson Pick 94 (From 49ers) 4 Desir, Pierre CB Lindenwood Pick 127 (From Colts) Back to Top 2015 ROUND PLAYER POSITION UNIVERSITY NOTES 1 Shelton, Danny DL Washington Pick 12 1 Erving, Cameron OL Florida St. Pick 19 2 Orchard, Nate LB Utah Pick 51 3 Johnson, Duke RB Miami Pick 77 3 Cooper, Xavier DL Washington St. Pick 96 4 Campbell, Ibraheim DB Northwestern Pick 115 4 Mayle, Vince WR Washington St. Pick 24 6 Gaines, Charles DB Louisville Pick 189 6 Johnson, Malcolm FB Mississippi St. Pick 195 6 Telfer, Randall TE USC Pick 198 7 Pullard, Hayes LB USC Pick 219 7 Ekpre-Olomu, Ifo DB Oregon Pick 241
mannc Posted April 2, 2016 Posted April 2, 2016 010 ROUND PLAYER POSITION UNIVERSITY NOTES 1 Haden, Joe CB Florida Pick 7 2 Ward, T.J. FS Oregon Pick 6 (38) 2 Hardesty, Montario RB Tennessee Pick 27 (59) (From Cowboys through Eagles) 3 McCoy, Colt QB Texas Pick 21 (85) (From Patriots through Raiders) 3 Lauvao, Shawn OL Arizona State Pick 28 (92) (From Jets) 5 Asante, Larry SS Nebraska Pick 29 (160) (From Jets) 6 Mitchell, Carlton WR South Florida Pick 8 (177) 6 Geathers, Clifton DE South Carolina Pick 17 (186) (From Panthers) Back to Top2011 ROUND PLAYER POSITION UNIVERSITY NOTES 1 Taylor, Phil DT Baylor Pick 21 (From Kansas City) 2 Sheard, Jabaal DE Pittsburgh Pick 37 2 Little, Greg WR North Carolina Pick 59 (From Cowboys Atlanta) 4 Cameron, Jordan TE USC Pick 102 4 Marecic, Owen FB Stanford Pick 124 (From Atlanta) 5 Skrine, Buster DB Chatanooga Pick 137 5 Pinkston, Jason OT Pittsburgh Pick 150 (From NY Giants via Minnesota) 7 Hagg, Eric DB Nebraska Pick 248Back to Top2012 ROUND PLAYER POSITION UNIVERSITY NOTES 1 Richardson, Trent RB Alabama Pick 3 (From Minnesota) 1 Weeden, Brandon QB Oklahoma Pick 22 (From Atlanta) 2 Swartz, Mitchell OT California Pick 37 3 Hughes, John DT Cincinnati Pick 87 (From Denver) 4 Benjamin, Travis WR Miami Pick 100 4 Johnson, James-Michael LB Nevada Pick 120 (From Denver) 5 Miller, Ryan OG Colorado Pick 160 (From Denver) 6 Acho, Emmanuel LB Texas Pick 17 204 6 Winn, Billy DT Boise St. Pick 205 7 Wade, Trevin DB Arizona Pick 245 7 Smelley, Brad FB Alabama Pick 247Back to Top2013 ROUND PLAYER POSITION UNIVERSITY NOTES 1 Mingo, Barkevious RE LSU Pick 6 3 McFadden, Leon CB San Diego St. Pick 68 6 Slaughter, Jamoris SS Notre Dame Pick 175 7 Bryant, Armonty DE East Central Pick 217 (From Miami) 7 Gilkey, Garret OT Chardron Pick 227 (From Bengals through 49ers)Back to Top2014 ROUND PLAYER POSITION UNIVERSITY NOTES 1 Gilbert, Justin CB Oklahoma St. Pick 8 (From Vikings) 1 Manziel, Johnny QB Texas A&M Pick 22 (From Eagles) 2 Bitonio, Joel OT Nevada Pick 35 3 Kirksey, Christian OLB Iowa Pick 71 3 West, Terrance RB Towson Pick 94 (From 49ers) 4 Desir, Pierre CB Lindenwood Pick 127 (From Colts)Back to Top2015 ROUND PLAYER POSITION UNIVERSITY NOTES 1 Shelton, Danny DL Washington Pick 12 1 Erving, Cameron OL Florida St. Pick 19 2 Orchard, Nate LB Utah Pick 51 3 Johnson, Duke RB Miami Pick 77 3 Cooper, Xavier DL Washington St. Pick 96 4 Campbell, Ibraheim DB Northwestern Pick 115 4 Mayle, Vince WR Washington St. Pick 24 6 Gaines, Charles DB Louisville Pick 189 6 Johnson, Malcolm FB Mississippi St. Pick 195 6 Telfer, Randall TE USC Pick 198 7 Pullard, Hayes LB USC Pick 219 7 Ekpre-Olomu, Ifo DB Oregon Pick 241 Ok. Great. The Bills have drafted better over the past five years than the Cleveland Browns, whose draft and win-loss records are simply deplorable (although it looks like they did have a nice draft in 2015). The point being debated was where exactly the Bills drafting ranks, league-wide, over that period, not whether they are at the absolute bottom. I would suggest, as did Bills Vet, that looking at a team's win-loss record is a pretty good indication of how well they have drafted. Your post does nothing to disprove that.
Kirby Jackson Posted April 2, 2016 Posted April 2, 2016 Ok. Great. The Bills have drafted better over the past five years than the Cleveland Browns, whose draft and win-loss records are simply deplorable (although it looks like they did have a nice draft in 2015). The point being debated was where exactly the Bills drafting ranks, league-wide, over that period, not whether they are at the absolute bottom. I would suggest, as did Bills Vet, that looking at a team's win-loss record is a pretty good indication of how well they have drafted. Your post does nothing to disprove that. The problem with Bills Vet's argument is that it is all or nothing. As an example I would say that the Bills ran the ball well last year. He would say no they didn't because they were 8-8. They ran the ball more effectively than any team in the league but he doesn't view it that way. They have added a lot of talent. He would disagree and point to the record. It doesn't work that way. The record is made up of good and bad aspects on and off the field. The combination of all of these variables dictates the eventual outcome.
BillsCelticsAngelsBama Posted April 2, 2016 Posted April 2, 2016 No matter how many times you slice it, the defining metric to what constitutes success is W-L record. There is nothing else. If they have all this talent, why aren't they more than a .500 team? And where is their talent? Because if you're outstanding at RB, G, LB, S and still can't pass the ball between the hash marks who cares? The Bills remain what their record says they are. Now go find that ball. Maybe they give out trophies such as "The Mel Kiper Award" to the teams accumulating the best talent during the draft. Guess we're a lock. The great Bill Russell was asked one year when the Celtics had a better regular season record but lost to another team , how it felt to lose in five games to a team that you were better than. His response was that the team with the most points is the better team, isn't that why you play the game ? I have always remembered that ... in my 17 years of coaching, I never forgot that AND he was the 1st one to articulate (way before his time), "Scoreboard, Baby". So I agree with you BillsVet it really is that simple.
mannc Posted April 2, 2016 Posted April 2, 2016 The problem with Bills Vet's argument is that it is all or nothing. As an example I would say that the Bills ran the ball well last year. He would say no they didn't because they were 8-8. They ran the ball more effectively than any team in the league but he doesn't view it that way. They have added a lot of talent. He would disagree and point to the record. It doesn't work that way. The record is made up of good and bad aspects on and off the field. The combination of all of these variables dictates the eventual outcome. I would agree that the Bills' talent-level has improved over the past three years and that they seem to have drafted better over that time. Their improved record is evidence of that. However, to say that their drafting/talent level is among the tops in the league is simply not supported by any real evidence that I can find.
Augie Posted April 2, 2016 Posted April 2, 2016 Because he drafted two poor ILB's? Whaley having a talent for drafting poor ILB's, and trading them for decent non-ILB's doesn't really help our ILB position. Because he made lemonade out of, well, shat. Whaley isn't our problem. The guy who had no clue on offense and the guy who was supposed to know defense are the problems.
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