Saxum Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 Personally, I could care less. I was asked to weigh in on the topic because of my experience. My best childhood memories are at the Ralph. I am fine either way. I'm just trying to bring about the issues that they will be discussing. You can choose to agree with me or not but please don't accuse me of having an agenda. Well I classify it as an agenda because you ignore facts like Vic who has shown he has an agenda since he got back - what would YOU call that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 (edited) Well I classify it as an agenda because you ignore facts like Vic who has shown he has an agenda since he got back - what would YOU call that?What facts am I ignoring? Obviously, they can sell naming rights now and make more money. No company is going to pay as much for a 45 year-old building used 10 times as a new stadium. I have a master's in sports management and 8 years on the business side in the front office. I have been through 2 team sales, a $200M renovation, threats of relocation, a lockout and a lease negotiation. I was heavily involved in all of those. The perspective that I present is from the experience that I have not from any personal agenda. I don't take too kindly to that. There are things that happen that the Bills can't come out and say because the fans will turn on them. The pricing of the stadium is one of the biggest issues. They are well aware that it is out of whack with the rest of the league. They also know how to resolve that issue and need the cover of the new stadium to do it. Edited March 29, 2016 by Kirby Jackson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 What facts am I ignoring? Obviously, they can sell naming rights now and make more money. No company is going to pay as much for a 45 year-old building used 10 times as a new stadium. I have a master's in sports management and 8 years on the business side in the front office. I have been through 2 team sales, a $200M renovation, threats of relocation, a lockout and a lease negotiation. I was heavily involved in all of those. The perspective that I present is from the experience that I have not from any personal agenda. There are things that happen that the Bills can't come out and say because the fans will turn on them. The pricing of the stadium is one of the biggest issues. They are well aware that it is out of whack with the rest of the league. They also know how to resolve that issue and need the cover of the new stadium to do it. Thanks for your insight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 Thanks for your insight.Ha ha, you're welcome Chan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 Personally, I could care less. I was asked to weigh in on the topic because of my experience. My best childhood memories are at the Ralph. I am fine either way. I'm just trying to bring about the issues that they will be discussing. You can choose to agree with me or not but please don't accuse me of having an agenda. I think this point is lost on many. I don't have your experience, but I tend to agree the direction is toward a new stadium at some point not too terribly far down the road. It's not necessarily what I want, but I don't see it going any other way. Sure, I could be wrong, but that's my opinion of what WILL happen, not what SHOULD happen. I don't get back enough these days to care much. I'll have a great time either way. And I'm doing it on rare occasions so the cost isn't that important. If I were coughing up for season tix and had my tail gaiting down to a science, I might feel very strongly toward the Ralph. I can also see some appeal to a new facility downtown. But I'll enjoy it either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hammered a Lot Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 In the end, I really don't care, just as long as my view of the field inside the Ralph does not change. My seats are close to perfect, as far as I am concerned. However, it is amazing to me what little bang for the buck the public received for their $130 million 'Ralph renovation'. Google erie county stadium renovations to see where all the $$ where spent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbb Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 I still do not see how they spent $130 million for the current renovations. They applied epoxy paint to the floors of the same crappy bathrooms, and those jagged boulders that surround the stadium are a lawsuit waiting to happen when some drunk eventually crashes into one head first.. (WTF was wrong with using reinforced concrete?) The place looks closer to being a prison instead of a well thought out renovation. The 'super gates' are pretty much useless since they closed off the back gates. Getting into the stadium is much more of a chore than it should be. The portion of the big video screen used to show replays is a waste of that fairly impressive LCD.. For the rest of the viewing, who the F cares about fantasy football while the game is going on? The additional force feeding of fans with bad advertising on the rest of the video footprint makes me think the screen $$$ just might've been better spent elsewhere The locker rooms must be primo, though. It must be what we don't see. Yup. That's it...... I'm for the Ralph, but you are totally right - the $130M reno was a dud. I think I started to get wifi last year, some games, not the first year. Those boulders - I thought the same thing!...........The bathrooms take longer, concessions are no better, the halls are super crowded. Not sure what we got. And the bad advertising - that guy using a squeegee is so distracting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simpleman Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 (edited) Google erie county stadium renovations to see where all the $$ where spent. Thank you. The actual ink is : http://www2.erie.gov/exec/index.php?q=ralph-wilson-stadium-improvements For those calling it a dud, looking at the list you have to understand the purpose of the upgrade. It was not done to improve the average fan's experience. The media/ screen upgrade was done for extra advertising revenue for the team. The upgrades to the players area was for the players. The broadcast media area was done for the benefit of the national sports media. The concession upgrades were for the vendors. not you (to allow the team to get more income from the vendors). There were upgrades to sections of the stadium that were designed to increase the appeal to the corporate customers and higher rollers that pay a lot more than the average fans for the privilege of being at the game. A big chunk was for the new team store upgrades to make more retail sales income for the team. There were security upgrades in response to the world getting more dangerous. The upgrades were primarily for the benefit of the team, not the fans. It was more of a gift to the team owners to entice them to redo the lease, and in a failed attempt to placate the leagues criticisms about the stadium's shortcomings. So it was not a failure. It was not primarily done to enhance the average fan's game day experience.. Of course the spin may have been that it was for that purpose. But that was just typical political spin and cover for the benefit of the politicians spending taxpayer dollars to do it. As I have mentioned repeatedly in this chain, retrofits can work, but they have to actually be designed with the real goal of increasing the fan experience and not just increasing revenue for the team. We are lucky to have a poster on this board who is able to give us a real peek into the mindset of the Bills management on this issue, Unfortunately it is quite obvious they believe it is easier for them to get the taxpayers to pay for an expensive new stadium so than can increase their profits, than it is to get the taxpayers to spend a lot less to renovate and upgrade The Ralph to enhance the fan experience enough to justify the size of the price increases they feel they need to get the extra income they desire. The whole stadium issue is not about the actual deficiencies of the Ralph, it is about generating an extra $25 million + a year in income for the Pegulas. It is about fulfilling the business desires of the Pegulas and the other NFL owners, not about delivering a better product for its customers or creating a better fan experience. It is all about the dollars. Period. Everything else that is used to justify a new stadium is mostly just used car salesman shtick,camouflage and propaganda. Edited March 30, 2016 by simpleman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 there is no "improving" the site lines for the football only ralph....they are already near perfect. any new stadium that is a multi purpose facility (like Lucas Oil Stadium) will only take folks farther away from the action. but the ralph is hardly used here is an Upcoming Events list for Lucas Oil Stadium http://www.lucasoilstadium.com/upcoming-events.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 (edited) there is no "improving" the site lines for the football only ralph....they are already near perfect. any new stadium that is a multi purpose facility (like Lucas Oil Stadium) will only take folks farther away from the action. but the ralph is hardly used here is an Upcoming Events list for Lucas Oil Stadium http://www.lucasoilstadium.com/upcoming-events.aspx There is really nothing there that cant be satisfied by a cheaper and nicer state of the art downtown convention center (other than "motocross" and the Big10 Championship). IMO, you have a new convention center, nice arena, AAA ballpark, and a nice brick and mortar amphitheater.... it is perfect and can host nearly everything all year around. These things would be much more cost effective and wiser than a football stadium I just cant see a new football-size stadium attracting anything worthwhile and adding to the downtown-proper. Maybe a hope and a prayer wrestlemania or a long-shot Final 4. Both 1-shot. There arent many stadium music tours to make it worthwhile.... and we just aren't going to draw people for any type of NCAA Football on any regular basis. Those low-level bowl games cant even draw flies in the hot-beds. As far as price goes.... be a competitive team and feel free to double my price. My Sabres season tickets have about doubled in less than 10 years and I dont feel slighted or that I lost ownership of the seats. In fact, I already renewed for next season. If the Sabres were playing in the Aud, Id pay quadruple. Edited March 30, 2016 by May Day 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardcore Bills Fan Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 I'm for the Ralph, but you are totally right - the $130M reno was a dud. I think I started to get wifi last year, some games, not the first year. Those boulders - I thought the same thing!...........The bathrooms take longer, concessions are no better, the halls are super crowded. Not sure what we got. And the bad advertising - that guy using a squeegee is so distracting! Who the heck care's about getting wifi during the game? That is the stupidest thing i ever heard, no wifi, boo freaking ho. you are there to watch the game not facebook. Bathrooms are what they are, go to any other Buffalo event, same story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillnutinHouston Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Thank you. The actual ink is : http://www2.erie.gov/exec/index.php?q=ralph-wilson-stadium-improvements For those calling it a dud, looking at the list you have to understand the purpose of the upgrade. It was not done to improve the average fan's experience. The media/ screen upgrade was done for extra advertising revenue for the team. The upgrades to the players area was for the players. The broadcast media area was done for the benefit of the national sports media. The concession upgrades were for the vendors. not you (to allow the team to get more income from the vendors). There were upgrades to sections of the stadium that were designed to increase the appeal to the corporate customers and higher rollers that pay a lot more than the average fans for the privilege of being at the game. A big chunk was for the new team store upgrades to make more retail sales income for the team. There were security upgrades in response to the world getting more dangerous. The upgrades were primarily for the benefit of the team, not the fans. It was more of a gift to the team owners to entice them to redo the lease, and in a failed attempt to placate the leagues criticisms about the stadium's shortcomings. So it was not a failure. It was not primarily done to enhance the average fan's game day experience.. Of course the spin may have been that it was for that purpose. But that was just typical political spin and cover for the benefit of the politicians spending taxpayer dollars to do it. As I have mentioned repeatedly in this chain, retrofits can work, but they have to actually be designed with the real goal of increasing the fan experience and not just increasing revenue for the team. We are lucky to have a poster on this board who is able to give us a real peek into the mindset of the Bills management on this issue, Unfortunately it is quite obvious they believe it is easier for them to get the taxpayers to pay for an expensive new stadium so than can increase their profits, than it is to get the taxpayers to spend a lot less to renovate and upgrade The Ralph to enhance the fan experience enough to justify the size of the price increases they feel they need to get the extra income they desire. The whole stadium issue is not about the actual deficiencies of the Ralph, it is about generating an extra $25 million + a year in income for the Pegulas. It is about fulfilling the business desires of the Pegulas and the other NFL owners, not about delivering a better product for its customers or creating a better fan experience. It is all about the dollars. Period. Everything else that is used to justify a new stadium is mostly just used car salesman shtick,camouflage and propaganda. This post reveals to me that you're more insightful than your earlier posts led me to believe. I was ready to write you off based on some of your earlier debating with Kirby, but maybe I was misreading. By all means, take the above as a compliment. It's clear that maximizing revenue is the predominant driver of the path chosen. But since the Pegulas appear to be highly mindful about maintaining good PR, whichever path is chosen will have to be one that the Pegulas are 100% comfortable with selling to their customers. It will be interesting to see how they attempt to thread the needle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbb Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Who the heck care's about getting wifi during the game? That is the stupidest thing i ever heard, no wifi, boo freaking ho. you are there to watch the game not facebook. Bathrooms are what they are, go to any other Buffalo event, same story. Getting wifi is the stupidest thing you've ever heard. Wow - you've led a charmed life. A. They said there would be wifi. That was one of the big new things in the $130M upgrade. B. When you're not on wifi, you rarely can use your phone at all. It won't work with all those people there with their own phones. C. Watch those boulders on your way out, grandpa. You might break a hip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Thank you. The actual ink is : http://www2.erie.gov/exec/index.php?q=ralph-wilson-stadium-improvements For those calling it a dud, looking at the list you have to understand the purpose of the upgrade. It was not done to improve the average fan's experience. The media/ screen upgrade was done for extra advertising revenue for the team. The upgrades to the players area was for the players. The broadcast media area was done for the benefit of the national sports media. The concession upgrades were for the vendors. not you (to allow the team to get more income from the vendors). There were upgrades to sections of the stadium that were designed to increase the appeal to the corporate customers and higher rollers that pay a lot more than the average fans for the privilege of being at the game. A big chunk was for the new team store upgrades to make more retail sales income for the team. There were security upgrades in response to the world getting more dangerous. The upgrades were primarily for the benefit of the team, not the fans. It was more of a gift to the team owners to entice them to redo the lease, and in a failed attempt to placate the leagues criticisms about the stadium's shortcomings. So it was not a failure. It was not primarily done to enhance the average fan's game day experience.. Of course the spin may have been that it was for that purpose. But that was just typical political spin and cover for the benefit of the politicians spending taxpayer dollars to do it. As I have mentioned repeatedly in this chain, retrofits can work, but they have to actually be designed with the real goal of increasing the fan experience and not just increasing revenue for the team. We are lucky to have a poster on this board who is able to give us a real peek into the mindset of the Bills management on this issue, Unfortunately it is quite obvious they believe it is easier for them to get the taxpayers to pay for an expensive new stadium so than can increase their profits, than it is to get the taxpayers to spend a lot less to renovate and upgrade The Ralph to enhance the fan experience enough to justify the size of the price increases they feel they need to get the extra income they desire. The whole stadium issue is not about the actual deficiencies of the Ralph, it is about generating an extra $25 million + a year in income for the Pegulas. It is about fulfilling the business desires of the Pegulas and the other NFL owners, not about delivering a better product for its customers or creating a better fan experience. It is all about the dollars. Period. Everything else that is used to justify a new stadium is mostly just used car salesman shtick,camouflage and propaganda. Not sure why you think that is enlightening. Even for 13 cents on the dollar versus constructing a new facility the renovation was a dud. And I'm not saying there was much they could have done better........they had to do it as a bridge........but renovations are cash burners and they are only worthwhile if the faclility has 3 key elements: location, location and location. We love the tailgating but the Ralph is a jumbled mish-mash of a facility on the outskirts of a suburban town........the high rollers you are speaking of aren't looking for that experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbb Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Thank you. The actual ink is : http://www2.erie.gov/exec/index.php?q=ralph-wilson-stadium-improvements For those calling it a dud, looking at the list you have to understand the purpose of the upgrade. It was not done to improve the average fan's experience. The media/ screen upgrade was done for extra advertising revenue for the team. The upgrades to the players area was for the players. The broadcast media area was done for the benefit of the national sports media. The concession upgrades were for the vendors. not you (to allow the team to get more income from the vendors). There were upgrades to sections of the stadium that were designed to increase the appeal to the corporate customers and higher rollers that pay a lot more than the average fans for the privilege of being at the game. A big chunk was for the new team store upgrades to make more retail sales income for the team. There were security upgrades in response to the world getting more dangerous. The upgrades were primarily for the benefit of the team, not the fans. It was more of a gift to the team owners to entice them to redo the lease, and in a failed attempt to placate the leagues criticisms about the stadium's shortcomings. So it was not a failure. It was not primarily done to enhance the average fan's game day experience.. Of course the spin may have been that it was for that purpose. But that was just typical political spin and cover for the benefit of the politicians spending taxpayer dollars to do it. As I have mentioned repeatedly in this chain, retrofits can work, but they have to actually be designed with the real goal of increasing the fan experience and not just increasing revenue for the team. We are lucky to have a poster on this board who is able to give us a real peek into the mindset of the Bills management on this issue, Unfortunately it is quite obvious they believe it is easier for them to get the taxpayers to pay for an expensive new stadium so than can increase their profits, than it is to get the taxpayers to spend a lot less to renovate and upgrade The Ralph to enhance the fan experience enough to justify the size of the price increases they feel they need to get the extra income they desire. The whole stadium issue is not about the actual deficiencies of the Ralph, it is about generating an extra $25 million + a year in income for the Pegulas. It is about fulfilling the business desires of the Pegulas and the other NFL owners, not about delivering a better product for its customers or creating a better fan experience. It is all about the dollars. Period. Everything else that is used to justify a new stadium is mostly just used car salesman shtick,camouflage and propaganda. That was the spin, for sure. That's why it was pretty much nothing to me. The other stuff sounds good - it just wasn't sold as such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 (edited) A wise man (from this very board) once told me...no matter how hot she is, someone somewhere is sick of her ****. Yea, but if your getting **** from the ugly one, may as well upgrade to the hot one. If the price doubles and you get moved further away, you might want some of those amenities Edited March 31, 2016 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simpleman Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Not sure why you think that is enlightening. Even for 13 cents on the dollar versus constructing a new facility the renovation was a dud. And I'm not saying there was much they could have done better........they had to do it as a bridge........but renovations are cash burners and they are only worthwhile if the faclility has 3 key elements: location, location and location. We love the tailgating but the Ralph is a jumbled mish-mash of a facility on the outskirts of a suburban town........the high rollers you are speaking of aren't looking for that experience. Location is in the eyes of the beholder. <sarcasm font>The City of Buffalo has such a major concentration of the residences of the richest people in the Bills market area.</sarcasm font> Check out the demograhics by zip code of WNY. There are as many high income individuals in the homes in those "suburban towns" like Orchard Park and Clarence as there are in the City of Buffalo. High rollers/corporate owners who live in the area are the people we are talking about. A location in downtown Buffalo is not any closer or more convenient for a majority of them than the current location. The current location has great access via roads. There is nothing wrong with the location as far as access and convenience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hammered a Lot Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Location is in the eyes of the beholder. <sarcasm font>The City of Buffalo has such a major concentration of the residences of the richest people in the Bills market area.</sarcasm font> Check out the demograhics by zip code of WNY. There are as many high income individuals in the homes in those "suburban towns" like Orchard Park and Clarence as there are in the City of Buffalo. High rollers/corporate owners who live in the area are the people we are talking about. A location in downtown Buffalo is not any closer or more convenient for a majority of them than the current location. The current location has great access via roads. There is nothing wrong with the location as far as access and convenience. Infrastructure water, sewer, electric already there. New Maintence and concession/ Video building just built. This year there is another round of work being done, part of the $130 million. I think the Pegulas are happy on the 199 acre complex in Orchard Park. I wonder when they remodel Da Ralph or build a new stadium in OP if all the downtown supports will still support the Bills as season ticket holders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardcore Bills Fan Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Getting wifi is the stupidest thing you've ever heard. Wow - you've led a charmed life. A. They said there would be wifi. That was one of the big new things in the $130M upgrade. B. When you're not on wifi, you rarely can use your phone at all. It won't work with all those people there with their own phones. C. Watch those boulders on your way out, grandpa. You might break a hip. you're right, i am old school, to think i pay all that money to actually watch a game and not facebook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbb Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 you're right, i am old school, to think i pay all that money to actually watch a game and not facebook This will be my 31st straight season of Facebook season tickets. I have been to a Facebook event every year since my Dad took me to the Rockpile to tweet in 1968. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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