NFL Execs say Bills should get moving on new stadium

[sullim4]

I tend to agree with those who say this is going to play out at the end of the current lease in 2022.

 

Look, take away all of the frivolous amenities that the newer stadiums have, like the restaurants, luxury suites, etc. Even not considering those items, RWS is behind the times. Bleachers with backs went out of favor 40 years ago. Several of the club seats have broken heaters and can't be repaired. The flow of people coming into the stadium is slow due to its dated layout. Per capita restroom capacity is insufficient.

 

Those are the reasons the team wants an improvement to their facility situation. Jerry Jones will not decide on the timetable to build a new stadium.

 

I think the Pegulas are well aware of the angst PSLs cause the fan base and the questionable demand for the luxury suites in the Buffalo market. I think one possible outcome is a retrofit of the existing facility and a significant price increase to tickets in order to pay for it. This will price out the drunk college students, who the Bills lose money on anyway, and still keep it affordable enough for current season ticket holders to keep their seats.

 

However, I also think they want a downtown stadium to feed into their other partnerships at Harborcenter. Such a project would take a significant amount of cash in terms of buying up land, and building infrastructure to support the facility. It would be hundreds of millions more expensive than a retrofit, require PSLs, significant public money, a large hike in ticket prices, and require corporate support to buy premium seating.

 

It will be interesting to watch the process unfold.

[bbb]

Maybe they were counting on that new stadium in Toronto or LA and got caught off guard. Who ever heard of Pegula until he rode into town and bought the Sabres. Jacobs couldn't buy them because of the Bruins and Trump was just a joke.

 

I'm so glad that Trump might become POTUS instead of something more important to me - Bills owner.

 

[Hammered a Lot]

I was a part of a $200M upgrade. I was a part of a lease negotiation. I really do get what's being said in those rooms. The retrofit alienates too many current fans. That's its downfall. People don't downgrade locations. They don't. You can't afford to alienate that many people. No one will ever come out and say that but I promise that is at the top of their list. How do we make as much money as we can while making as many people happy as we can?

The Bills did a retrofit when the dug out suites were put in. Fans were reseated. It worked out. All businesses want to make as much as they can and keep their customers happy. That's basic business 101. But what are my expenses to get there. The lower my debt, the more I make. Concerning one of my businesses, if I buy a brand new piece of equipment at $20,000 or a used piece at $10,000 and can get the job done/ happy customer, I'm going for the $10,000 my happy wallet. I know people who sit in Terry's Penn State football suite to personaly guard him when needed. Everyone describes him as a down to earth guy with a lot of money. So a question could be is he more a business man (new stadium) and its debt load or is he connected to the Ralph (retro) emotionally, the stadium he watch Bills football in, and to honor Ralph and its smaller debt load. We will see in 3-4 years.

[bigK14094]

Poloncarz is firing his musket in the press not liking the pressure from the NFL owners. But, to deal with those guys, Poloncarz is not much of a player.(Cuomo will be our guy) You deal with those guys in the conference room....you don't do it in the press. Poloncarz is more likely running for office here...its a political statement. He may be right in a lot of what he says, he just should muzzle himself and handle himself in a big league way.

I was a part of a $200M upgrade. I was a part of a lease negotiation. I really do get what's being said in those rooms. The retrofit alienates too many current fans. That's its downfall. People don't downgrade locations. They don't. You can't afford to alienate that many people. No one will ever come out and say that but I promise that is at the top of their list. How do we make as much money as we can while making as many people happy as we can?

But, why did the last "retrofit" have to eliminate the drinking fountains......was it to sell more $5 bottles of water? Its about the money folks.......I am a current season ticket holder, but I won't be in any downtown venue...no tailgating and not enough roads in and out.

[BUFFALOKIE]

 

So you think Pegula, who is in a business which shares revenue, should tell Mara, who contributes $20m more annually in ticket revenue, to blow him?

 

Do I think Buffalo can make as much in ticket revenue as NY? No obviously not, but I understand owners who contribute more than other owners wanting those owners to maximize their contribution. This is a business for them.

Even IF buffalo could generate an additional 20 million per year in ticket revenue, how does that justify a new billion dollar stadium?

[NoSaint]

The Bills did a retrofit when the dug out suites were put in. Fans were reseated. It worked out.

I'm not familiar with section to section pricing changes and such but how much of the stadium saw substantial (not 5-10%, but larger) pricing increases in that?

 

Kirby isn't just talking relocation, but getting a less premium seat location for potentially a higher cost.... And his point that a clean slate with beefed up amenities helps make that sale feasible is valid I think.

[QCity]

I am a current season ticket holder, but I won't be in any downtown venue...no tailgating and not enough roads in and out.

 

Rest assured, as long as there is a parking lot there will be tailgating. And there are enough roads to accommodate the ~80K people that work downtown every weekday, it's not the catastrophe some are making it out to be.

 

Even IF buffalo could generate an additional 20 million per year in ticket revenue, how does that justify a new billion dollar stadium?

 

 

Why do people keep saying "a billion?" Where exactly is that coming from?

 

The Texans build Reliant Stadium for $352M in 2002 ($464M today), and that seats 72,000 with a retractable roof. A higher-end stadium like Lucas Oil cost $720M in 2008 ($792M today). Every new stadium doesn't have to be Jerry World.

 

It's like saying we need to spend $100K on a brand new car. No, we don't need to buy a Mercedes, there are plenty of fantastic new cars that can be bought for half that price. But, I guess throwing around $500M - $700M prices sort of destroys the pipe-dream of retrofitting The Ralph (and it is a pipe-dream).

[Mr. WEO]

 

Rest assured, as long as there is a parking lot there will be tailgating. And there are enough roads to accommodate the ~80K people that work downtown every weekday, it's not the catastrophe some are making it out to be.

 

 

 

Why do people keep saying "a billion?" Where exactly is that coming from?

 

The Texans build Reliant Stadium for $352M in 2002 ($464M today), and that seats 72,000 with a retractable roof. A higher-end stadium like Lucas Oil cost $720M in 2008 ($792M today). Every new stadium doesn't have to be Jerry World.

 

It's like saying we need to spend $100K on a brand new car. No, we don't need to buy a Mercedes, there are plenty of fantastic new cars that can be bought for half that price. But, I guess throwing around $500M - $700M prices sort of destroys the pipe-dream of retrofitting The Ralph (and it is a pipe-dream).

 

 

Who in the last 10 years has built an NFL stadium for 500-700 million?

[Kirby Jackson]

The Bills did a retrofit when the dug out suites were put in. Fans were reseated. It worked out. All businesses want to make as much as they can and keep their customers happy. That's basic business 101. But what are my expenses to get there. The lower my debt, the more I make. Concerning one of my businesses, if I buy a brand new piece of equipment at $20,000 or a used piece at $10,000 and can get the job done/ happy customer, I'm going for the $10,000 my happy wallet. I know people who sit in Terry's Penn State football suite to personaly guard him when needed. Everyone describes him as a down to earth guy with a lot of money. So a question could be is he more a business man (new stadium) and its debt load or is he connected to the Ralph (retro) emotionally, the stadium he watch Bills football in, and to honor Ralph and its smaller debt load. We will see in 3-4 years.

The biggest difference with the 1st stadium upgrade and now is the price difference in the seats that will be changed. The first iteration did not impact the longest tenured customers (lower bowl between the 30's). Those seats are now $1000 for the season. In the new stadium I would be surprised if they are less than $2000 (more likely $2500 a piece). The revenue goals are just moving that quickly. The Bills will never catch the Giants of the world but they need to be more in line with Cleveland, Detroit, New Orleans and other similar markets.

[Hammered a Lot]

 

Rest assured, as long as there is a parking lot there will be tailgating. And there are enough roads to accommodate the ~80K people that work downtown every weekday, it's not the catastrophe some are making it out to be.

 

 

 

Why do people keep saying "a billion?" Where exactly is that coming from?

 

The Texans build Reliant Stadium for $352M in 2002 ($464M today), and that seats 72,000 with a retractable roof. A higher-end stadium like Lucas Oil cost $720M in 2008 ($792M today). Every new stadium doesn't have to be Jerry World.

 

It's like saying we need to spend $100K on a brand new car. No, we don't need to buy a Mercedes, there are plenty of fantastic new cars that can be bought for half that price. But, I guess throwing around $500M - $700M prices sort of destroys the pipe-dream of retrofitting The Ralph (and it is a pipe-dream).

When NY State Goverment money is used, all work must be paid as if it is a union job so double or more the cost. Was Union wages paid on the stadiums you mentioned?

[QCity]

When NY State Goverment money is used, all work must be paid as if it is a union job so double or more the cost. Was Union wages paid on the stadiums you mentioned?

 

A fair question. I have no idea in Texas or Indiana.

[BUFFALOKIE]

 

Rest assured, as long as there is a parking lot there will be tailgating. And there are enough roads to accommodate the ~80K people that work downtown every weekday, it's not the catastrophe some are making it out to be.

 

 

 

Why do people keep saying "a billion?" Where exactly is that coming from?

 

The Texans build Reliant Stadium for $352M in 2002 ($464M today), and that seats 72,000 with a retractable roof. A higher-end stadium like Lucas Oil cost $720M in 2008 ($792M today). Every new stadium doesn't have to be Jerry World.

 

It's like saying we need to spend $100K on a brand new car. No, we don't need to buy a Mercedes, there are plenty of fantastic new cars that can be bought for half that price. But, I guess throwing around $500M - $700M prices sort of destroys the pipe-dream of retrofitting The Ralph (and it is a pipe-dream).

okay. Call it 1/2 billion. 500 million. For 20 million annual increase in proffit.

 

If I told you that you could invest $500 and make $20 more than you already make annually, would you do it?

[QCity]

okay. Call it 1/2 billion. 500 million. For 20 million annual increase in proffit.

 

If I told you that you could invest $500 and make $20 more than you already make annually, would you do it?

 

What am I getting for making that investment? Your analogy doesn't account for the new product that is built (the stadium).

 

If that $20 is increasing every year with inflation like ticket prices, then you would certainly profit eventually.

 

Would that be considered a good investment vehicle for an individual person? No way. But we're talking a stadium that could last 30-40 years.

[Hammered a Lot]

I'm not familiar with section to section pricing changes and such but how much of the stadium saw substantial (not 5-10%, but larger) pricing increases in that?

 

Kirby isn't just talking relocation, but getting a less premium seat location for potentially a higher cost.... And his point that a clean slate with beefed up amenities helps make that sale feasible is valid I think.

I can not tell you what the price increase if any in the lower bowl when they did the dugout suite reseating. I understand his point.

[hondo in seattle]

 

Rest assured, as long as there is a parking lot there will be tailgating. And there are enough roads to accommodate the ~80K people that work downtown every weekday, it's not the catastrophe some are making it out to be.

 

 

 

Why do people keep saying "a billion?" Where exactly is that coming from?

 

The Texans build Reliant Stadium for $352M in 2002 ($464M today), and that seats 72,000 with a retractable roof. A higher-end stadium like Lucas Oil cost $720M in 2008 ($792M today). Every new stadium doesn't have to be Jerry World.

 

It's like saying we need to spend $100K on a brand new car. No, we don't need to buy a Mercedes, there are plenty of fantastic new cars that can be bought for half that price. But, I guess throwing around $500M - $700M prices sort of destroys the pipe-dream of retrofitting The Ralph (and it is a pipe-dream).

 

 

Billion is a rough guestimate. But the NFL doesn't want to build stadiums that are simply a place to watch a game anymore. They want elaborate puzzle palaces - huge entertainment venues with multiple revenue streams and lots of high tech bells and whistles.

 

That's why the recent trend is to build stadiums for price tags in excess of one billion. Levi's and At&T (Jerry World) both cost about $1.3 billion. Metlife cost about $1.6B. The new stadium in LA is reported being built for $2.6B.

 

Lucas was built for $735 million 8 years ago. The NFL wants us to build our stadium 5-10 years in the future. Given cost inflation - and the inflation of expectations - we're not likely to build a stadium for under $1 billion that will make the NFL happy.

 

When I hear the NFL is pushing the Bills to build a new stadium, I don't think they're envisioning Reliant Stadium. We could probably renovate the Ralph and reach that mark. The NFL is thinking something grander, I would think.

Edited March 26, 2016 by hondo in seattle

[bbb]

My vote is to keep the Ralph, but if there was a new stadium downtown, it seems like it would dovetail nice with this (somebody above was asking about getting people in and out of downtown):

 

http://www.buffalonews.com/city-region/downtown-waterfront/transit-hub-shops-would-anchor-dlw-terminal-in-42-million-plan-20160325

[That's No Moon]

My vote is to keep the Ralph, but if there was a new stadium downtown, it seems like it would dovetail nice with this (somebody above was asking about getting people in and out of downtown):

 

http://www.buffalonews.com/city-region/downtown-waterfront/transit-hub-shops-would-anchor-dlw-terminal-in-42-million-plan-20160325

So there was a 120k SF commerical space available in an actual historic building all along. Who knew. We're going to look back at the day Bass Pro decided against building at Canalside as the best thing that ever happened.

 

If they park the new stadium down on Ohio St it's a short spur to add on. If they stick it in between the arena and the casino (like they should) it will fit right in. FWIW, in that scenario I fully advocate having an elevated playing surface so the grid can remain intact underneath. The streets can be closed to traffic on game days. Having the building itself be a part of the city grid system opens up a lot more possibilities during the rest of the non-football season rather than having an isolated barn surrounded by a moat of parking.

[BADOLBILZ]

 

This is correct.

 

My example of the number of people willing to shell out $100-$200/game for 4 home games of a playoff hockey series without hesitation back in 2005 is a prime indicator of just how easily you'll find 60k+ people that will go to the games.

 

 

I am in agreement......if the product is good the seats will be full.

 

And that doesn't necessarily mean they have to do much more than win like an average franchise.................the key is that an organizational identity needs to be developed to make the brand the primary selling point.

 

To paraphrase Russ Brandon......"The brand is tarnished".

 

During the 40 or so lucid years of RW owning the team he failed to make the Bills a lovable brand because he always made it clear with his mercurial and often senseless stewardship that it was his toy and he'd do with it as he pleased and it really wasn't until the kids of the SB era grew up.....naiive to how badly RW could run the team given the chance......until the Bills actually had a brand identity to the point that if they dropped to 4-12 they wouldn't have been left with 20-30K people in the stands most weeks.

[Webster Guy]

Yeah for 8 games a year we should blow hundreds of millions when our current stadium was just updated.

 

Wait...the NFL commish out of touch with reality? Naaaaah, doesn't sound like him.

[Mr. WEO]

Yeah for 8 games a year we should blow hundreds of millions when our current stadium was just updated.

 

Wait...the NFL commish out of touch with reality? Naaaaah, doesn't sound like him.

 

 

This isn't coming from Goodell, but comments like this are the reason that his bosses pay him 30-40 million a year...