Rob's House Posted June 21, 2020 Posted June 21, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Warcodered said: If the meaning is so obvious why don't you explain. that it's not exactly hard to see why protesters against systemic racism would pull down a statue of a known slave trader? It's easy to see why morons would, but viewing a man from the 1400s through the ethnocentric lens of 21st century American morality is patently absurd. The concept of individual liberty wasn't present anywhere in the world. Conquest and subjugation was the norm among all civilizations. There is nothing particularly out of the ordinary about this. Columbus isn't remembered for being the wokest angel of his time, he's remembered for bringing European civilization to the Americas. Ethnocentric purity tests aren't enlightened. They're fu¢king stupid. Edited June 21, 2020 by Rob's House 1 3
Warcodered Posted June 21, 2020 Posted June 21, 2020 Just now, Rob's House said: It's easy to see why morons would, but viewing a man from the 1400s through the ethnocentric lens of 21st century American morality is patently absurd. The concept of individual liberty wasn't present anywhere in the world. Conquest and subjugation was the norm among all civilizations. There is nothing particularly out of the ordinary about this. Columbus isn't remembered for being the wokest angel of his time, he's remembered for bringing civilization to the Americas. Ethnocentric purity tests aren't enlightened. They're fu¢king stupid. Right because the ones that were already here didn't count....for reasons.
Deranged Rhino Posted June 21, 2020 Posted June 21, 2020 15 minutes ago, Warcodered said: In his journal, Columbus didn’t mince words about his intentions after meeting the Arawak natives in the Bahamas in 1492. He described the encounter thusly: “They ... brought us parrots and balls of cotton and spears and many other things ... They willingly traded everything they owned ... They were well-built, with good bodies and handsome features .... They do not bear arms, and do not know them, for I showed them a sword, they took it by the edge and cut themselves out of ignorance. They have no iron. Their spears are made of cane. ... They would make fine servants. ... With fifty men we could subjugate them all and make them do whatever we want.” Columbus would add: “As soon as I arrived in the Indies, on the first Island which I found, I took some of the natives by force in order that they might learn and might give me information of whatever there is in these parts.” And that's different from the others in his day... how? Right. You can't look back at history using a modern lens to pass judgment -- unless you're a Marxist practicing critical theory in order to destroy the past. Thank you for proving my point. 3 1
Commsvet11 Posted June 21, 2020 Posted June 21, 2020 1 minute ago, Warcodered said: Right because the ones that were already here didn't count....for reasons. Well looks like you have your beef, take it up with Columbus then. 1
Warcodered Posted June 21, 2020 Posted June 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said: And that's different from the others in his day... how? Right. You can't look back at history using a modern lens to pass judgment -- unless you're a Marxist practicing critical theory in order to destroy the past. Thank you for proving my point. So you can't look at the past and see that people did some ***** up ***** unless you're a communist, and that's what you believe?
Deranged Rhino Posted June 21, 2020 Posted June 21, 2020 1 minute ago, Warcodered said: So you can't look at the past and see that people did some ***** up ***** unless you're a communist, and that's what you believe? I'm a historian with multiple degrees on the subject. What I said was different than what you're implying. I said, you cannot look back at the past with a modern lens in order to pass judgment unless your goal is to be dishonest about history itself. It's Critical Theory 101 -- which is Marxist. It's goal is not to give you an understanding of history, but to shade it and distort it into "evil" in order to destroy it. And you're playing right along with it because you're not stopping to think for yourself. 6
Warcodered Posted June 21, 2020 Posted June 21, 2020 10 minutes ago, Chef Jim said: Take a moment to look at the cartoon and use your critical thinking skills. I’m sure you’ll figure it out on your own. Yet another person whom seems to think this cartoon is obvious maybe you can be the one to explain what pulling down a statue of Columbus has to do with Communism. I'm beginning to wonder if you guys actually no what Communism and Socialism mean or if it's just somehow become slang for thing you don't like.
Chef Jim Posted June 21, 2020 Posted June 21, 2020 5 minutes ago, Warcodered said: Right because the ones that were already here didn't count....for reasons. Let me ask you a question. Not sure how old you are but did you, your dad or your grampa ever concern themselves with drinking while they drove? My dad never thought twice about driving with a beer between his legs. We’d be horrified at the thought of that today. And that’s just 40 plus years ago. Not sure if this is a good analogy but it was the first one that popped in my head. 1 1
Deranged Rhino Posted June 21, 2020 Posted June 21, 2020 Just now, Warcodered said: Yet another person whom seems to think this cartoon is obvious maybe you can be the one to explain what pulling down a statue of Columbus has to do with Communism. I'm beginning to wonder if you guys actually no what Communism and Socialism mean or if it's just somehow become slang for thing you don't like. It is obvious. So obvious it took me one sentence to explain it. But you're in denial about what's actually happening. Which is why you're lost. 3 1
Chef Jim Posted June 21, 2020 Posted June 21, 2020 1 minute ago, Warcodered said: Yet another person whom seems to think this cartoon is obvious maybe you can be the one to explain what pulling down a statue of Columbus has to do with Communism. It has NOTHING to do with communism and everything to do with critical thinking and change. 3
Warcodered Posted June 21, 2020 Posted June 21, 2020 16 minutes ago, Chef Jim said: It has NOTHING to do with communism and everything to do with critical thinking and change. Right so go off the cartoon the implication is that the pulling down of Columbus' statue leads to Communism could you tell me how? 19 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said: I'm a historian with multiple degrees on the subject. What I said was different than what you're implying. I said, you cannot look back at the past with a modern lens in order to pass judgment unless your goal is to be dishonest about history itself. It's Critical Theory 101 -- which is Marxist. It's goal is not to give you an understanding of history, but to shade it and distort it into "evil" in order to destroy it. And you're playing right along with it because you're not stopping to think for yourself. So you're of the opinion that morality is subjective?
Deranged Rhino Posted June 21, 2020 Posted June 21, 2020 1 minute ago, Warcodered said: So you're of the opinion that morality is subjective? Morality changes throughout history. That's not a revolutionary statement, it's fact. And if you judge the past using the modern lens, you'll always be misled. 3 1
Warcodered Posted June 21, 2020 Posted June 21, 2020 7 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said: Morality changes throughout history. That's not a revolutionary statement, it's fact. I'm diametrically opposed to this so I doubt we'd be able to find common ground there. 8 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said: And if you judge the past using the modern lens, you'll always be misled. But I do think I see how this could be possible, though I believe if you think carefully and keep a level head you can avoid it.
unbillievable Posted June 21, 2020 Posted June 21, 2020 1 minute ago, Warcodered said: I'm diametrically opposed to this so I doubt we'd be able to find common ground there. 3 months ago, no one wore a mask to go to the grocery store. It is now immoral to do so. 4
Deranged Rhino Posted June 21, 2020 Posted June 21, 2020 27 minutes ago, Warcodered said: I'm diametrically opposed to this so I doubt we'd be able to find common ground there You're diametrically opposed to a basic fact? It's not an issue of opinion. But that's because somewhere you had a Marxist teacher, or you've fallen under the spell of critical theory in all its toxic forms. Slavery existed since the beginning of time. It existed long before Columbus came here, it existed long after he shuffled off this mortal coil. Expecting a man to completely change -- not just his own perspective, but that of the entire world, based on modern moralities and ideologies is dishonest to its core. It does not illuminate truth of the past, it hides it and buries it under nonsense. 30 minutes ago, Warcodered said: But I do think I see how this could be possible, though I believe if you think carefully and keep a level head you can avoid it. Keeping a level would mean not being diametrically opposed to a fact
Chef Jim Posted June 21, 2020 Posted June 21, 2020 44 minutes ago, Warcodered said: Right so go off the cartoon the implication is that the pulling down of Columbus' statue leads to Communism could you tell me how? No I took it to mean be mindful of your idols.
Rob's House Posted June 21, 2020 Posted June 21, 2020 38 minutes ago, Warcodered said: I'm diametrically opposed to this so I doubt we'd be able to find common ground there. The implicit statement in all these ethnocentric declarations is "if I lived in that time I would be against it." The only thing you're actually communicating is that you don't understand moral psychology and you want to feel/signal moral superiority. The truth is you have no idea how you would have felt had you been raised in different times under different circumstances. Any suggestion to the contrary is hubris. 7
BillStime Posted June 21, 2020 Posted June 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, Rob's House said: The implicit statement in all these ethnocentric declarations is "if I lived in that time I would be against it." The only thing you're actually communicating is that you don't understand moral psychology and you want to feel/signal moral superiority. The truth is you have no idea how you would have felt had you been raised in different times under different circumstances. Any suggestion to the contrary is hubris. Another @Deranged Rhino handle - you go bro
Warcodered Posted June 21, 2020 Posted June 21, 2020 35 minutes ago, unbillievable said: 3 months ago, no one wore a mask to go to the grocery store. It is now immoral to do so. I'm sorry but you kind of missed the point all together. What your describing is more a change in circumstance than a change in perception. 11 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said: You're diametrically opposed to a basic fact? It's not an issue of opinion. I'd say it's rather obvious I don't consider it to be a fact.? 11 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said: Slavery existed since the beginning of time. It existed long before Columbus came here, it existed long after he shuffled off this mortal coil. and I'd say it has always been wrong even when society deemed it to be acceptable. 11 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said: It does not illuminate truth of the past, it hides it and buries it under nonsense. what exactly does it hide? 11 minutes ago, Chef Jim said: No I took it to mean be mindful of your idols. Then I guess we just viewed it differently. 1 minute ago, Rob's House said: The implicit statement in all these ethnocentric declarations is "if I lived in that time I would be against it." The only thing you're actually communicating is that you don't understand moral psychology and you want to feel/signal moral superiority. The truth is you have no idea how you would have felt had you been raised in different times under different circumstances. Any suggestion to the contrary is hubris. No if I'd been born in raised in those times I'd be pretty likely to believe in all those things like average person of those times, it wouldn't make me right though.
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