The Poisoning of a Population: The Flint Water Crisis

[unbillievable]

Like, say, THE REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR!

 

Genius!

 

Check out the far left media (Salon, Vox, Huffington, Buzzfeed, Hilary, Yahoo...), they only mention the Governor.

[DC Tom]

you have that backwards

No, I don’t.

[....lybob]

No, I don’t.

yeah you do.

[DC Tom]

yeah you do.

 

They added ferric chloride to the water to precipitate out solid waste. That increased the chloridation of the water, and decreased the pH, neither of which they accounted for in treatment. The increased chloride and decreased pH ate away the scale protecting the pipes, allowing the lead and iron to leach in to the water.

 

That's factual. You can look it up. It wasn't the river pollutants that cause the problem, it was their incompetence in treating the water.

[B-Man]

We can listen to the usual 'leadership'

 

Flint Mayor: The Solution to our Crisis is Money

 

Obviously, what happened to the people of Flint, Michigan was a terrible tragedy and reflects failure of leadership up and down the line from the local to the state to the federal level. Naturally, the Democrats in charge of Flint have used the disaster to do the only thing they know to do, which is to ask for more taxpayer money – way more than is needed or required to actually mitigate the problem at hand.

 

More at the link: http://www.redstate.com/leon_h_wolf/2016/03/07/flint-mayor-solution-crisis-money/

 

 

 

or actually trying to address the problem

 

 

Lawmakers Can Prevent Future Flint Crises: Hint: It's not about more taxpayer money

 

As Flint officials handle the water crisis sickening town residents, state and local lawmakers should take a closer look at their own water supply and infrastructure viability. Thankfully, ALEC members have focused on this issue for years and can offer solutions that can be applied back home.

ALEC is the largest nonprofit, voluntary membership association of state legislators focused on solving state policy issues that follow the principles of limited government, free markets and federalism.

Supporters of big government policies will contend government is the solution, not the problem, to crises such as those facing Flint.

ALEC, however, approaches policy ideas with the simple belief that government can and should work with the private sector to make government services more efficient, effective and accountable to the people they serve.

 

The ALEC model policy, The Groundwater Protection Act, which ALEC members passed and the Board approved in 1995 and reapproved in 2013, calls for a partnership between state and federal agencies—including the Department of Agriculture and the Environmental Protection Agency—to ensure the best possible assessment of water purity. The responsibility for managing water safety then falls on the applicable state agency.

 

The ALEC Water/Wastewater Utility Public-Private Partnership Act, adopted by ALEC in 1999 and reapproved in 2013, gives local government agencies the flexibility they need to develop, repair and maintain water and wastewater utilities. According to research cited in the act, “The U.S. EPA estimates that nearly $300 billion dollars in infrastructure investments will be needed to ensure safe drinking water and clean waterways in our nation’s communities.”

 

In 2013, Dr. Bonner Cohen, senior fellow at the National Center for Public Policy Research, authored a research paper for ALEC, titled Lowering Costs in Water Infrastructure through Procurement Reform: A Strategy for State Governments. Cohen asserted that corroded pipes represent an imminent threat to public health.

 

With thousands of miles of corroded pipes already beyond their life expectancy, rehabilitation of the nation’s water networks is not an option, it is a necessity,” Cohen wrote in the report.

 

{snip}

 

Two years ago, ACCE members adopted The Open and Fair Competition Resolution for Municipal [or Local] Water and Wastewater Projects as a way to provide options to local policymakers whose governments had a habit of awarding no-contest contracts to companies for wastewater projects. As Russell wrote in his editorial, “The first goal of elected officials should be to operate in the most efficient way possible to save taxpayers money without compromising services.”

 

More at the link: http://www.redstate.com/diary/alecstates/2016/03/07/lawmakers-can-prevent-future-flint-crises/

 

 

 

 

"Open contracts" and "competitive bidding"............I know that the cronyism and union 'monopoly' that the Dems and GOP like would be threatened,

but lets fight for the openness we need.

 

.

Edited March 19, 2016 by B-Man

[....lybob]

 

They added ferric chloride to the water to precipitate out solid waste. That increased the chloridation of the water, and decreased the pH, neither of which they accounted for in treatment. (They used no corrosion treatment) The increased chloride and decreased pH ate away the scale protecting the pipes, allowing the lead and iron to leach in to the water.

 

That's factual. You can look it up. It wasn't the river pollutants (depends if you think road salt is a pollutant or not) that cause the problem, it was their incompetence in treating the water.

Tom, the ferric chloride may have made the situation worse by increasing the concentration of chloride ions and decreasing the pH even further but even without it the flint river had a low enough pH to cause pipes to lose their scale and leech lead and iron from pipes if corrosion inhibitors weren't used - no corrosion inhibitors were used- it's not like they were using corrosion inhibitors but didn't account for the ferric chloride.

[DC Tom]

Tom, the ferric chloride may have made the situation worse by increasing the concentration of chloride ions and decreasing the pH even further but even without it the flint river had a low enough pH to cause pipes to lose their scale and leech lead and iron from pipes if corrosion inhibitors weren't used - no corrosion inhibitors were used- it's not like they were using corrosion inhibitors but didn't account for the ferric chloride.

 

Yeah....no.

[....lybob]

 

Yeah....no.

 

Why is lead leaching into the water?

Flint made the switch to getting its water from the Flint River back in April 2014, as a money-saving exercise. Previously it got its water from Detroit, which cost the city millions of dollars. The issue is that the water from the Flint River is naturally quite corrosive; it contains relatively high levels of dissolved chloride ions (about 8 times more than the Detroit water) which can cause metals such as iron and lead to leach into the water. The high chloride levels are largely due to road salt which runs into the river.

The problem was exacerbated not long after the switch to the Flint River water supply. In the August following the switch, E. coli was found in the water, and to combat this extra chlorine was added as a disinfectant to remove it. However, this higher level of chlorine generated unsafe levels of trihalomethanes, compounds which are byproducts of the chlorine reacting with organic matter in the water. To combat this, ferric chloride was added.

Ferric chloride, FeCl₃, acts a coagulant, allowing for the removal of organic matter from the water. However, it also helps to increase the chloride concentration still further, making the water even more corrosive, and causing the concentration of lead in the water to increase. The corrosiveness of the Detroit water can be compared to that of the Flint River using their chloride to sulfate mass ratios (CSMR). For the Detroit water before the switch, this had a value of 0.45, indicating low corrosion. After the switch to Flint River water, this increased to 1.60, a value denoting very high corrosion.

 

Why isn’t this a problem in other cities where lead pipes are used?

This isn’t usually an issue because in areas where lead pipes are present, corrosion inhibitors can be used to prevent the lead getting into the water. A common corrosion inhibitor is orthophosphate; this is simply phosphoric acid, or salts of phosphoric acid. Orthophosphates form low-solubility complexes with the lead in the pipes, forming a layer inside the pipe and preventing lead getting into the water. These compounds were used in the Detroit water supply before the switch, even though the water had a comparatively low corrosiveness.

In Flint, orthophosphates weren’t used; nor were any other corrosion inhibitors. This meant that there was nothing preventing the lead getting into the water supply. It also led to the unpleasant discolouration present in the Flint River water coming out of residents’ taps, as iron in the pipes was also corroded by the water.

http://www.compoundchem.com/2016/01/25/flint-water/

[ExiledInIllinois]

Fe is NOT harmful? But super high concentrations is... I am not sure.

 

???

 

It only takes about .7ppm to stain an appliance or show up as clear water Fe

 

The Pb on the other hand... Oh my! Were there really Pb pipes in service or was it the Pb in the solder that was leaching?

Edited March 19, 2016 by ExiledInIllinois

[Nanker]

Lead pipes. There are thousands of miles of lead pipes in the water delivery systems across our nation. Most are in the cities.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Lead pipes. There are thousands of miles of lead pipes in the water delivery systems across our nation. Most are in the cities.

Pb in solder has been banned since the 1970's.

 

Now pipes, shouldn't we have been replacing them all these years? 40 years going on now, and the price of abatement keeps going up.

 

HVAC contract @ work cost 400 grand. We got local bids for under 100, even Union! One of the costs was 12k to test the boiler pipes for lead! All the contractor (from out of state down south, non-union Alabama) did was rag on the Fed and try to dodge doing certain work laid out in the contract! But they sure took the $$$$ once the checks were cut!

 

Costs keep going up!

[unbillievable]

Pb in solder has been banned since the 1970's.

 

Now pipes, shouldn't we have been replacing them all these years? 40 years going on now, and the price of abatement keeps going up.

 

HVAC contract @ work cost 400 grand. We got local bids for under 100, even Union! One of the costs was 12k to test the boiler pipes for lead! All the contractor (from out of state down south, non-union Alabama) did was rag on the Fed and try to dodge doing certain work laid out in the contract! But they sure took the $$$$ once the checks were cut!

 

Costs keep going up!

 

They started running ads last year about how it was our patriotic duty to pay more to rebuild the water system. It included comparing everyone who complained to spoiled children refusing to eat their vegetables. Imagine if the Oil companies ran ads like that... people would riot.

[TH3]

The government make terrible fiscal decisions often times to "preferred" sub contractors or groups who so happen to also be donors with no oversight or accountability.

Spending money is a necessity. Spending money wisely and being held accountable versus pissing it away on poor decisions is not the same.

I don't know who is to blame here because I havent looked very closely at it. My cynical gut reaction tells me there was government mismanagement and corruption somewhere along the way.

"I don't know......". but I will be sure to throw my ignorant prejudged opinion at it! Edited March 19, 2016 by baskin

[unbillievable]

Conservative solution: Stop everything and figure out what we're doing wrong first.

Liberal solution: Let's try that again, but bigger this time, and see what happens.

Moderate solution: I don't know what you guys are talking about, this water tastes fine to me.

Edited March 19, 2016 by unbillievable

[Nanker]

Pb in solder has been banned since the 1970's.

 

Now pipes, shouldn't we have been replacing them all these years? 40 years going on now, and the price of abatement keeps going up.

 

HVAC contract @ work cost 400 grand. We got local bids for under 100, even Union! One of the costs was 12k to test the boiler pipes for lead! All the contractor (from out of state down south, non-union Alabama) did was rag on the Fed and try to dodge doing certain work laid out in the contract! But they sure took the $$$$ once the checks were cut!

 

Costs keep going up!

I was wrong. There are millions of feet of lead pipe in our water systems.

The Detroit Free Press has a decent article on it.

[3rdnlng]

Pb in solder has been banned since the 1970's.

 

Now pipes, shouldn't we have been replacing them all these years? 40 years going on now, and the price of abatement keeps going up.

 

HVAC contract @ work cost 400 grand. We got local bids for under 100, even Union! One of the costs was 12k to test the boiler pipes for lead! All the contractor (from out of state down south, non-union Alabama) did was rag on the Fed and try to dodge doing certain work laid out in the contract! But they sure took the $$$$ once the checks were cut!

 

Costs keep going up!

Ah, those good ole non union boys from Bama just took the money and ran, eh? Your local union guys would probably just take the money and sit.

[Observer]

Conservative solution: Stop everything and figure out what we're doing wrong first. Ignore the science and pray for a solution.

Liberal solution: Let's try that again, but bigger this time, and see what happens. Have a march, get a lot of media together. Raise taxes. Build something big.

Moderate solution: I don't know what you guys are talking about, this water tastes fine to me. Democrats and Republicans are idiots. LEt's find a way to fix this together.

 

Revised.

[B-Man]

LOL............

 

 

WELL, TO BE FAIR, SNYDER’S A GOP OFFICEHOLDER, AND GINA MCCARTHY IS A DEMOCRATIC BUREAUCRAT:

 

 

Flint Water Crisis Hearings: Watch Rick Snyder Accept Blame, EPA Furiously Avoid It; Snyder says government screwed up, EPA administrator says she’s not sure.

 

 

Not too surprising

[TH3]

LOL............

 

 

WELL, TO BE FAIR, SNYDER’S A GOP OFFICEHOLDER, AND GINA MCCARTHY IS A DEMOCRATIC BUREAUCRAT:

 

 

Flint Water Crisis Hearings: Watch Rick Snyder Accept Blame, EPA Furiously Avoid It; Snyder says government screwed up, EPA administrator says she’s not sure.

 

 

Not too surprising

 

For a bunch of "smart guys" here - why none of you do any research fails me - but when you already have it all figgered out....

 

- Detroit overcharges for supply of water

- Flint goes to Flint river to save money

- Experts say you have to treat water

- GOP City manager and GOP Governor ignore experts - decide your own motivations

- Lead poising to kids

- Congress modified the safe drinking water act https://www.epa.gov/sdwato give the states more power and oversight to meet the guidelines set by the EPA

- Under this legislation (GOP pushed) - the EPA cannot "jump" in to rescue places like Flint - they have to defer to the states to get it done

- MI GOP feeds EPA crap information

- EPA can't intervene and fix problem

 

I ask you - where is the problem?

[GG]

 

For a bunch of "smart guys" here - why none of you do any research fails me - but when you already have it all figgered out....

 

- Detroit overcharges for supply of water

- Flint goes to Flint river to save money

- Experts say you have to treat water

- GOP City manager and GOP Governor ignore experts - decide your own motivations

- Lead poising to kids

- Congress modified the safe drinking water act https://www.epa.gov/sdwato give the states more power and oversight to meet the guidelines set by the EPA

- Under this legislation (GOP pushed) - the EPA cannot "jump" in to rescue places like Flint - they have to defer to the states to get it done

- MI GOP feeds EPA crap information

- EPA can't intervene and fix problem

 

I ask you - where is the problem?

So what you're saying is that FEMA shouldn't be blamed for the Katrina response?

Edited March 20, 2016 by GG