McCoy's nightclub fight and the ongoing investigation

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Why is that? I truly don't understand where you are going in this thread. Do you think:

All cops are liars?

This particular cop is a liar?

McCoy is a good person?

 

Why do you seem to be so supportive of McCoy? At best, his behavior is going to hurt the football team that you support so much. At worst, he and his mob intentionally injured other people in a drunken rage.

 

If you are not defending McCoy, I AM sorry for the mis-interpretation my old friend.

 

I'm not being addressed but I'll "go there" and lay out where I'm at. I think the whole thing is despicable, on all sides. No one looks good here, no one.

 

Yes, McCoy is at fault. Yes, McCoy participated in something ugly - a bar brawl with 3 friends that injured 2 people enough for hospital treatment. Yes, his behavior is going to hurt the Buffalo Bills because it's a sure bet he will get a suspension for conduct detrimental to the league, and it's likely the whole process will drag out all season.

 

Yes, I think McCoy has good about him. Along with the bar video, we see pictures of McCoy posing with fans before and after. Doesn't have to do that. Trying to be a good guy, make fans happy. McCoy runs a foundation that directly assists families dealing with Lou Gehrig's disease, ALS, in honor of his late grandmother who died of ALS. ALS is a hellpit of a disease for anyone, but especially for poor families because many of the things that make home care and quality of life possible require extensive home modifications and assistive technology that health insurance will not pay for. Anyone who tries to make their road lighter is all right by me. I'll go so far as to call him a good guy for trying.

 

Now we get into rampant opinion. Fights like that with similar injuries happen in bars across the country every night and are never prosecuted because it isn't considered worth the resources. Our late neighbor was in a bar fight where one or other side had similar injuries probably every week of his adult life. For a long time, I could identify myself to police officers in our municipality as "the house next to (names)" and they'd roll their eyes and be nicer to me as he was a known blot on a nice neighborhood, but he was seldom charged and less seldom prosecuted and only went to jail when he was on probation for something else. Seems likely that this fight is being prosecuted because the injured parties were off-duty police officers in a city with a strong police union, not because of any out-of-the-way severity in behavior or injuries.

 

So we have private individuals coming up with words like "mob" and "wilding". 4 people = Mob? Bar fight = Wilding? Seriously? Seriously?

 

And we have public officials like FOP president stressing how the officers have "very serious injuries" and Philly's Mayor mixing into it with words like "cowardly" and "pay the price". Your honor, if I google "Philadelphia Police Beat Man", I turn up 4 different incidents with cell videos of various numbers of Philadelphia police officers hitting, kicking, punching, and tasering a suspect who is on the ground. Can you comment on whether that's "unconscionable" or "cowardly", please, Your Honor, applying the same standard you used for McCoy? Mr FOP president is on record stating that one incident involving >10 officers beating an unarmed man who complied with orders to get off his bike and did not try to flee, "good policing". Nice.

 

My point is not to diss off police. They have a hard and dangerous and often thankless job. All the police officers I know personally are good people. The fact is, when humans, any humans, police officer or not, get their adrenaline up and testosterone is involved, it's hard to stop when someone is down. That's just wiring lost in the depths of human evolution. Probably all the humans who stopped easily got eaten when they turned their back on the stunned saber tooth tiger or something. So let's not get all "holier than thou", we're all skeletonized neurons swimming in the same primordial endocrine soup. Place us in a bar and it's alcohol-fueled endocrine soup, it burns hotter.

 

Since the case has become politicized and publicized, there are a lot of people with skin in the game to show how serious this is with serious charges. And it appears that serious charges depend upon serious injuries. The injuries detailed in the complaint don't seem to rise to that standard GIVEN that the officers felt able to drive to the hospital themselves and did not deem it necessary to call for assistance at the time.

 

The injury (of those described) with the biggest potential to be serious is the alleged orbital fracture. One doesn't have to believe that all police lie or that this particular policeman is a liar, to see that it's going to be important to people who can impact his career that his injury is SERIOUS Nothing so crude as "why don't you lie a bit and exaggerate your injuries" needs to be said. A straightforward factual statement about what sort of injuries are considered to merit aggravated assault charges, the pressure to ensure his injuries fit that standard is going to be there.

 

I think the whole situation on all sides is a mess, with political posturing, poor police behavior, and drunken idiocy stirred into one swell concoction plopped like a wet turd into the soupbowl of the Bills 2016 season. Monsieur Pegula, Bon Appetit!

I respectfully disagree. Because he is the mayor he has an obligation to act responsibly and respect the judicial process. His charged comments don't add anything positive to the situation other than to contaminate the environment, including the judicial process.

 

The mayor is acting like a politician and trying to capitalize on the situation. The best response he can make is to say "no comment" and let the process run its course. Voicing an opinion as a citizen is one thing but voicing an opinion as a mayor calls for measured restraint.

 

I agree with you wholeheartedly on these points and you said it so much more concisely than I

Edited February 13, 2016 by Hopeful

[Dorkington]

Good post, Hopeful.

[JohnC]

e

I disagree.

None of those people are paid to serve and protect the taxpayers. That is their sole duty. To uphold the law.

only in that they are potentially skirting the system for their own self interest.

Lawyers are officers of the court regardless if they are involved in criminal cases or not. Doctors also take an oath to serve so it is also related to public trust.

 

There are generalizing negative comments regarding the police that are being associated to the off duty police involved in the McCoy case. Yet I haven't heard anything specific detailing what they did wrong other than be victims.

 

 

That is their sole duty. To uphold the law.

 

The police are involved in a lot of activities that serve the public that go beyond upholding the law. Their primary responsibility is upholding the law but it is far from being their sole duty.

[3rdand12]

Lawyers are officers of the court regardless if they are involved in criminal cases or not. Doctors also take an oath to serve so it is also related to public trust.

 

There are generalizing negative comments regarding the police that are being associated to the off duty police involved in the McCoy case. Yet I haven't heard anything specific detailing what they did wrong other than be victims.

 

 

 

 

The police are involved in a lot of activities that serve the public that go beyond upholding the law. Their primary responsibility is upholding the law but it is far from being their sole duty.

To the first response. Sure, drs have a code of behaviour and a form of ethics.

None of know what happened to start the ruckus.

 

On the second

I am not sure what you mean.

Police and government ( lets not go there) are paid by you and i whether we choose to or not.

Police are required going in, to represent the law. 24/7

There is no question of that

Edited February 13, 2016 by 3rdand12

[Hapless Bills Fan]

You can say the same thing about doctors. You can say the same thing about lawyers. You can say the same thing about plumbers. You can say the same thing about businessmen. You can say the same thing about Wall Street workers. You can say the same thing about politicians. etc. etc.

 

Absolutely you can! What's your point? It's a police officer we're talking about in this specific case. The fact that he's a police officer is really tangential to the situation where the Mayor has publically put political skin in the game, thus pressuring the DA to apply serious charges, which apparently depend upon the complainant having serious injuries. He's a human being.

 

Do I think the same pressure to exaggerate injuries or exaggerate the patient's injuries would be there if the complainant were a plumber or it was a physician's testimony at stake? Absolutely I do, provided the plumber and/or doctor were 1) employed by the city, 2) had few other employment options in their profession but to continue to work for the city, and 3) their employment was such that "Making the Mayor Look Bad" would have a dampening effect on their career trajectory.

 

I thought you meant something similar in your post commenting about the irresponsibility of the Mayor's comments and its potential to contaminate the judicial process.

[Mr. WEO]

God you keep harping over this

 

Do you REALLY think this is what is in the best interests of the team? To cut a talented running back on a team where the scheme is to stress the run?

 

 

No, they would be cutting a convicted felon, which would be in the best interest of the team.

 

Talented RBs are being minted every year in the NCAA/NFL. In the games that he played in, this one cracked 100 yards 3 times this year. Had a few TDs--completely replaceable. In fact, we may have drafted a better RB last year.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Good point.

 

The entire situation is rapidly starting to annoy me.

 

What took you so long?

[Doc]

No, they would be cutting a convicted felon, which would be in the best interest of the team.

 

Talented RBs are being minted every year in the NCAA/NFL. In the games that he played in, this one cracked 100 yards 3 times this year. Had a few TDs--completely replaceable. In fact, we may have drafted a better RB last year.

 

Convicted felon? Did I miss the trial? And even if he is convicted of a felony, which I doubt he will be, why would cutting him be in the best interest of the team? He won't see jail time and will at most miss 6 games this year because of suspension.

 

And as for Karlos, he looked good but he showed that he can't stay healthy and isn't a featured RB.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

No, they would be cutting a convicted felon, which would be in the best interest of the team.

 

Not to interject any facts into your opinion, but McCoy is not a convicted felon at this point, may or may not ever become a convicted felon, and the process of deciding that is likely to drag out, maybe for a couple of years.

[YoloinOhio]

 

Convicted felon? Did I miss the trial? And even if he is convicted of a felony, which I doubt he will be, why would cutting him be in the best interest of the team? He won't see jail time and will at most miss 6 games this year because of suspension.

 

And as for Karlos, he looked good but he showed that he can't stay healthy and isn't a featured RB.

maybe because if we ever have to play in London again or Mexico, he can't get a passport? Haha. I don't think Rex will use that to determine anything. Mike Vick got signed by Andy Reid. Belichick didn't cut (or even suspend) his felon Dennard. If they want out of the contract they will use it as a reason. If they don't and just want him on the field ASAP, they will look the other way. IMO

[JohnC]

 

I'm not being addressed but I'll "go there" and lay out where I'm at. I think the whole thing is despicable, on all sides. No one looks good here, no one.

 

Yes, McCoy is at fault. Yes, McCoy participated in something ugly - a bar brawl with 3 friends that injured 2 people enough for hospital treatment. Yes, his behavior is going to hurt the Buffalo Bills because it's a sure bet he will get a suspension for conduct detrimental to the league, and it's likely the whole process will drag out all season.

 

Yes, I think McCoy has good about him. Along with the bar video, we see pictures of McCoy posing with fans before and after. Doesn't have to do that. Trying to be a good guy, make fans happy. McCoy runs a foundation that directly assists families dealing with Lou Gehrig's disease, ALS, in honor of his late grandmother who died of ALS. ALS is a hellpit of a disease for anyone, but especially for poor families because many of the things that make home care and quality of life possible require extensive home modifications and assistive technology that health insurance will not pay for. Anyone who tries to make their road lighter is all right by me. I'll go so far as to call him a good guy for trying.

 

Now we get into rampant opinion. Fights like that with similar injuries happen in bars across the country every night and are never prosecuted because it isn't considered worth the resources. Our late neighbor was in a bar fight where one or other side had similar injuries probably every week of his adult life. For a long time, I could identify myself to police officers in our municipality as "the house next to (names)" and they'd roll their eyes and be nicer to me as he was a known blot on a nice neighborhood, but he was seldom charged and less seldom prosecuted and only went to jail when he was on probation for something else. Seems likely that this fight is being prosecuted because the injured parties were off-duty police officers in a city with a strong police union, not because of any out-of-the-way severity in behavior or injuries.

 

So we have private individuals coming up with words like "mob" and "wilding". 4 people = Mob? Bar fight = Wilding? Seriously? Seriously?

 

And we have public officials like FOP president stressing how the officers have "very serious injuries" and Philly's Mayor mixing into it with words like "cowardly" and "pay the price". Your honor, if I google "Philadelphia Police Beat Man", I turn up 4 different incidents with cell videos of various numbers of Philadelphia police officers hitting, kicking, punching, and tasering a suspect who is on the ground. Can you comment on whether that's "unconscionable" or "cowardly", please, Your Honor, applying the same standard you used for McCoy? Mr FOP president is on record stating that one incident involving >10 officers beating an unarmed man who complied with orders to get off his bike and did not try to flee, "good policing". Nice.

 

My point is not to diss off police. They have a hard and dangerous and often thankless job. All the police officers I know personally are good people. The fact is, when humans, any humans, police officer or not, get their adrenaline up and testosterone is involved, it's hard to stop when someone is down. That's just wiring lost in the depths of human evolution. Probably all the humans who stopped easily got eaten when they turned their back on the stunned saber tooth tiger or something. So let's not get all "holier than thou", we're all skeletonized neurons swimming in the same primordial endocrine soup. Place us in a bar and it's alcohol-fueled endocrine soup, it burns hotter.

 

Since the case has become politicized and publicized, there are a lot of people with skin in the game to show how serious this is with serious charges. And it appears that serious charges depend upon serious injuries. The injuries detailed in the complaint don't seem to rise to that standard GIVEN that the officers felt able to drive to the hospital themselves and did not deem it necessary to call for assistance at the time.

 

The injury (of those described) with the biggest potential to be serious is the alleged orbital fracture. One doesn't have to believe that all police lie or that this particular policeman is a liar, to see that it's going to be important to people who can impact his career that his injury is SERIOUS Nothing so crude as "why don't you lie a bit and exaggerate your injuries" needs to be said. A straightforward factual statement about what sort of injuries are considered to merit aggravated assault charges, the pressure to ensure his injuries fit that standard is going to be there.

 

I think the whole situation on all sides is a mess, with political posturing, poor police behavior, and drunken idiocy stirred into one swell concoction plopped like a wet turd into the soupbowl of the Bills 2016 season. Monsieur Pegula, Bon Appetit!

 

I agree with you wholeheartedly on these points and you said it so much more concisely than I

For the sake of argument let's put aside the off duty police involvement in this case that indisputably brought heightened and frenzied attention to this incident. If Manziel or Newton or Brady or Peyton would have been involved in such an incident this case would also be receiving extraordinary coverage. The Ray Rice certainly received coverage that rose to the level of being sensational.

McCoy is a high profile individual whether he likes it or not. He can't even tip servers without being publicly judged. His high public profile is related to the profession he chose. He can't accept the benefits of wealth and fame and then decry the aspects of his professions that he does not find appealing. It goes with the territory whether he likes it or not.

Yes, the police being involved in the club elevated the coverage and the ramifications. But what magnified this saga is that one of the primary protagonists is a high profile former hometown player. McCoy was too cavalier and lacked self-awareness of who he was with respect to his public behavior.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

 

For the sake of argument let's put aside the off duty police involvement in this case that indisputably brought heightened and frenzied attention to this incident. If Manziel or Newton or Brady or Peyton would have been involved in such an incident this case would also be receiving extraordinary coverage. The Ray Rice certainly received coverage that rose to the level of being sensational.

 

McCoy is a high profile individual whether he likes it or not. He can't even tip servers without being publicly judged. His high public profile is related to the profession he chose. He can't accept the benefits of wealth and fame and then decry the aspects of his professions that he does not find appealing. It goes with the territory whether he likes it or not.

 

Yes, the police being involved in the club elevated the coverage and the ramifications. But what magnified this saga is that one of the primary protagonists is a high profile former hometown player. McCoy was too cavalier and lacked self-awareness of who he was with respect to his public behavior.

 

 

Just a point here John that the quotation makes it look as though these are my words, and they are yours. I found the quoting feature rather trickier to get right after the latest board upgrades. I saw you posted twice so you might want to delete this one.

 

I generally agree - I do think that the case is likely to be prosecuted because police were involved, but for the furor of publicity and the mayor weighing in, we can thank McCoy's celebrity. I think someone called him a "knucklehead", which may be a shorthand way of saying "McCoy lacks self-awareness of who he was with respect to his public behavior"

Edited February 13, 2016 by Hopeful

[John from Riverside]

 

A freaking beatdown.

Sometimes bar fights do turn into beat downs

[JohnC]

 

Absolutely you can! What's your point? It's a police officer we're talking about in this specific case. The fact that he's a police officer is really tangential to the situation where the Mayor has publically put political skin in the game, thus pressuring the DA to apply serious charges, which apparently depend upon the complainant having serious injuries. He's a human being.

 

Do I think the same pressure to exaggerate injuries or exaggerate the patient's injuries would be there if the complainant were a plumber or it was a physician's testimony at stake? Absolutely I do, provided the plumber and/or doctor were 1) employed by the city, 2) had few other employment options in their profession but to continue to work for the city, and 3) their employment was such that "Making the Mayor Look Bad" would have a dampening effect on their career trajectory.

 

I thought you meant something similar in your post commenting about the irresponsibility of the Mayor's comments and its potential to contaminate the judicial process.

I am without any equivocation criticizing the Mayor on his comments and conduct.

 

As far as the issue of how badly injured the police are the evidence will determine to what scale they actually are. I don't know for a fact how injured they are, none of us commenting on this board do. You seem to presume that they are being exaggerated. My response is I don't know for sure. However, at this point (opinion) I do believe they meet the standard of aggravated assault.

 

What is going to determine their level of injuries are the medical reports. The police can make claims but it has to be supported by what the doctors say. On this issue the doctors will be the authoritative voice.If the presumptive defendants' lawyers challenge the medical reports they will do so with their own medical experts.

 

Just a point here John that the quotation makes it look as though these are my words, and they are yours. I found the quoting feature rather trickier to get right after the latest board upgrades. I saw you posted twice so you might want to delete this one.

 

I generally agree - I do think that the case is likely to be prosecuted because police were involved, but for the furor of publicity and the mayor weighing in, we can thank McCoy's celebrity. I think someone called him a "knucklehead", which may be a shorthand way of saying "McCoy lacks self-awareness of who he was with respect to his public behavior"

I screwed the quote function so bad that I am confusing myself. I apologize for my the confusion brought on by my confusion.

[Maury Ballstein]

No, they would be cutting a convicted felon, which would be in the best interest of the team.

 

Talented RBs are being minted every year in the NCAA/NFL. In the games that he played in, this one cracked 100 yards 3 times this year. Had a few TDs--completely replaceable. In fact, we may have drafted a better RB last year.

What is going overboard for 1000? Alex.

 

Another round of lol's from me from the cut shady crowd. No ones ever gotten into trouble in their 20's on a Saturday night partying w friends. Love the overdone outrage. "Think of the kids!!!!"

Edited February 13, 2016 by Ryan L Billz

[Mr. WEO]

Felony conviction could allow bills to terminate his contract without paying him anything further, and reclaim part of his bonus. I read most NFL contracts have language addressing this.

 

 

God you keep harping over this

 

Do you REALLY think this is what is in the best interests of the team? To cut a talented running back on a team where the scheme is to stress the run?

 

You both are missing something..

 

 

 

 

Convicted felon? Did I miss the trial? And even if he is convicted of a felony, which I doubt he will be, why would cutting him be in the best interest of the team? He won't see jail time and will at most miss 6 games this year because of suspension.

 

And as for Karlos, he looked good but he showed that he can't stay healthy and isn't a featured RB.

 

 

 

Not to interject any facts into your opinion, but McCoy is not a convicted felon at this point, may or may not ever become a convicted felon, and the process of deciding that is likely to drag out, maybe for a couple of years.

 

I was simply commenting on Hemet's response to truth be told's post.

 

But carry on...

Edited February 13, 2016 by Mr. WEO

[Doc]

I was simply commenting on Hemet's response to truth be told's post.

 

But carry on...

 

Do you believe he'll be convicted of a felony?. And again, even if he is, and assuming he doesn't do jail time, why would cutting him be a good idea when he's at-most looking at missing 6 games?

 

Karlos is a nice complementary RB. I agree you can get those easily in the draft. But he's not a franchise RB.

[John from Riverside]

 

Do you believe he'll be convicted of a felony?. And again, even if he is, and assuming he doesn't do jail time, why would cutting him be a good idea when he's at-most looking at missing 6 games?

 

Karlos is a nice complementary RB. I agree you can get those easily in the draft. But he's not a franchise RB.

If it was not for the concussions I would be completely disagreeing with you on Karlos...the kid seems to be able to do everything and at a high level.....but the bell has tolled too many times for Karlos to be the feature back.

 

I dont like the thought of drafting a rb high in a year where defensive front 7 appear to be the strength....the reason why we even missed the playoffs last year was because of our defense (and before the hang RR crowd jump in YES it is because he couldnt coach the talent we had in the stable) but RR is here....Mario is leaving.....they have to draft players that fit wat RR wants to do on D now.

 

This is gonna be a criitical defensive draft for the Buffalo Bills.....we cant be drafting running backs when we had a more then solid stable of them going into the offseason.

[Doc]

If it was not for the concussions I would be completely disagreeing with you on Karlos...the kid seems to be able to do everything and at a high level.....but the bell has tolled too many times for Karlos to be the feature back.

 

I dont like the thought of drafting a rb high in a year where defensive front 7 appear to be the strength....the reason why we even missed the playoffs last year was because of our defense (and before the hang RR crowd jump in YES it is because he couldnt coach the talent we had in the stable) but RR is here....Mario is leaving.....they have to draft players that fit wat RR wants to do on D now.

 

This is gonna be a criitical defensive draft for the Buffalo Bills.....we cant be drafting running backs when we had a more then solid stable of them going into the offseason.

 

The concussions are bad enough. But when called upon to be the featured back, he stumbled. Again I think he's strictly a complementary RB.

[Mr. WEO]

What is going overboard for 1000? Alex.

 

Another round of lol's from me from the cut shady crowd. No ones ever gotten into trouble in their 20's on a Saturday night partying w friends. Love the overdone outrage. "Think of the kids!!!!"

 

While you're lol'ing, you can read my post above. It will help you..

 

 

Do you believe he'll be convicted of a felony?. And again, even if he is, and assuming he doesn't do jail time, why would cutting him be a good idea when he's at-most looking at missing 6 games?

 

Karlos is a nice complementary RB. I agree you can get those easily in the draft. But he's not a franchise RB.

 

I don't think he will get convicted of a felony. If he was, I bet the Pegulas would have no problem cutting him. He's a good RB, for sure, but his performance wasn't vital last year--not as a "franchise RB". No one knows yet if Carlos is that guy.

 

Labeling Karlos as a guy who can't stay healthy is a stretch given McCoy only played 12 games this season.