McCoy's nightclub fight and the ongoing investigation

[boater]

- Intoxicated

- Wearing sidearms while intoxicated which is a big no no

- Instigated the whole damn thing

- Were the first to use physical force and not in the line of duty

Intoxicated? Have you seen the lab results?

 

Sidearm while intox, a bad idea. But Philly Police regulations only come into play if they conducted "a police action" while off duty (link following).

 

Instigated? We'll see. And that may not be important. Once the alleged instigator is on the ground getting a bashed skull, the legal tides turn.

 

The first to use force seems irrelevant here, it's the first to use excessive force

 

Here is the Philly Off Duty conduct policy. It may not pertain to this case, There are no reports they pulled out badges and/or guns. As far as I can tell, the regs are mum on sobriety and carrying a weapon, plain clothes, off duty.

[Maury Ballstein]

If the cops started this as some stories state, I don't want Shady missing 1 play.

 

The second you put your hands on me or a friends neck is the second the punches start flying.

 

The tmz, Twitter, outraged by everything generation of lady parts don't accept such things.

 

Sometimes a man has to fight.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Ryan L Billz

[nucci]

Bottom line is let's wait and see where it all ends up. We can go back and forth endlessly but we are speculating as to how the PD and league will reach closer on the incident. Whaley and company hitched a pretty hefty wagon onto Shady's back so let's hope things end in our favor. As much as I'd like them to make a drastic move to eliminate the problem it's not realistic considering our current situation. I am sure that frustrates some folks at OBD as much as if does me.

This contradicts your post on "bank on it"

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Intoxicated? Have you seen the lab results?

Here is the Philly Off Duty conduct policy. It may not pertain to this case, There are no reports they pulled out badges and/or guns. As far as I can tell, the regs are mum on sobriety and carrying a weapon, plain clothes, off duty.

 

Actually, there are such reports. They cite "witnesses". Whether or not said witnesses are forthcoming and credible remains to be seen.

 

You're correct that even if someone else instigates the fight, there's the question of whether the response used excessive force. I would like to hear from someone who knows what they're talking about here (paging: GKG? Mickey?) but I believe PA law offers more latitude on the force used if someone could reasonably feel the need to defend themselves (or a friend?).

 

(a) Use of force justifiable for protection of the person.–The use of force upon or toward another person is justifiable when the actor believes that such force is immediately necessary for the purpose of protecting himself against the use of unlawful force by such other person on the present occasion.

The General Assembly finds that:

(1) It is proper for law-abiding people to protect

themselves, their families and others from intruders and

attackers without fear of prosecution or civil action for

acting in defense of themselves and others.

 

IOW, my understanding is the law would look differently on

1) a case where the complainant tried to repossess a bottle and limited his conduct to verbal posturing and maybe a little shoving or jostling and in response was knocked down and punched and kicked by a group (no need for self-defense, excessive force, simple assault or aggravated assault depending on intent/severity of injuries)

2) a case where the complainant didn't limit himself to threats or shoving, but actually charged at a smaller, lighter man "got him by the neck and body slammed him to the ground" Loss of bloodflow to the brain and obstruction of breathing are two of the "true emergencies" medically and a jury of "reasonable peers" would likely want their friends to come to their defense if they were being pinned on the ground by a bigger guy with his hands on their neck. (This would be bolstered if Porter actually has some evidence of bruising in the neck area or other injuries from allegedly being thrown to the ground and even further if he sought medical treatment for same). And yeah, when the need for defense stopped, the kicking and punching should have stopped, but I think people understand that once your adrenaline gets up, it can be hard to perceive when the threat has stopped especially if the complainant showed evidence that it's not over from his POV:

"A witness outside the club saw the bouncers throw Butler hard to the ground. Uniformed cops were standing within 15 feet but didn't do anything. Butler was still protesting that he wanted to go after the guy with the dreads. McCoy came outside and told Sgt. Ayres to come get his man and take him away."

If there really is a witness willing to state that after being pulled out of the bottom of the pile and bum's rushed outside by the bouncers, Butler was still mouthing off about wanting to go after Porter (the guy with the dreads), I think (again, would like to hear from people who know what they're talking about, legally) it's hard to make a clear argument the need for self-defense or defense of a friend stopped when Butler hit the floor inside the club.

3) In addition, if it's true that a credible witness saw Butler thrown to the ground by club security, it will be hard to argue that all his injuries were caused by McCoy's party, which makes it harder to argue for aggravated assault based on severity of injuries.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Hopeful

[PromoTheRobot]

 

They need their own Zika/Ebola/Bird Flu story to hit so the world will move on and this can all just quietly go away.

Actually this is pretty much ignored everywhere else.

[Chandler#81]

This contradicts your post on "bank on it"

These newbs with less than 130 posts.. JEEBUS! Have we ever had a sadder 'rookie class' here?

 

Millennials?

[boater]

 

Actually, there are such reports. They cite "witnesses". Whether or not said witnesses are forthcoming and credible remains to be seen.

...

Thanks for the link. If most or all of that is true, it seems like a bunch of drunks, and he said she said situation. In which case, if I were the DA, I wouldn't press charges more than a misdemeanor.

 

(misdemeanors for various drunks are warranted, but not if it takes ADA's away from more serious crimes)

 

Regardless, the one dude with the cracked skull probably has pretty good civil case.

 

I'm going to change my policy of "nothing good happens after midnight" to "nothing good happens after 10 PM."

[The Jokeman]

It will be interesting to see how public perception goes as more of the facts come out one way or the other

 

I have this feeling that the Phili PD officials really looked before they leaped and now are pushing the DA for quick action to wipe what the cops SHOULDNT have been doing under the rug.

 

If certain accounts are true

 

- Intoxicated

- Wearing sidearms while intoxicated which is a big no no

- Instigated the whole damn thing

- Were the first to use physical force and not in the line of duty

 

I STILL think Shady gets a suspension from the league....but I am anticipating something much smaller then some here which will be even further reduced when the players union gets involved....not to mention that ANY of this would take affect this next season.

 

My own personal opinion of Shady....I think he is exceptional football player but you can see he is a Diva....I noticed it in that video when they were all bowling as a team and Boobie was trying to talk to him.

 

But I dont need the players of my team to be boy scouts...football is a tough sport for tough people.......Shady isnt the guy I would want dating my sister......but I like him just fine with the ball in his hands on my football team.

It's going to come down if Shady pleads guilty for lesser charges or is found guilty in court as any form of it and he's bound to get slapped by the league.

[26CornerBlitz]

Rapoport: Bills are planning for McCoy missing games (1:06)

NFL Media Insider Ian Rapoport shares the latest on the investigation involving LeSean McCoy and what it means for the Buffalo Bills.

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Thanks for the link. If most or all of that is true, it seems like a bunch of drunks, and he said she said situation. In which case, if I were the DA, I wouldn't press charges more than a misdemeanor.

(misdemeanors for various drunks are warranted, but not if it takes ADA's away from more serious crimes)

Regardless, the one dude with the cracked skull probably has pretty good civil case.

I'm going to change my policy of "nothing good happens after midnight" to "nothing good happens after 10 PM."

 

The guy with the cracked skull, if it was cracked by a swung bottle and he was just trying to break up the fight, may have a pretty good criminal complaint. But unless it was established they were acting as a group in a way where bottle-swinging was somehow expected or reasonably predictable by all, it may be just against the guy who swung the bottle.

 

I think you can keep your policy or even extend it to 2 am LOL!

[Heitz]

With each loss they have tightened up the process and rewritten the personal conduct agreement. Where exactly Shady's incident falls on the scale of discipline is a grey area but you can bank on it being pushed towards the heavier side of the scale.

 

[LB3]

 

:lol:

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Not only that.....if one of these off duty po's actually STARTED the fight.....while drunk......well...what are THEIR consequencies. Not even supposed to have a gun in that place.

 

I think McNesby is a dinosaur, yearning for the days when anyone who laid a finger on a cop on or off duty could be thrown in a cell, roughed up, and left in a bloody heap and no one would dare to question it (or record the event on cell phone cameras) or for that matter where a large number of cops who beat a guy (warning: this is ugly) got a free pass and a lot of leeway from the courts (McNesby was quoted in the press calling the incident in the linked video above "Good Policing").

 

If there really are credible witnesses willing to swear to about half of what was printed in this story yet McNesby keeps at it much longer and louder, McCoy may just ask his attorney to round up a pack of high-priced civil lawyers and turn them loose to go after McNesby for defamation or whatever else they can figure out. They don't have to win the suit or even take it to trial, they just have to file the suit and make public statements about it. It costs money, and I think Shady likes his money and wants to spend it on stuff he enjoys, but he also makes $344k per game. If there aren't criminal charges and McNesby seems possible to cost McCoy game checks in suspensions from the Court of Public Opinion, or the cops file civil suits naming McCoy, expect counter-suits or just suits filed as a form of Public Opinion "return fire". The NFLPA would have a field day appealing any suspension Sir Roger hands out in that circumstance.

[26CornerBlitz]

 

I think McNesby is a dinosaur, yearning for the days when anyone who laid a finger on a cop on or off duty could be thrown in a cell, roughed up, and left in a bloody heap and no one would dare to question it (or record the event on cell phone cameras) or for that matter where a large number of cops who beat a guy (warning: this is ugly) got a free pass and a lot of leeway from the courts (McNesby was quoted in the press calling the incident in the linked video above "Good Policing").

 

If there really are credible witnesses willing to swear to about half of what was printed in this story yet McNesby keeps at it much longer and louder, McCoy may just ask his attorney to round up a pack of high-priced civil lawyers and turn them loose to go after McNesby for defamation or whatever else they can figure out. They don't have to win the suit or even take it to trial, they just have to file the suit and make public statements about it. It costs money, and I think Shady likes his money and wants to spend it on stuff he enjoys, but he also makes $344k per game. If there aren't criminal charges and McNesby seems possible to cost McCoy game checks in suspensions from the Court of Public Opinion, or the cops file civil suits naming McCoy, expect counter-suits or just suits filed as a form of Public Opinion "return fire". The NFLPA would have a field day appealing any suspension Sir Roger hands out in that circumstance.

 

I know quite a few Philly Cops. Let's just say there are plenty that have a little dirt on them.

[Doc]

Who said?

 

Shady did. Said he came to the aid of his friend who was being choked by the ODPO on the ground.

 

The guy with the cracked skull, if it was cracked by a swung bottle and he was just trying to break up the fight, may have a pretty good criminal complaint. But unless it was established they were acting as a group in a way where bottle-swinging was somehow expected or reasonably predictable by all, it may be just against the guy who swung the bottle.

 

I think you can keep your policy or even extend it to 2 am LOL!

 

It would be an incredible stretch to pin the bottle-swinger's actions on Shady. But it's no surprise they're going to try, seeing as he has the most money.

[The Big Cat]

I'm curious why people think the NFL will jump to a hasty punishment just because they were off duty cops. The rationale there seems to be that the NFL will be pressured by public opinion...because they're cops?

 

Has there been a moment in time since Rodney King where public opinion of cops was lower? Where will this groundswell of public outcry come from?

 

This logic doesn't make sense to me.

[thebandit27]

I'm curious why people think the NFL will jump to a hasty punishment just because they were off duty cops. The rationale there seems to be that the NFL will be pressured by public opinion...because they're cops?

 

Has there been a moment in time since Rodney King where public opinion of cops was lower? Where will this groundswell of public outcry come from?

 

This logic doesn't make sense to me.

 

I don't think it has anything to do with them being cops (not that I think you were referring to me, I'm merely opining on the topic). I think it has everything to do with him being on video, running into a fight to throw a punch.

[jimmy10]

Not only that.....if one of these off duty po's actually STARTED the fight.....while drunk......well...what are THEIR consequencies. Not even supposed to have a gun in that place.

Well, why don't they just check the security camera footage? Ooh, that's right, they were malfunctioning. Huh. Too bad.

[FireChan]

I'm curious why people think the NFL will jump to a hasty punishment just because they were off duty cops. The rationale there seems to be that the NFL will be pressured by public opinion...because they're cops?

 

Has there been a moment in time since Rodney King where public opinion of cops was lower? Where will this groundswell of public outcry come from?

 

This logic doesn't make sense to me.

It's not supposed to.

 

The NFL may think that there is pressure. The NFL is stupid.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

It appears to be a shopping bag (resusable) from target; I have one at home.

 

Begs the question - why is Shady carrying a red "man purse" (or reuseable shipping bag) out of a meeting with the DA and his attorney, which apparently he initiated?

Are there items he carried into the meeting to show to the DA? Or is he just bringing the bag along to put over his head in case he's mobbed by media on the way out?