Quiet Indictment of Lee/Roman - Trent Dilfer

[GG]

I think they're fair criticisms of the offense this year, as it was very limited. Yet it still exceeded expectations. I think what Dilfer laid out is the target to work on for the 2016 season.

[hondo in seattle]

It seems to me that Dilfer is talking about two different things. On the one hand, there is the offensive scheme; is it effective? Does it produce? Can it succeed in this league?

 

On the other hand is the concept of teaching; are the coaches good teachers? Do they instill good habits? Do they effectively communicate the scheme to the players?

 

I see these as two completely separate things, but he is implying that they are somehow the same. I'm not sure if Roman and friends are good at both, but it sure seemed to my untrained eye that he was doing a pretty decent job of both.

 

I can see how some (such as dave, and I guess Dilfer) believe the scheme will not produce high-level success in this league, but I think that remains to be seen.

 

I didn't get that Dilfer thought they were the same. I got that he thought the Bills were poor at both.

 

I wish Dilfer was more specific. As noted, Roman's been criticized for his passing game before. But I thought TT was very efficient for a de facto rookie - high completion percentage, few turnovers, etc. What evidence of poor coaching does Dilfer actually see?

Edited February 6, 2016 by hondo in seattle

[GunnerBill]

Roman is the best run game coordinator in the NFL - that is part of the reason the Bills were able to plug in a street free agent halfway through the season and not have the run game miss a beat. The issue has always been that he is a limited passing game coordinator. His passing game is play action and deep shots. He has never traditionally been good at scheming up those chain moving pass plays - particularly in the middle of the field on 3rd and 5,6,7 when teams are not going to bite on the play action.

[John from Riverside]

 

Taylor is a 5th year player. He's not the same QB he was at Virginia Tech so he's developed. He didn't get magically better all by himself, he's been coached up to become who he is. It's become a cute little thing to call him "basically a rookie" but he's really not. This is a long term work-in-progress. 2015 was the fruition of the prior 4 years in Baltimore.

 

Bad habits like his feet and eyes not being in sync is something that either natural (so he's not taken the coaching) or they are learned (he's been taught them). It didn't magically appear in Buffalo if you watch him play for the Ravens. That's why it's a shot at Cameron/Kubiak. They are the guys that actually developed him and either taught him bad habits or didn't coach him out of them.

 

Roman's passing game isn't my favourite thing in the world but you can only work with what you have. At some point, you have to wonder if the player is deficient (in which case, stop giving him plays that show the weakness). It's the coaching flaw that got SF with Kaepernick, putting too much on his plate and then ploughing through with blissful ignorance when it didn't work. I hope it's not going to be a case of history repeating itself.

Its not a "cute little thing"

 

Tyrod is simply in a unique situation.

 

He is not a rookie.....but you can only learn so much and then have to go onto the field as a starter and have opposing defensive coordinators game plan you week in and week out. THAT is where Tyrod this past year was inexperienced "like a rookie" and it is a big deal.

 

He was raw project coming out of college and we were lucky enough to have a talented player sit behind a franchise starter for years.....working on his game which everyone said he was gonna need when he was drafted.

 

That is why I always use the term "experienced rookie starter" I think that is accurate.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

 

I didn't get that Dilfer thought they were the same. I got that he thought the Bills were poor at both.

 

I wish Dilfer was more specific. As noted, Roman's been criticized for his passing game before. But I thought TT was very efficient for a de facto rookie - high completion percentage, few turnovers, etc. What evidence of poor coaching does Dilfer actually see?

I hear you. Clearly Roman is adept at helping quarterbacks play pretty well...kap, Alex Smith, now our Tyrod. A question that's been floating around in my head is can he get a qb to elite. If Aaron Rodgers spends all those years under Roman instead of in Green bay does he ever become league MVP.

 

I've heard Keith Hernandez say that for a guy to become a star he sometimes needs his coach to treat him like a star. I don't know the specifics of developing a qb so, like you, I really wish dilfer had elaborated.

Edited February 6, 2016 by Aaron

[eball]

I don't know why anyone would get riled up over what Dilfer said. I think it's pretty obvious the Bills were not trying to give the QB too much to do this year. The key is seeing how the offense (passing game) progresses now that they've seen what Tyrod can do -- we might have gotten a glimpse in the last game when the Tyrod/Sammy connection was clicking.

[BuffaloBill]

I think lost in all of this is TT is a one-year starter in a system and whith players that are new to him. I am not defending him in this comment. Rather, the point is that he probably does need more time.

[CommonCents]

Trent Dilfer is not the only one to speak out against Roman's schemes and teaching prowess. Look up Greg Bedard, he works for SI. He broke down both Bills game vs. the Patriots and he really thrashed on the scheme in great depth. He specifically states multiple times that Roman runs a 3rd grade passing attack and it is by far the simplest one in the league.

[hondo in seattle]

Trent Dilfer is not the only one to speak out against Roman's schemes and teaching prowess. Look up Greg Bedard, he works for SI. He broke down both Bills game vs. the Patriots and he really thrashed on the scheme in great depth. He specifically states multiple times that Roman runs a 3rd grade passing attack and it is by far the simplest one in the league.

 

Didn't Bedard use to work for the Boston Globe before SI? Isn't he a Pats fan? Does he actually know anything more about football than the Bills fans here?

 

I take Dilfer seriously because he's a bright guy who has played in the NFL. This doesn't mean Dilfer's right, but - in my mind - it does mean he's worth listening to.

 

If you find the link to Bedard's article, I'd love to see it.

[White Linen]

i think this is all a bunch of hog wash. I like Dilfer and find him one of the easier personalities to listen to - but lets be clear, he was one awful QB. Let's not act like he has a special sense to see things. These modern coaches aren't teachers because they don't have time/longevity. For example Greg Roman has a lot to teach - but Trent Dilfer is his QB - he doesn't have time to teach Dilfer so much about the game to overcome what he can't physically do - so he tries his best and game plans around Dilfer's game - it doesn't work and Roman gets fired.

 

That's a Trent Dilfer issue.

Edited February 6, 2016 by Triple Threat

[Marty McFly]

 

I don't see this at all, walk me through it? If he's looking at technical details (where the QB is looking and how he's moving his feet for a particular play) and what he's seeing is not appropriate, one of two things are possible:

 

1) Taylor isn't taking coaching

2) Taylor isn't being well coached

 

Taylor isn't really a 5th year player, you realize that, right? He's been in the league 5 years, but this is the first year he's played and had film and people watching it with him. No one is filming the QB on the scout team and reviewing the film with him. So I think it's a reasonable supposition to think this is his first-shot at first-tier coaching.

 

How is this a shot at Cam Cameron and Gary Kubiak?

This, and didnt the Ravens have 3 diff OCs during his 5 year learning camp in Baltimore? This truly was Tyrods 1st year. Whether the Ripley believes it or not.

[3rdand12]

Opinions are like bellybuttons...Everyone has one!

 

We will be reading all kinds of analysis of each aspect of the last season and how it will evolve into the next one...

 

As it should be. Taylor's growth will be predicated on whether or not he trusts his offensive line. The right side of that line would break down often, giving him another thing to think about as he was going through his progressions.

 

Shore up that right side of the line and then see how he does.

 

There's my bellybutton.

Excellent navel introspection!

 

It's all speculation. I've heard plenty from the Bay Area that was pretty scathing about Roman as well as about Kaepernick. The biggest indictment of Kaepernick is that he was the same player after Roman left. There still exists the issues that someone (Harbaugh/Roman/whoever) didn't adjust to the situation and pretty much kept the player in the situation that made him fail.

 

I'm not trying to suggest that Tyrod isn't coachable. His improvement over the past 5 years says that he is. I have no issue with his work ethic either. It's just that this particular thing might not be fixable for him. It's no damning indictment on his intelligence, some people just can't learn certain things. It's existed in some manifestation under 4 different NFL OC's now so maybe coaching isn't the issue. That's the point I'm trying to make and I take great exception to the likes of Trent Dilfer calling out coaches when he's never been seemingly willing to do the job himself.

as do I.

 

Anyone can see that TT does not scan the field as much as we would like. But i did notice he learned how to look off a safety now and agin later in the season.

Coaching ?

we shall see. Roman has a rather large playbook and understands multiple concepts. Lets see what a bunch of healthy pass catcher looks like this year perhaps?

I think they're fair criticisms of the offense this year, as it was very limited. Yet it still exceeded expectations. I think what Dilfer laid out is the target to work on for the 2016 season.

Always a nice fellow you are GG. Optimistic too.

 

So i will agree with you

Trent Dilfer is not the only one to speak out against Roman's schemes and teaching prowess. Look up Greg Bedard, he works for SI. He broke down both Bills game vs. the Patriots and he really thrashed on the scheme in great depth. He specifically states multiple times that Roman runs a 3rd grade passing attack and it is by far the simplest one in the league.

the old Bill Walsh hi lo stuff?

Is simple bad?

i am one who says "play execution is what wins games"

[8-8 Forever?]

Then there's this: Dilfer's old coach with the Baltimore Ravens, Brian Billick, hinted at this point on our panel two weeks back, saying "It’s what’s being called and the way they want to play it. So it’s two different conversations: Is he operating within the offense and can they win that way vs. is he going to be a legitimate, elite, upper-echelon quarterback?” So apparently Billick actually questions the offensive scheme?

 

 

this to me is the most important part but not really a negative:

 

the way Roman had to call this offense was with the "nugget" best chance to win. You had a first year starting QB and coaches with all new players and you can not ignore the injuries on offense let's cut it loose with Woods, Hogan and Gragg. Roman felt the best option was not to cut Tyrod loose because it if fails you've lost him. I like what Roman did and how he did it there is a method to his madness. You can see what has happened to Kaep without Roman. They will open things up next year with Tyrod I guarantee it

i agree, there is a method to Roman's madness. he was definately limiting the playbook this year to protect and bring TT along. no question. plus TT was pretty well injured for half the season. next year they go to the next level. you started to see it the last two games. this is all a process. its up to Whaley to get a half a dozen key guys signed , add a couple more and go from there ..

Excellent points! and I expect the offense to improve even more this season.

"We led the NFL in rushing even with numerous games missed by both McCoy and Williams" -- very good point

[Hapless Bills Fan]

 

Taylor is a 5th year player. He's not the same QB he was at Virginia Tech so he's developed. He didn't get magically better all by himself, he's been coached up to become who he is. It's become a cute little thing to call him "basically a rookie" but he's really not. This is a long term work-in-progress. 2015 was the fruition of the prior 4 years in Baltimore.

 

Bad habits like his feet and eyes not being in sync is something that either natural (so he's not taken the coaching) or they are learned (he's been taught them). It didn't magically appear in Buffalo if you watch him play for the Ravens. That's why it's a shot at Cameron/Kubiak. They are the guys that actually developed him and either taught him bad habits or didn't coach him out of them.

 

Ok, thanks for walking me through your thought process.

 

There are some non-sequiturs in there as a response to what I posted. For example, your first sentence can be true and yet it can also be true, as I said "Taylor isn't really a 5th year player, you realize that, right? He's been in the league 5 years, but this is the first year he's played and had film and people watching it with him. No one is filming the QB on the scout team and reviewing the film with him. So I think it's a reasonable supposition to think this is his first-shot at first-tier coaching." I'm not calling him a rookie, but is running the scout team and watching the regular offense on film after the game different than actually watching it unfold in real-time in front of you, I think 10 out of 10 NFL QB would say "hell yeah". Cameron and Kubiak's first priority was Flacco and the team's starting offense. Had to be. Did they coach Taylor when they had time, sure, but the starting offense gets fed first and the backup gets the scraps, that's just how it is. So now Taylor is the starter, and it's on Lee and Roman to make him the priority and coach him up from wherever he was.

 

I really loathe dismissive schtuff like "it's become a cute little thing to call him basically a rookie", first of all because it's a straw man here - I didn't call Taylor "basically a rookie". But to introduce a distinction between Taylor and a guy who's actually been starting games in the league, well, I don't think you have to go very far to find experts to say "it's not cute, there really is a difference between prepping and watching vs. starting". He's not a rookie, but he's not a multi-year starter either.

 

I don't think Dilfer said his feet and eyes weren't in sync (with each other), he said they weren't in sync with what was developing down the field. There's several parts to that - does he recognize what's developing down the field? which is different to do in real time on Sunday than in the film room. And if he does recognize it, is he responding the right way, looking at the right things, reacting with his feet. I could be wrong, but I don't think as the backup, Cameron and Kubiak were coaching Taylor in that regard. Basic technique, basic footwork, yes, and he's clearly improved there.

 

Anyway, either he's getting good coaching or he's not, he'll develop or he won't, Roman's offense will progress or it won't. Others have made the very valid point that the sound bite quoted makes it impossible to tell what Dilfer is really seeing, in any case.

I'm not trying to suggest that Tyrod isn't coachable. His improvement over the past 5 years says that he is. I have no issue with his work ethic either. It's just that this particular thing might not be fixable for him. It's no damning indictment on his intelligence, some people just can't learn certain things. It's existed in some manifestation under 4 different NFL OC's now so maybe coaching isn't the issue. That's the point I'm trying to make and I take great exception to the likes of Trent Dilfer calling out coaches when he's never been seemingly willing to do the job himself.

 

Where we differ, is that I don't think Taylor was in a position to have 4 different NFL OC's giving him coaching on these points. I could be wrong, but I simply don't think that's something there's time for during the season. While the backup is running the scout team giving looks to the D, the DC and D coaches are watching the D. The OC and QB coach are working with the 1st team offense. In preseason, OTA, and training camp, they have time to work with him on technique, but not on read/react to specific plays because the D in practice is not game-planning for the O in practice. I could be mistaken, often am.

 

I do take your point about the "likes of Trent Dilfer calling out coaches", on the other hand, if you take that to its logical conclusion every media pundit should shut up and we should all stop posting.

[CardinalScotts]

I hear you. Clearly Roman is adept at helping quarterbacks play pretty well...kap, Alex Smith, now our Tyrod. A question that's been floating around in my head is can he get a qb to elite. If Aaron Rodgers spends all those years under Roman instead of in Green bay does he ever become league MVP.

 

I've heard Keith Hernandez say that for a guy to become a star he sometimes needs his coach to treat him like a star. I don't know the specifics of developing a qb so, like you, I really wish dilfer had elaborated.

Rodgers probably wins one super bowl like now

[CommonCents]

For the posters referring to execution being paramount, that is all fine and dandy but your missing a few things. You don't pay a limited QB 18-20 million to run a simplified offense because he can "execute" a go route.

 

Is the goal championships or wildcards? As much credit as Roman gets for his run action he gets an equal amount for his lack of creativity in the passing game. We can attribute that to play calling for a first year quarterback. If things don't change this year as far as complexity and YAC I would be highly against opening the vault for TT.

 

Executing a simple scheme may or may not end the playoff streak, long term we all should want more from both the OC and QB. Lets hope we develop that. Until then don't overpay the QB and don't pass on any qualified prospects that could improve the position.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Didn't find this linked, apologies if it's buried in another thread, but I think it deserves its own.

 

Ty Dunne interview of Trent Dilfer, who managed to parlay intense study of the game into a QB and analyst career. While being overall complimentary of Taylor, Dilfer raises some red flags about the Buffalo Bills offense. Bottom line up front: "To Dilfer, offensive coordinator Greg Roman's scheme and how Taylor is being taught by coaches is a problem"

 

Dilfer doesn't like Roman's passing offense: "I’m not a fan of what they do schematically in their passing game. I think it needs to grow a little bit. They’re very predicated off play action and their run game." Well, there are many ways to skin an onion, and arguably he could "not be a fan" but it still derives from a winning offense in SF.

 

Then there's this: Dilfer's old coach with the Baltimore Ravens, Brian Billick, hinted at this point on our panel two weeks back, saying "It’s what’s being called and the way they want to play it. So it’s two different conversations: Is he operating within the offense and can they win that way vs. is he going to be a legitimate, elite, upper-echelon quarterback?” So apparently Billick actually questions the offensive scheme?

 

Dilfer doesn't think Taylor is getting good teaching: “We forget these coaches are supposed to be teachers," Dilfer said. "And when they’re not, it affects the players. And unfortunately, the NFL doesn’t have all good teachers. There are a lot of guys who have coached and have ‘OC’ by their name—it doesn’t mean they can teach. Usually you can tell if a quarterback’s being developed right by what his eyes and feet are doing. That offense doesn’t have a real flow to the passing game. The feet and the eyes don’t always match what’s going on downfield. That’s not a Tyrod Taylor issue. That’s a coaching issue.”

 

*sigh* I thought we had finally brought in serious, legit coaching on both sides of the ball - even if I was worried that Rex Ryan wouldn't utilize our D. Then I became disillusioned with Rex's D. Now it seems, even if the offensive and QB coaching is better than it was under Marrone - maybe it's still not good?

 

 

Read that today and Dilfer is wrong. TT is not a drop back passer and if Roman did that then we would see the TT of the probowl.

Interesting piece by Dunne. Roman has alwas had critics because of his passing game component, but his offenses have produced. I guess it really depends on whether one thinks an offense - minus a truly elite defense to keep scores down - that is predicated on a run-heavy approach and a simple passing game canever win much on its own. The jury is definitely out on that because SF always had an elite defense. I for one believe that this is a passing league and that run-heavy offenses generally can't succeed (with rare exceptions).

 

Given this, i expect the draft to be defense heavy.

 

Another article in the paper today said they were going offense heavy.