Quiet Indictment of Lee/Roman - Trent Dilfer

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Didn't find this linked, apologies if it's buried in another thread, but I think it deserves its own.

 

Ty Dunne interview of Trent Dilfer, who managed to parlay intense study of the game into a QB and analyst career. While being overall complimentary of Taylor, Dilfer raises some red flags about the Buffalo Bills offense. Bottom line up front: "To Dilfer, offensive coordinator Greg Roman's scheme and how Taylor is being taught by coaches is a problem"

 

Dilfer doesn't like Roman's passing offense: "I’m not a fan of what they do schematically in their passing game. I think it needs to grow a little bit. They’re very predicated off play action and their run game." Well, there are many ways to skin an onion, and arguably he could "not be a fan" but it still derives from a winning offense in SF.

 

Then there's this: Dilfer's old coach with the Baltimore Ravens, Brian Billick, hinted at this point on our panel two weeks back, saying "It’s what’s being called and the way they want to play it. So it’s two different conversations: Is he operating within the offense and can they win that way vs. is he going to be a legitimate, elite, upper-echelon quarterback?” So apparently Billick actually questions the offensive scheme?

 

Dilfer doesn't think Taylor is getting good teaching: “We forget these coaches are supposed to be teachers," Dilfer said. "And when they’re not, it affects the players. And unfortunately, the NFL doesn’t have all good teachers. There are a lot of guys who have coached and have ‘OC’ by their name—it doesn’t mean they can teach. Usually you can tell if a quarterback’s being developed right by what his eyes and feet are doing. That offense doesn’t have a real flow to the passing game. The feet and the eyes don’t always match what’s going on downfield. That’s not a Tyrod Taylor issue. That’s a coaching issue.”

 

*sigh* I thought we had finally brought in serious, legit coaching on both sides of the ball - even if I was worried that Rex Ryan wouldn't utilize our D. Then I became disillusioned with Rex's D. Now it seems, even if the offensive and QB coaching is better than it was under Marrone - maybe it's still not good?

[dave mcbride]

Interesting piece by Dunne. Roman has alwas had critics because of his passing game component, but his offenses have produced. I guess it really depends on whether one thinks an offense - minus a truly elite defense to keep scores down - that is predicated on a run-heavy approach and a simple passing game canever win much on its own. The jury is definitely out on that because SF always had an elite defense. I for one believe that this is a passing league and that run-heavy offenses generally can't succeed (with rare exceptions).

 

Given this, i expect the draft to be defense heavy.

[Blokestradamus]

Don't forget that Dilfer has his own agenda with all this stuff. He fancies himself as a QB guru and he's a former QB so he's going to hate anything that doesn't make the QB a centrepiece.

 

If he still has bad habits as a 5th year player, maybe it's the player at fault. Maybe the player hasn't taken to the coaching he's received. He's not just having a go at Roman here, he's also taking shots at Cam Cameron and Gary Kubiak, even if he doesn't realise it.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Don't forget that Dilfer has his own agenda with all this stuff. He fancies himself as a QB guru and he's a former QB so he's going to hate anything that doesn't make the QB a centrepiece.

 

If he still has bad habits as a 5th year player, maybe it's the player at fault. Maybe the player hasn't taken to the coaching he's received. He's not just having a go at Roman here, he's also taking shots at Cam Cameron and Gary Kubiak, even if he doesn't realise it.

 

I don't see this at all, walk me through it? If he's looking at technical details (where the QB is looking and how he's moving his feet for a particular play) and what he's seeing is not appropriate, one of two things are possible:

 

1) Taylor isn't taking coaching

2) Taylor isn't being well coached

 

Taylor isn't really a 5th year player, you realize that, right? He's been in the league 5 years, but this is the first year he's played and had film and people watching it with him. No one is filming the QB on the scout team and reviewing the film with him. So I think it's a reasonable supposition to think this is his first-shot at first-tier coaching.

 

How is this a shot at Cam Cameron and Gary Kubiak?

Edited February 6, 2016 by Hopeful

[Rubes]

It seems to me that Dilfer is talking about two different things. On the one hand, there is the offensive scheme; is it effective? Does it produce? Can it succeed in this league?

 

On the other hand is the concept of teaching; are the coaches good teachers? Do they instill good habits? Do they effectively communicate the scheme to the players?

 

I see these as two completely separate things, but he is implying that they are somehow the same. I'm not sure if Roman and friends are good at both, but it sure seemed to my untrained eye that he was doing a pretty decent job of both.

 

I can see how some (such as dave, and I guess Dilfer) believe the scheme will not produce high-level success in this league, but I think that remains to be seen.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Interesting.... As a guess, Sounds like he's indicating Taylor isn't moving coverage with his eyes and foot work or moving his feet as he goes through his reads a la brees... Or maybe it's the o line not creating throwing lanes based on routes????

 

Love the idea of watching this kid continue to get better... With his deep ball, if he gets his underneath game going he could be lethal

[Blokestradamus]

 

I don't see this at all, walk me through it? If he's looking at technical details (where the QB is looking and how he's moving his feet for a particular play) and what he's seeing is not appropriate, one of two things are possible:

 

1) Taylor isn't taking coaching

2) Taylor isn't being well coached

 

Taylor isn't really a 5th year player, you realize that, right? He's been in the league 5 years, but this is the first year he's played and had film and people watching it with him. No one is filming the QB on the scout team and reviewing the film with him. So I think it's a reasonable supposition to think this is his first-shot at first-tier coaching.

 

How is this a shot at Cam Cameron and Gary Kubiak?

 

Taylor is a 5th year player. He's not the same QB he was at Virginia Tech so he's developed. He didn't get magically better all by himself, he's been coached up to become who he is. It's become a cute little thing to call him "basically a rookie" but he's really not. This is a long term work-in-progress. 2015 was the fruition of the prior 4 years in Baltimore.

 

Bad habits like his feet and eyes not being in sync is something that either natural (so he's not taken the coaching) or they are learned (he's been taught them). It didn't magically appear in Buffalo if you watch him play for the Ravens. That's why it's a shot at Cameron/Kubiak. They are the guys that actually developed him and either taught him bad habits or didn't coach him out of them.

 

Roman's passing game isn't my favourite thing in the world but you can only work with what you have. At some point, you have to wonder if the player is deficient (in which case, stop giving him plays that show the weakness). It's the coaching flaw that got SF with Kaepernick, putting too much on his plate and then ploughing through with blissful ignorance when it didn't work. I hope it's not going to be a case of history repeating itself.

[CardinalScotts]

Then there's this: Dilfer's old coach with the Baltimore Ravens, Brian Billick, hinted at this point on our panel two weeks back, saying "It’s what’s being called and the way they want to play it. So it’s two different conversations: Is he operating within the offense and can they win that way vs. is he going to be a legitimate, elite, upper-echelon quarterback?” So apparently Billick actually questions the offensive scheme?

 

 

this to me is the most important part but not really a negative:

 

the way Roman had to call this offense was with the "nugget" best chance to win. You had a first year starting QB and coaches with all new players and you can not ignore the injuries on offense let's cut it loose with Woods, Hogan and Gragg. Roman felt the best option was not to cut Tyrod loose because it if fails you've lost him. I like what Roman did and how he did it there is a method to his madness. You can see what has happened to Kaep without Roman. They will open things up next year with Tyrod I guarantee it

[YoloinOhio]

 

Taylor is a 5th year player. He's not the same QB he was at Virginia Tech so he's developed. He didn't get magically better all by himself, he's been coached up to become who he is. It's become a cute little thing to call him "basically a rookie" but he's really not. This is a long term work-in-progress. 2015 was the fruition of the prior 4 years in Baltimore.

 

Bad habits like his feet and eyes not being in sync is something that either natural (so he's not taken the coaching) or they are learned (he's been taught them). It didn't magically appear in Buffalo if you watch him play for the Ravens. That's why it's a shot at Cameron/Kubiak. They are the guys that actually developed him and either taught him bad habits or didn't coach him out of them.

 

Roman's passing game isn't my favourite thing in the world but you can only work with what you have. At some point, you have to wonder if the player is deficient (in which case, stop giving him plays that show the weakness). It's the coaching flaw that got SF with Kaepernick, putting too much on his plate and then ploughing through with blissful ignorance when it didn't work. I hope it's not going to be a case of history repeating itself.

if what I heard is true about Kap, he wasn't a continuous learner. He didn't want to keep working to evolve. He saw immediate success and thought he didn't need to keep developing as a QB. Defenses figured out how to stop him and at that point you need to develop the part of your game that the D is forcing you to do (throw deep (ex Alex smith, Tannehill), throw over the middle, whatever it is. You need to keep up with your film and be a step ahead of the defenses you will face. Kap was not committed to this. He thought he was good enough as he was. This was very frustrating to Roman. I don't see that mindset with TT. He appears more focused on continuous learning. It's not all about the coach. The player has accountability in the teacher-pupil relationship. Just my two cents. So history could repeat itself, but they appear to be pretty different in their approach. Edited February 6, 2016 by YoloinOhio

[papazoid]

#1 - all fair analysis from dilfer

 

#2 - the very poor play from the right side of the O-line (RG, RT) wreaked havoc with the bills run first mentality and TT's ability to look around and "see" the field.

 

#3- this will be the first year in TT"s career where he will be getting first team reps in practice......I expect a jump in his teachable development.

 

#4- if TT gets injured, which he will , the season is OVER. that can't be said for any other player or position.

 

#5- draft a QB of the future in this years first or second round. short term needs (LB, etc..) should not trump long term needs (franchise QB)

[NorthBuffaloKid]

Opinions are like bellybuttons...Everyone has one!

 

We will be reading all kinds of analysis of each aspect of the last season and how it will evolve into the next one...

 

As it should be. Taylor's growth will be predicated on whether or not he trusts his offensive line. The right side of that line would break down often, giving him another thing to think about as he was going through his progressions.

 

Shore up that right side of the line and then see how he does.

 

There's my bellybutton.

[Blokestradamus]

if what I heard is true about Kap, he wasn't a continuous learner. He didn't want to keep working to evolve. He saw immediate success and thought he didn't need to keep developing as a QB. Defenses figured out how to stop him and at that point you need to develop the part of your game that the D is forcing you to do (throw deep (ex Alex smith, Tannehill), throw over the middle, whatever it is. You need to keep up with your film and be a step ahead of the defenses you will face. Kap was not committed to this. He thought he was good enough as he was. This was very frustrating to Roman. I don't see that mindset with TT. He appears more focused on continuous learning. It's not all about the coach. The player has accountability in the teacher-pupil relationship. Just my two cents. So history could repeat itself, but they appear to be pretty different in their approach.

 

It's all speculation. I've heard plenty from the Bay Area that was pretty scathing about Roman as well as about Kaepernick. The biggest indictment of Kaepernick is that he was the same player after Roman left. There still exists the issues that someone (Harbaugh/Roman/whoever) didn't adjust to the situation and pretty much kept the player in the situation that made him fail.

 

I'm not trying to suggest that Tyrod isn't coachable. His improvement over the past 5 years says that he is. I have no issue with his work ethic either. It's just that this particular thing might not be fixable for him. It's no damning indictment on his intelligence, some people just can't learn certain things. It's existed in some manifestation under 4 different NFL OC's now so maybe coaching isn't the issue. That's the point I'm trying to make and I take great exception to the likes of Trent Dilfer calling out coaches when he's never been seemingly willing to do the job himself.

[YoloinOhio]

 

It's all speculation. I've heard plenty from the Bay Area that was pretty scathing about Roman as well as about Kaepernick. The biggest indictment of Kaepernick is that he was the same player after Roman left. There still exists the issues that someone (Harbaugh/Roman/whoever) didn't adjust to the situation and pretty much kept the player in the situation that made him fail.

 

I'm not trying to suggest that Tyrod isn't coachable. His improvement over the past 5 years says that he is. I have no issue with his work ethic either. It's just that this particular thing might not be fixable for him. It's no damning indictment on his intelligence, some people just can't learn certain things. It's existed in some manifestation under 4 different NFL OC's now so maybe coaching isn't the issue. That's the point I'm trying to make and I take great exception to the likes of Trent Dilfer calling out coaches when he's never been seemingly willing to do the job himself.

Elite 11 though! Haha. Dilfer puts more effort into that than anything. Edited February 6, 2016 by YoloinOhio

[Blokestradamus]

Elite 11 though! Haha.

 

I respect his thought process in trying to take a different approach with that stuff, don't get me wrong. I just don't think he'd have the balls to put his reputation on the line and coach grown men out of their habits. Doing it with 17 year olds, there's a multitude of reasons why they don't pan out. With guys in the NFL on merit, a different ball game.

[jahnyc]

I think the play action and run first focus of the offense is what allowed TT to have success this year. Is TT a pure pocket passer? Probably not now, and he may never be. The running game set up the passing game, which makes sense when you have a head coach that wants a strong running game and a quarterback who is a first time starter in the league. I thought Roman had a good first year with the Bills as the OC. Kapernick fell apart last year, and I have to believe some of that was SF missing Roman as OC. We will see if TT makes progress next season. If he does, maybe the offense will open up a bit. I think it is entirely up to TT and the confidence the coaches have in him to process and execute a more sophisticated passing attack.

[Big Turk]

So let me get this straight:

 

A first time starter in the NFL who only got 1/3 of the reps in training camp, had no real skill position continuity throughout camp or the first 4-6 weeks of the season, made the pro bowl, had one of the best Bills QB seasons in the last 20 years and was in the top 5 or 6 in QB rating isn't getting coached properly.

 

We led the NFL in rushing even with numerous games missed by both McCoy and Williams. Our offense went from near the bottom of the league last year to 13th this year in the first year under a completely new coaching staff and scheme.

 

But the coaching sucked. Gosh, imagine how much better it could have been if we got "good" coaching.

 

Tyrod for MVP I guess....

[FireChan]

So let me get this straight:

 

A first time starter in the NFL who only got 1/3 of the reps in training camp, had no real skill position continuity throughout camp or the first 4-6 weeks of the season, made the pro bowl, had one of the best Bills QB seasons in the last 20 years and was in the top 5 or 6 in QB rating isn't getting coached properly.

 

We led the NFL in rushing even with numerous games missed by both McCoy and Williams. Our offense went from near the bottom of the league last year to 13th this year in the first year under a completely new coaching staff and scheme.

 

But the coaching sucked. Gosh, imagine how much better it could have been if we got "good" coaching.

 

Tyrod for MVP I guess....

Coaching a running game and a passing game are actually different.

[Blokestradamus]

https://vine.co/v/OK5TtYVmZ7b

 

Great wisdom from the man that brought us this. #TrentDilfer4Prez!

[Big Turk]

Coaching a running game and a passing game are actually different.

Yes but if you have a strong running game why would you not predicate your pass game off play action?

Edited February 6, 2016 by matter2003

[klos63]

So let me get this straight:

 

A first time starter in the NFL who only got 1/3 of the reps in training camp, had no real skill position continuity throughout camp or the first 4-6 weeks of the season, made the pro bowl, had one of the best Bills QB seasons in the last 20 years and was in the top 5 or 6 in QB rating isn't getting coached properly.

 

We led the NFL in rushing even with numerous games missed by both McCoy and Williams. Our offense went from near the bottom of the league last year to 13th this year in the first year under a completely new coaching staff and scheme.

 

But the coaching sucked. Gosh, imagine how much better it could have been if we got "good" coaching.

 

Tyrod for MVP I guess....

Excellent points! and I expect the offense to improve even more this season.