Rex's D

[The Big Cat]

 

Opinions on what?

 

I think its clear Rex ruined a good thing with this defense. I hope he gets it fixed next year and the team wins more games. Do I think this will happen? No I don't.

 

I hope I'm wrong.

 

Of course it's clear to you. You roundly reject any/all evidence to the contrary.

[Leroi]

This article reads as if a 13 year old wrote it.

 

Rex is a defensive genius. He will figure this thing out. That 2nd pats game was amazing.

 

Numbers will follow in time, patience is key.

 

 

 

Imo

[GG]

"We play New England for instance, we ran nothing but the defense that was played the year before. And you know, I knew better, I thought going in the first game, that is not how you play this guy."

And he gave the response to elaborate on how he said that he ran a hybrid of last year's defense and his defense. He also expanded the answer to explain why he didn't rush as much because that was not going to work against the offenses that people threw at Buffalo.

 

What no one is taking about is how would Schwartz's defense fare this year if he still insisted on full DL rush and the QBs would simply hit the quick underneath routes for easy 15 yard gains.

 

Schwartz got lucky with personnel and timing of his scheme. But very likely that the defense would have fallen off a lot this year.

[GunnerBill]

And he gave the response to elaborate on how he said that he ran a hybrid of last year's defense and his defense. He also expanded the answer to explain why he didn't rush as much because that was not going to work against the offenses that people threw at Buffalo.

 

What no one is taking about is how would Schwartz's defense fare this year if he still insisted on full DL rush and the QBs would simply hit the quick underneath routes for easy 15 yard gains.

 

Schwartz got lucky with personnel and timing of his scheme. But very likely that the defense would have fallen off a lot this year.

 

Actually when he started talking about the hybrid he was talking in general. He was very clear when he was talking about that game that they ran "nothing but last year's defense". Which just is not true.

 

As for the Schwartz D - maybe it would have fallen off this year... maybe it wouldn't. Nobody can know and the Rex defenders attempts to assert it would definitely so are frankly an attempt to distract from the fact that the defense did fall off a lot and did so under Rex Ryan.

 

The original article disproves nothing most of the sensible critics have said. I have been consistent on this board that stylistically I am not a fan of the Rex version of the 46 defense and I actually think it is slightly outdated in the modern NFL - however, what I want Rex to do is coach his scheme - because he is sure as hell better at that than at trying to mesh or whatever he was doing this year. I'd rather them play "Rex Ryan defense" every week. Do I think it'd be a top 5 defense? No frankly I don't... but I doubt it'd be 19th either. And to be honest if we are somewhere around 8th-12th next year then that is probably as good as we are going to get.

 

Whatever defense he runs there is no excuse for Marcel Dareus dropping - EVER. We are paying the guy $100million to rush the passer and disrupt up front. Giving up two touchdowns to KC the week after we rattled Brady with Marcel dropping into coverage was the most soul destroying sight of the season.

Edited January 25, 2016 by GunnerBill

[8-8 Forever?]

I've heard, of course, that Rex tried - and failed - to merge systems.

 

But I hadn't seen this article before. Thanks for posting. Unlike much of the schlop in the media these days, this was pretty well-reasoned and informative.

 

I still think it's interesting that Schwartz could get good productivity from these players and Rex couldn't. No matter how you slice and dice it, this year's disappointment is all on Rex.

 

While the article does make me a bit more optimistic about 2016, I'm a long time snake-bitten Bills fan and perpetually in the I'LL BELIEVE IT WHEN I SEE IT mode these days.

 

 

" this year's disappointment is all on Rex" - nah, don't think so. If you believe Schwartz had to best scheme for these players, then it's on Pegs for not giving Marrone the commitment and contract extension that he wanted and frankly had a right to ask for from a new owner who logically would be inclined to clean house. Pegs wouldn't do it, so Marrone properly walked away before getting replaced , and of course that meant bye bye Schwartzy as well. So basically, Ralph's death set in motion the end of Schwartz and the 9 wide.

 

When you change DC's, the scheme will be changing, as coaches know their own system, and thats what they will be running, period, whether players fit it or not. In college you can change out the players easily as you have 70-80 to choose from. In the Pros, you are stuck with the guys under contract. Rex tried to merge a little, but he should not have bothered. It's like coach K moving to Georgetown and suddenly not running the Duke 1-4 offense. Not gonna happen .. that's what the guy knows and that is what the fans and going to get.

 

Next time, don't have a 95 year old owner and things will go a little better. Of course, he did that little thing like save the team. gotta take the good with the bad. RIP Ralph

Look, I don't like Rex as a person. His personality annoys me and I think he's a poor head coach. However, pretending his defenses have sucked doesn't help those of us saying that he's unable to be the top guy on a team.

hey Belichicks personality annoys me and I'd take him any day of the week. gotta separate personal from business

Edited January 25, 2016 by 8and8-->NoMore

[boyst]

 

Of course it's clear to you. You roundly reject any/all evidence to the contrary.

well, you're still not really subjecting any real evidence to us other than opinion, for one.

 

Not to mention, this only fortifies what many are saying here. Rex Ryan did not present a good defense. That simple truth has nothing to do with what Schwartz did. That simple truth has to do with what Rex Ryan said he would be able to and acknowledge maintaining the defense.

 

The simple fact that people believe, and have said - including Rex - that we have to fix the defense is quite telling. There was nothing to fix prior to this year.

 

There can be hope for Rex, this article can be used as hope for the future but the truth is Rex Ryan was not a good defensive coach this year and does not show true potential in going forward with our defense. That is due to lack of talent/players to fit his scheme which we cannot afford and the fact that we were built in a totally different fashion.

 

edit, but yeah, bang your drum.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Boyst62

[Leroi]

well, you're still not really subjecting any real evidence to us other than opinion, for one.

 

Not to mention, this only fortifies what many are saying here. Rex Ryan did not present a good defense. That simple truth has nothing to do with what Schwartz did. That simple truth has to do with what Rex Ryan said he would be able to and acknowledge maintaining the defense.

 

The simple fact that people believe, and have said - including Rex - that we have to fix the defense is quite telling. There was nothing to fix prior to this year.

 

There can be hope for Rex, this article can be used as hope for the future but the truth is Rex Ryan was not a good defensive coach this year and does not show true potential in going forward with our defense. That is due to lack of talent/players to fit his scheme which we cannot afford and the fact that we were built in a totally different fashion.

 

edit, but yeah, bang your drum.

Try reading the article....it's not that simple...

 

 

 

Imo

Edited January 26, 2016 by Leroi

[boyst]

Try reading the article....it's not that simple...

 

 

 

Imo

yeah, it is. i tried reading the article. it is that simple.

 

it is a simple article without any enlightenment. it has simple conclusions and only snap shots.

 

i watched enough of the bills and saw what was occurring on the field to know that rex tried and failed. his ability to execute a defense beyond his exactly patterned, star studded, heavily invested jets D ...failed. this is on rex, not the players, and most humorously - as the article tries to say - it's not the fault of the system/scheme.

 

the coach controls the scheme and system. rex's control of the defense failed. the fact that this guy wasted an entire article and my time reading it to say that the scheme of the bills defense is what failed and not rex ryan. i mean, that's some straight dumbass right there.

 

this is getting ridiculous.

[Rockinon]

The article is interesting but what it proves is that yet again in last week's press conference he can't help let his bravado get the better of him.

 

If he had claimed that what he did in the first game was try to merge two systems unsuccessfully, which is in fact what the article proves he did, and then in the 2nd game he ran his own defense that would have been fair and accurate. What in fact he did say was he ran "nothing but last year's defense."

 

That is patently nonsense. That is not to say Schwartz's scheme was perfect against New England either it shut them down most of the first half in 2014 and they came out 2nd half gave up totally on the run and went to the ball out quick short passing game and killed us and we couldn't cover Gronk.

I wouldn't say patently nonsense. I think Brady might have broken a record for getting rid of the ball quickly throughout that first game. The Patriots had a game plan to combat against the Schwarts D. The defensive line couldn't pressure quick enough even though the front four were easily collapsing the pocket. It was 3 step drop and the ball was gone.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Rockinon

[Kelly the Dog]

GG brings up a good point. Teams realized what the Bills did last year and how well the fearsome foursome rushed the passer and how many sacks we got. In the first game of the year, the Colts played us fairly vanilla and ran their regular offense. We did well and Luck was pretty much a non factor.

 

The second game was the turning point of the season. Belichick and Brady made sure the front four was not going to hurt him. They threw pretty much every pass within two seconds. There was zero chance even Schwqartz's defense was going to get any sacks against that offense. Rex made a monumental strategic error by not pressing and the Pats caught all kinds of short passes, Lewis killed us and we looked back on our heels.

 

The third game the Dolphins, stupidly, just played their regular offense and Tannehill would drop back and look around and again we played pretty well and won the game.

 

The fourth game, against another smart coach and QB, Eli Manning threw virtually every pass quickly. There was no time for a rush and again we were carved up by a short passing game especially because Rex decided to take OBJ out of the game.

 

From then on, pretty much every team threw quick passes against us. The front four got more and more frustrated. Injuries mounted, and we didn't improve until late.

 

But the fact is, Schwartz's defense was not going to be able to get sacks against Brady or Eli any more than Rex's did, and we shut down the two guys that tried to step back and throw. It wasn't until the Bengals game, an undefeated team with a treendous offense and line at that point in the season, who started out throwing very quick, that we couldn't mount any rush.

And Dalton stepped back and had all day to throw

[3rdand12]

Haven't seen this posted. Have been quiet the past couple days, so if it's been out there (published on 1/23) please ignore.

 

I posted it in another thread, but it may actually warrant its own.

 

RE: Scheme blends and Rex's philosophy vs. Schwartz and where 2015 went wrong defensively:

 

http://cover1.net/news/2016/1/22/mergedsystems

Damn. i love insight!

[GunnerBill]

I wouldn't say patently nonsense. I think Brady might have broken a record for getting rid of the ball quickly throughout that first game. The Patriots had a game plan to combat against the Schwarts D. The defensive line couldn't pressure quick enough even though the front four were easily collapsing the pocket. It was 3 step drop and the ball was gone.

To be clear what I was saying was patently nonsense was that we only ran last year's defence in the first Pats game. The article itself proves we played some form of hybrid mesh.... or mess to be more accurate.

 

And I don't know why the Rex defence league keep referencing Schwartz. I was the biggest Jim Schwartz fan on this board I advocated his hire and I loved his defence. But he is gone he is not coming back he is irrelevant to how the defense performed in 2015. Responsibility for that lies with Rex and Thurman. The only side of this argument that keeps banging on about Schwartz is Rex with his ridiculous, untrue statement that seeks to shift blame and the Rex defenders.

 

Or is it honestly your contention that the defensive regression in 2015 is on Jim Schwartz because teams adjusted their approach and his successor couldn't keep up? I don't want to hear "the defense was bound to get worse" because that is conjecture. Each year's team is the responsibility of that staff. Rex Ryan failed to put talented players in the best position to make plays in 2015. That is the top and bottom of it. He made mistakes trying to mesh schemes he made mistakes with his deployment of key talent and he has to take the blame and front up.... Not try deflection techniques.

 

It is on Rex to put it right in 2016. I think it is 50/50 as to whether he does. But I want him to play HIS defense because ultimately that is what I believe he can coach.

Edited January 26, 2016 by GunnerBill

[3rdand12]

What evidence to contrary do you think you have presented?

That he changed his method in the second meeting ?

I wouldn't say patently nonsense. I think Brady might have broken a record for getting rid of the ball quickly throughout that first game. The Patriots had a game plan to combat against the Schwarts D. The defensive line couldn't pressure quick enough even though the front four were easily collapsing the pocket. It was 3 step drop and the ball was gone.

like Von Miller said, we gotta get there in 1.8 if the ball is coming out at 1.9.

I had never seen that type of game call honestly.

 

Great game call by BB and TB.

[GunnerBill]

That he changed his method in the second meeting ?:

Who didn't accept that? That was obvious. That presents no evidence that Rex didn't mess up the defense this year. Does it give me more hope of a turnaround.... It did briefly and I said as much on here after that game. A week later in a big game in KC the $100m Man was wandering around in coverage whilst Alex Smith read the New York Times before carving apart our secondary for two touchdowns.

[BADOLBILZ]

Haven't seen this posted. Have been quiet the past couple days, so if it's been out there (published on 1/23) please ignore.

 

I posted it in another thread, but it may actually warrant its own.

 

RE: Scheme blends and Rex's philosophy vs. Schwartz and where 2015 went wrong defensively:

 

http://cover1.net/news/2016/1/22/mergedsystems

 

 

I don't even know where to begin with the criticism of this article.

 

The biggest issue in the first Pats game wasn't the fronts.......it was the ill matched coverages which made it possible for Brady to play pitch and catch all day like they had LB's at corner instead of stud pedigree cover corners.

 

Also, no mention of the differences in run responsibility on the front this season..........I mean.....what really was the point that this kid thought he was making?

 

Get a nose tackle in here so the $15M Dareus doesn't have to tie up the guard and center all game. They are cheap. Trust me Whaley. It was the first thing Rex said he needed last offseason and then you guys made zero effort to address it.

 

If possible get a veteran MLB or S to help but if not.......make due with what you got and figure it out.

 

I fully expect them to be a top 10 defense again "statistically" next year but I do think that Rex needs to learn to adapt to some of the changes that have taken place since his Ravens and early Jets successes.

 

In a league dominated by savvy, pocket comfy 30-something QB's actually HITTING the QB is more important than ever.

 

The "pressures" alone do not have the impact they did when QB's were operating on internal clocks that made them throw the ball away in fear of kill shots.

 

You want a well rounded D you gotta' be productive in not only points allowed, yards allowed and pressures but also sacks/hits and turnovers.

 

In recent years Rex "real" D in NY had been lacking in the critical sacks and turnovers categories.

 

Those matter in terms of wins and losses and not being able to produce those is how you can finish top 5 statistically in D and can only win 4 games.

[boyst]

GG brings up a good point. Teams realized what the Bills did last year and how well the fearsome foursome rushed the passer and how many sacks we got. In the first game of the year, the Colts played us fairly vanilla and ran their regular offense. We did well and Luck was pretty much a non factor.

 

The second game was the turning point of the season. Belichick and Brady made sure the front four was not going to hurt him. They threw pretty much every pass within two seconds. There was zero chance even Schwqartz's defense was going to get any sacks against that offense. Rex made a monumental strategic error by not pressing and the Pats caught all kinds of short passes, Lewis killed us and we looked back on our heels.

 

The third game the Dolphins, stupidly, just played their regular offense and Tannehill would drop back and look around and again we played pretty well and won the game.

 

The fourth game, against another smart coach and QB, Eli Manning threw virtually every pass quickly. There was no time for a rush and again we were carved up by a short passing game especially because Rex decided to take OBJ out of the game.

 

From then on, pretty much every team threw quick passes against us. The front four got more and more frustrated. Injuries mounted, and we didn't improve until late.

 

But the fact is, Schwartz's defense was not going to be able to get sacks against Brady or Eli any more than Rex's did, and we shut down the two guys that tried to step back and throw. It wasn't until the Bengals game, an undefeated team with a treendous offense and line at that point in the season, who started out throwing very quick, that we couldn't mount any rush.

And Dalton stepped back and had all day to throw

this may or may not be true, we will never know - ... the what would schwartz have done.

 

but he would have had a lot busier backfield and let the DB's play a much more open game. the chances of turnovers would have increased, likely. it's hard to say, but schwartz let the db's move around a lot and attack. rex pressed straight man which resulted in a lot of defended passes and incomplete passes.

[Kelly the Dog]

this may or may not be true, we will never know - ... the what would schwartz have done.

 

but he would have had a lot busier backfield and let the DB's play a much more open game. the chances of turnovers would have increased, likely. it's hard to say, but schwartz let the db's move around a lot and attack. rex pressed straight man which resulted in a lot of defended passes and incomplete passes.

Agree with that. The point is, however, that teams didn't throw 2 second passes against us when Schwartz was here. They did this year because of what Schwartz did last year. There is no defense that can get sacks against 2 second passes.

[GG]

Actually when he started talking about the hybrid he was talking in general. He was very clear when he was talking about that game that they ran "nothing but last year's defense". Which just is not true.

Or you can look at his statement as "we started running last year's defense until they gored us with the quick ppasses."

 

Have you watched the two Pats* games side by side? I mean the first games in 2014 and 2015?

 

People usually tend to focus on one side of the problem by asking what happened to Rex's D, without much consideration to how the offenses adapt. I urge you to watch the two games side by side, and see how much pressure Schwartz's D generated when Brady had 5-7 drops vs 2 drops. Then compare that to see how many times Brady dropped back 5-7 steps in 2015.

 

Take a notice that Pats* adjusted the game plan, and the vaunted Schwartz defense didn't cause a single punt or TO in the second half. That was the offense that hoodie brought to Buffalo in case Rex wanted to play a Schwartz D. You saw the result.

 

I think that explains what Rex referred to in his further explanation, that he couldn't continue to run the Schwartz scheme because they were getting killed. But when the injury bug hit and Mario quit, he couldn't do much more.

 

As for the Schwartz D - maybe it would have fallen off this year... maybe it wouldn't. Nobody can know and the Rex defenders attempts to assert it would definitely so are frankly an attempt to distract from the fact that the defense did fall off a lot and did so under Rex Ryan.

 

The original article disproves nothing most of the sensible critics have said. I have been consistent on this board that stylistically I am not a fan of the Rex version of the 46 defense and I actually think it is slightly outdated in the modern NFL - however, what I want Rex to do is coach his scheme - because he is sure as hell better at that than at trying to mesh or whatever he was doing this year. I'd rather them play "Rex Ryan defense" every week. Do I think it'd be a top 5 defense? No frankly I don't... but I doubt it'd be 19th either. And to be honest if we are somewhere around 8th-12th next year then that is probably as good as we are going to get.

 

Whatever defense he runs there is no excuse for Marcel Dareus dropping - EVER. We are paying the guy $100million to rush the passer and disrupt up front. Giving up two touchdowns to KC the week after we rattled Brady with Marcel dropping into coverage was the most soul destroying sight of the season.

Again, DLs dropping into coverage is overwrought. If it's about 2% of the plays, that's enough to sow confusion.

[Kelly the Dog]

It's not like all teams threw it quickly. They didn't. After awhile, when Mario quit and Kyle was out we didn't get any pressure no matter how long they sat back there.

[boyst]

Agree with that. The point is, however, that teams didn't throw 2 second passes against us when Schwartz was here. They did this year because of what Schwartz did last year. There is no defense that can get sacks against 2 second passes.

what they did when schwartz was here to beat us was very different. it's apples and watermelons.

 

just knowing a little bit about the wide 9, which i looked up a lot of ... to combat the quick pass the wide 9 does a man up, cover 2 or cover 3. it would have involved dropping brown back in to pass coverage, with safeties on the outside.

 

schwartz's wide 9 with our personnel this year would have had a hard time against the quick pass on paper.

 

i think schwartz would have adjusted and gone to a nickel package, which he also used much more effectively than ryan. i think this is partly a reason why brown played so poorly this year - we took it for granted he was a part of success last year that was actually a byproduct of nickel and dime coverages.