Rex's D

[The Big Cat]

Kinda have to if I'm going to pretend to go along with your line of thinking. Still, this started with you saying the quick throws were because of what Schwartz did last year. Even Rex didn't use that lame excuse, and he's full of excuses. I give you credit for an original excuse that even Rex couldn't think of. Wait a minute; Rex is that you posing as The Big Cat?!

 

You should go back and read the article that's the OP for this thread if you're not following.

[The Big Cat]

 

On Spikes: people who know more than I about D have pointed out that we did, indeed, miss him. But doesn't Rex get some responsibility for not going to Whaley and co. and saying "I need someone to fill the Spikes role, be it Spikes or someone else"? I think he didn't do that because Spikes isn't his kind of ILB. His kind of ILB is a Ray Lewis/David Harris type, an every-down guy who is as stout against both pass and run. Rex had a role in valuing Spikes and deciding who was brought in.

 

Regarding the "concerted strategy to neutralize (us)....the quick passing game": We need someone with premium PFF stats access to check this out. PFF tracks a stat called "time to throw", and I believe premium subscribers can pull it up game by game and ask the question "were QB indeed, throwing more quickly against the Bills in 2015 than in 2014?" I am not a PFF subscriber.

 

For some people, and I'm not saying you're one of them. two things are being conflated: the quick snap, and the quick throw. Teams WERE concertedly trying for the quick snap against us, because word and film both told that we were struggling to get the play in and make substitutions on D, so if they could snap quickly, they could catch us at a disadvantage.

 

Regarding the quick throw, I put it out there up-front that I don't have access to the data to prove or disprove, but my "eyeball test" says that the QB who normally throw quickly against us were still doing so, and the ones who normally don't, weren't. The difference was last year, those that don't, were sitting on their a**es having been sacked, and this year, those were completions. But that's just my eyeball and sometimes "the eyes lie". In any event, the key to defeating a quick passing game is tight, disruptive coverage off the line, and we didn't do that well either.

 

My impression was that attempts to sign David Harris were very real and documented.

 

Re: the quick passes--the OP article talks about how that was neutralized in the second Patriots* matchup, it goes into painstaking detail for how, exactly, Rex adjusted as the season went on.

 

Re: the substitution and presnap issues, I genuinely don't recall that being a major issues throughout the bulk of the latter part of the year. Not saying it went away completely, it clearly did not, but there was a tangible disconnect that lingered with a couple players. PLUS: and I don't really care how often this is dismissed as an "excuse," but when your backend has already been severely compromised by injury and then more injuries are heaped on top of that, what should the expectation level really be?

 

 

 

Re:

[8-8 Forever?]

Once the memo was out to the rest of the league to get rid of the ball quickly, Rex didn't adjust. All season long.

sure he did.. he started dropping front seven guys into short coverage passing lanes , then Mario started going nuts. the chess match was then on, and if it was quick release and we dropped 8, the QB was screwed. if it was 7 step drop and we will bring 6 or 7 , QB again screwed. but if we drop 8 and its 7 step or rush 7 and its quick release, we are in trouble. the art form is to minimize this last situation. Its all down and distance based and what teams tendencies are in certain down and distance. If you know these tendencies, it informs whether to rush or drop based on the situation. This is defense in the NFL today against the better QBs. It works well if your corners can be left on islands (and ours can) as you have 8 guys to work with (to rush or drop)

 

Yes , yes, the Schwartz high school "line em up and go" defense works with our personnel, assuming Kyle is healthy which he wasn't. He is the key. But remember, the better teams see the wide 9 and just run it 35 times.

 

Rex's defense requires a bunch of smart agressive guys who can follow freakin directions. Kyle and Aaron Williams were key as they are our leaders and smart guys on defense. We lost them both. Maybe Rex should have just gone back to Schwartz' 9 wide when the Williams' went down, but (a) not sure he knows how to coach it and (b) not sure that would have worked either with both Williams' out. Is what it is.

 

Remember, Pegs brought all of this on by driving Marrone out (and then of course Schwatz with him, new HC always bring in their own guys), Marrone was smart to put exit provisions in his deal in the event of RWs demise. In comes Rex with a defense he's been running forever, this is what Pegs (who saved the franchise by the way) and by extension, we all bought into. Deal with it. Don't like it, go root for a team with an owner who's got some miles left on him (RIP Ralph) and you won't have all this turmoil.

[The Big Cat]

 

Lol Spikes and Searcy?

 

Give me a break. And the defense was not near the level it was last year before Kyle Williams went down.

 

I have a hard time believing Aaron Williams being hurt was the difference between great and slightly above average defensive play.

 

I'm not saying the injuries didn't take a toll later in the year, they certainly did, but why is it so hard to admit that Rex sucked and was the main reason for the defensive fall out last year?

 

Whether or not you choose to believe the true impact of Aaron Williams' injury is entirely up to you.

 

OUR SAFETIES WERE !@#$ING TERRIBLE

 

Why is it so hard to "admit?" Because a.) it's not a confession and b.) it's not true.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

Aaron Williams looked awful under Rex. How many penalties did he take in that game? He was as immature and unfocused as any other player on the field.

 

Not surprising, seeing as Dareus, Mario, Hughes, Brown, Bradham, Robey and Graham all fell off a sharp cliff from the year before.

[The Big Cat]

Whether or not you chose to believe the true impact of Rex Ryan's ****ty coaching job is entirely up to you.

 

Yep, it's that simple.

[Dopey]

sure he did.. he started dropping front seven guys into short coverage passing lanes , then Mario started going nuts. the chess match was then on, and if it was quick release and we dropped 8, the QB was screwed. if it was 7 step drop and we will bring 6 or 7 , QB again screwed. but if we drop 8 and its 7 step or rush 7 and its quick release, we are in trouble. the art form is to minimize this last situation. Its all down and distance based and what teams tendencies are in certain down and distance. If you know these tendencies, it informs whether to rush or drop based on the situation. This is defense in the NFL today against the better QBs. It works well if your corners can be left on islands (and ours can) as you have 8 guys to work with (to rush or drop)

 

Yes , yes, the Schwartz high school "line em up and go" defense works with our personnel, assuming Kyle is healthy which he wasn't. He is the key. But remember, the better teams see the wide 9 and just run it 35 times.

 

Rex's defense requires a bunch of smart agressive guys who can follow freakin directions. Kyle and Aaron Williams were key as they are our leaders and smart guys on defense. We lost them both. Maybe Rex should have just gone back to Schwartz' 9 wide when the Williams' went down, but (a) not sure he knows how to coach it and (b) not sure that would have worked either with both Williams' out. Is what it is.

 

Remember, Pegs brought all of this on by driving Marrone out (and then of course Schwatz with him, new HC always bring in their own guys), Marrone was smart to put exit provisions in his deal in the event of RWs demise. In comes Rex with a defense he's been running forever, this is what Pegs (who saved the franchise by the way) and by extension, we all bought into. Deal with it. Don't like it, go root for a team with an owner who's got some miles left on him (RIP Ralph) and you won't have all this turmoil.

I said he didn't adjust because Rex' defense always had d tackles dropping into coverage in certain situations. Check the Jets video. It was his same scheme that was figured out by opposing oc's and he didn't adjust/adapt to the scheme being used against him. We'll agree to disagree.

 

Whether or not you choose to believe the true impact of Aaron Williams' injury is entirely up to you.

 

OUR SAFETIES WERE !@#$ING TERRIBLE

 

Why is it so hard to "admit?" Because a.) it's not a confession and b.) it's not true.

and our LB's and our pro bowl DE's and our pro bowl DT's from a season ago. All of these guys played pretty well last year. Would be so much easier to admit rex screwed up the defense and now it needs rebuilding. But...

[The Big Cat]

I said he didn't adjust because Rex' defense always had d tackles dropping into coverage in certain situations. Check the Jets video. It was his same scheme that was figured out by opposing oc's and he didn't adjust/adapt to the scheme being used against him. We'll agree to disagree.

and our LB's and our pro bowl DE's and our pro bowl DT's from a season ago. All of these guys played pretty well last year. Would be so much easier to admit rex screwed up the defense and now it needs rebuilding. But...

 

You've got things completely backwards. Seriously, go back and read the OP article.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

 

My impression was that attempts to sign David Harris were very real and documented.

 

They did, but what point are you trying to make here? If a certain role is critical and one player who fills it isn't available, successful teams either 1) change their scheme to use the players they have 2) find a player or players who fill that role elsewhere. Example: the Bills didn't succeed in signing the OLmen they targeted in FA, so they signed Incognito and drafted Miller in the 3rd. Tony Steward and AJ Tarpley may develop into something someday, but they weren't players you would expect to contribute this year especially in the Whaley "Linebacker U" model.

 

 

Re: the quick passes--the OP article talks about how that was neutralized in the second Patriots* matchup, it goes into painstaking detail for how, exactly, Rex adjusted as the season went on.

 

 

The second Patriots* game was good D. The second Patriots* game was what we expected to see during the first Patriots game, and the Giants game, and the Bengals game, and the Jaguars game.

So we didn't, Why? The offense the Pats* rolled out was nothing the league hasn't seen from them, nothing Rex hasn't seen from them, multiple times. So I ask you again, what point are you trying to make here? Rex is absolved as a coach because for Week 11 he made adjustments (then, frustratingly, that D seemed to disappear for the subsequent 4 games)?

 

 

Re: the substitution and presnap issues, I genuinely don't recall that being a major issues throughout the bulk of the latter part of the year. Not saying it went away completely, it clearly did not, but there was a tangible disconnect that lingered with a couple players. PLUS: and I don't really care how often this is dismissed as an "excuse," but when your backend has already been severely compromised by injury and then more injuries are heaped on top of that, what should the expectation level really be?

 

Last point first: all teams have injuries, including season-ending injuries to key players. In this salary cap/FA era, few teams can stash starter-quality players as backups. So if Rex can't adjust his D to backup players, essentially that's saying under Rex, the Bills are one or two injuries away from another busted season. Why are the Pats* so consistently successful? Because in general, they do this successfully.

 

Ty Dunne's interview of Dennis Thurman regarding late calls was printed 1 Jan. Dunne references Preston Brown saying calls were late the previous week. That sounds to me like the presnap issues continued pretty much to the season's end. Maybe they fixed it for the final game against the Jets

Edited January 29, 2016 by Hopeful

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

 

Yep, it's that simple.

Cute little barbs such as this seem to lose their luster when you ignore counterpoints.

 

Kyle Williams had 1 sack in 5 or 6 games. Seems he fell down the same rabbit hole as Dareus, Mario and Hughes. If you want to hold him up as a lost savior, go right ahead.

 

When Aaron Williams played he contributed to the undisciplined, unfocused mess that was the 2015 Bills defense. If you want to dream he'd have been some sort of savior, and would have avoided the sharp cliff that took down Dareus, Mario, Kyle, Hughes, Brown, Bradham, Robey and Graham, go right ahead.

 

If you want to dream that a run stuffing linebacker who can't play in the nickel was both something Rex wanted and something that would have helped him significantly, go right ahead.

 

My head knows Rex was largely responsible for the sloppy mediocrity of the 2015 defense. Even so, in my heart of hearts I'll always harbor hope that wild-eyed optimism like yours is actually correct.

[The Big Cat]

 

The difference is his head thinks hes right... And there is no use in trying to convince him otherwise.

 

I don't doubt that next years defense will be better, because I think Rex will get guys in here who have more of a feel for his defense, but that doesn't absolve him of last years bad coaching job.... And I don't think that necessarily means we win more games. Rex's teams are still way too undisciplined and lack accountability as was evident this year....It's not a recipe for sustained success.

 

And the difference is you KNOW you're right.

[JohnC]

Anyway, I must have missed the plays Mario Williams didn't go full steam in this past year. So, perhaps, you would please be so kind to point out the specific plays in certain games that Williams didn't make any effort in.

Watching a Rex Ryan coached team last year was infuriating enough. If you think that I am foolish enough to go back and review the stupidity displayed on the field to support my point then you are misjudging my tolerance for self-administered pain. I'll respectfully disagree with you and leave it at that. To put things in perspective on the Rex issue you and I are in accord. .

[The Big Cat]

Watching a Rex Ryan coached team last year was infuriating enough. If you think that I am foolish enough to go back and review the stupidity displayed on the field to support my point then you are misjudging my tolerance for self-administered pain. I'll respectfully disagree with you and leave it at that. To put things in perspective on the Rex issue you and I are in accord. .

If he honestly doesn't know then either a.) he's willfully ignored ALL the information that has circulated MANY media firms or b.) he knows jack about football.

 

Either way...

[JohnC]

If he honestly doesn't know then either a.) he's willfully ignored ALL the information that has circulated MANY media firms or b.) he knows jack about football.

 

Either way...

He knows plenty about football. On this one issue we just disagree. On the more encompassing issue on how Rex handled the defense our positions coincide.

[BADOLBILZ]

Apropos of my link above and Rex's performance this season, I'm starting to think that Rex could be the defensive version of Mike Martz -- massive early success with his system, an increasing belief in how ingenious he is, and declining results over time because (without being fully conscious of it) he has evolved into a pure system guy.

 

Martz is now in the TV booth.

 

 

 

The Martz comparison hits far too close to home.

 

As you put it during the season........there is a difference between utilizing tactics and implementing strategy.

[Nihilarian]

 

I don't know about the anonymous player being an offensive player. Mario implied that, but there were clues I think that implied it was a D player, probably a backup or bit player.

Frankly even Brown and McKelvins's defense seems apologist to me: "when you're 30 years old, it's kind of hard to start doing stuff you've never done" and "you're used to getting to the QB and now you're making sacrifices for someone else to get to the QB" is not exactly "the opposite", eh? Also, Ty Dunne claimed what he quoted was "the tip of the iceburg". But Nah, I'm not gonna go through and point out plays where I think Mario took off. For one thing, I'm not at the level some here are at interpreting D play.

 

My point was I watched Mario and I couldn't tell he took plays off or made less than 100% effort while on the field simply because of the scheme was playing in didn't allow him to do what he does best. I highly doubt there is a Bills fan or even a coach out there who could say anything about his performance because they don't know what his specific responsibilities were on a given play.

 

In Ryan's complex 3-4 scheme he could have as many as 5-7 different reads depending on what the offense is doing on a given play. To me, this in itself is a big hindrance to have a superstar pass rusher attempting to read a play and make adjustments on the fly instead of simply allowing him to do what he does best to rush the passer. Less thinking and more rushing because that is exactly why he was paid 100 million dollars... to rush the freaking passer.

 

Also, the bigger point is the coaches were very happy with him in their scheme and were content with him dropping into coverage so an average player at LBer could make a play.

 

I'm siding with the player on this simply because I've watched the man wreck havoc on the field as a pass-rushing defensive end in both Pettine's & Schwartz's schemes only to be castrated by this year's scheme. I feel his frustration that he was basically forced to go to the media to defend himself to the fans about how he was being used in Ryan's scheme.

 

It wasn't just him either as that #3 overall pick who is a raging man of hell on wheels who is mostly double teamed every defensive play has been outspoken about his role in Ryan's scheme since training camp.

 

Sure, take Buffalo Bills HoF DE Bruce Smith and ask him to drop into pass coverage or be a space eating, gap controlling DE so Ray Bentley could make the plays and then see if he remains silent all season about that situation.

[Coach Tuesday]

Everyone is talking about the front seven scheme. No one is talking about the back end. Again, I admittedly know less about X's and O's than many of you... but it seems to me that the critical component of Rex's defense is the secondary scheme, not the passrush. Schwartz let his CBs press. Rex, for reasons I don't understand, did not. In the 1st NE game, our corners were lined up 10 yards off of the ball and Brady ate us alive. This has nothing to do with Brandon Spikes or Mario dropping into coverage.

 

Can someone who is knowledgable please educate me? What am I missing?

[Nihilarian]

 

This IMHO is inarguable, and the heart of my frustration with Rex's D. Our DL was our strength, our LB I would characterize as "adequate in the right scheme". So Rex brought in a scheme that demanded adequate line play and star LB. I think Preston Brown can be a smart, solid player in the right scheme (he was last year) but covering vast ground and rushing the passer is NOT his strength.

Thank you for that because it looks like so few here seem to understand or even comprehend the circumstances of this past year's defensive situation.

 

It's also inarguable to me and yet here we are again because some Bills fans are so blindingly devoted to whatever scrub holds the current head coaching position that they refuse to acknowledge that he made superstar D-linemen look below average or even bad in his scheme. To go from 54 sacks down to 21 sacks is a travesty given the talent of that 2015 Buffalo Bills defensive line.

 

 

 

On another note, some Bills fans are saying that other Bills fans either ignored all the information from the media or he knows jack about football. Talk about ignoring information!! Has anyone seen the missing 33 sacks from 2015 and whatever could have happened to them?

 

This same person keeps bringing up the loss of LBer Brandon Spikes is a big reason as to why the defense wasn't as good in 2015...

 

Does he mean ILB Brandon Spikes, the guy who ran a 5.05 time at his pro day and was slower than a lot of offensive linemen... A guy who is best suited to play in a phone booth space as a middle linebacker in a 4-3 defense at stopping the run but was pulled on 3rd down at times because he was so slow in pass coverage. Yea, this is the guy Rex Ryan wants at linebacker in his defensive scheme...

[GunnerBill]

The Martz comparison hits far too close to home.

 

As you put it during the season........there is a difference between utilizing tactics and implementing strategy.

It does. A point I have made a few times since mid-season is that when I look around the league I don't see too many teams around the league running that Rex Ryan style of defense.

 

This year there were some similarities as you would expect with what the Saints were doing, with what the Browns were doing there is still some carry over in what Baltimore does and actually there was some similarities with what the then St Louis Rams were doing.

 

After that it is slim pickings.

[Manther]

 

They did, but what point are you trying to make here? If a certain role is critical and one player who fills it isn't available, successful teams either 1) change their scheme to use the players they have 2) find a player or players who fill that role elsewhere. Example: the Bills didn't succeed in signing the OLmen they targeted in FA, so they signed Incognito and drafted Miller in the 3rd. Tony Steward and AJ Tarpley may develop into something someday, but they weren't players you would expect to contribute this year especially in the Whaley "Linebacker U" model.

 

 

 

The second Patriots* game was good D. The second Patriots* game was what we expected to see during the first Patriots game, and the Giants game, and the Bengals game, and the Jaguars game.

So we didn't, Why? The offense the Pats* rolled out was nothing the league hasn't seen from them, nothing Rex hasn't seen from them, multiple times. So I ask you again, what point are you trying to make here? Rex is absolved as a coach because for Week 11 he made adjustments (then, frustratingly, that D seemed to disappear for the subsequent 4 games)?

 

Exactly, well said!

 

 

 

The Martz comparison hits far too close to home.

 

As you put it during the season........there is a difference between utilizing tactics and implementing strategy.

Wow! The Martz is Rex comparison is nuts on!! Never drew the comparison till it was mentioned.