Deranged Rhino Posted January 21, 2016 Author Posted January 21, 2016 The OP's video is quite possibly the most naive' presentation I've ever watched. His entire premise hinges on every person on the planet being absolutely equal. Everyone must look the same, think the same, experience the same life, etc. ANY variation and the model falls apart. I'm not endorsing this presentation, but playing Devil's Advocate I'd argue that's not really an accurate conclusion to draw. Tellinger's theory (which I agree with you is probably naive at best) if implemented would leave more room for individualization and creativity precisely because there's no more need to work in order to survive. People would then be free to pursue their own endeavors rather than having to focus all their energy on earning enough money to survive. This freedom would (theoretically) allow people the time and energy to make/learn/do whatever they wish. This results in diversity rather than uniformity. The idea is that once you reach that level of sustainability ( which again, I agree this is naive at best) you get more freedom than's possible under the capitalistic mindset of survival of the fittest. His theory would require the elimination of all barter, trade, and monetary systems and the mentality that comes with those things. This of course would result in something that to my knowledge has never been in existence in all of human history. And probably for good reason. Impossible? I can't say that... but calling it unlikely is probably being too kind. Though, as Dev and FC point out, if there's a legit free energy breakthrough or some sort of replicator technology (3-D printers of the future?) it could become a more realistic vision for society.
unbillievable Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 (edited) I'm not endorsing this presentation, but playing Devil's Advocate I'd argue that's not really an accurate conclusion to draw. Tellinger's theory (which I agree with you is probably naive at best) if implemented would leave more room for individualization and creativity precisely because there's no more need to work in order to survive. People would then be free to pursue their own endeavors rather than having to focus all their energy on earning enough money to survive. This freedom would (theoretically) allow people the time and energy to make/learn/do whatever they wish. This results in diversity rather than uniformity. His solution to achieving an unlimited resource economy is to work 3hrs a week to produce 3X as much goods by DE-specializing the workforce and doing only jobs you like. His first step to creating this labor force is to have every child become masters of every job by only learning from teachers chosen by popularity whose qualifications are awarded only when the community deems them worthy. He also states that people will miraculously become community oriented when money is abolished, to the point that he completely ignores answering his "obvious questions" about free-loaders, because all everyone really wants is a pat on the back. 1) work 3hrs a week. 2) ??? 3) unlimited resources! Of course if we live in a world with no scarcity of any kind we could do whatever we wanted... however, basing his entire philosophy on this premise is Idiotic. (putting aside his mistaken attribution of money to value) Ultimately, what he's really advocating is to make everything worthless by flooding every market, everywhere, with excessive quantities of every good, simultaneously. So when he figures out how to break the laws of time, space, and energy, we can seriously have a discussion on the merits of the absolute cultural uniformity he sees as a Utopia. I will re-state: One of the dumbest videos I have ever watched. PS. He did infer that we could also accomplish his dream by ceasing all interaction with other people. Independent self-replicating amoeba; able to function alone. Edited January 21, 2016 by unbillievable
unbillievable Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 (edited) Discovery of unlimited free energy or invention of a replicator would not get us closer. It will merely shift the value to another scarce resource. Also, you're making the same mistake of equating a monetary system with value. (banning the use of scales does not make a rock weightless) Even if we were to push the experiment to his endpoint, the new currency will still be TIME. Banks will trade your mandatory 3hrs of labor this week for 3hrs 10mins next week. Edited January 21, 2016 by unbillievable
/dev/null Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 This discussion is held at many sci-fi conventions and the consensus always returns to the fact that in order for Star Trek to sustain it's economic model, there must exist an unseen SLAVE class doing all work. (Which was addressed when Voyager showed the Doctor's hologram brethren working in dilithium mines.) http://capitalismmagazine.com/2002/08/franciscos-money-speech/ #photoniclivesmatter
Azalin Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 Well...the Fed is an agency of Starfleet... No, it's an agency of the United FEDeration of Planets. I thought you of all people would have known that.
keepthefaith Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 Money is just a form of establishing a value for something. You can abolish money when you devalue everything. Anything else is just another name for money. Not necessarily. Money organizes value. WIthout it we would have bartering. I'll take you to lunch if you wash my car and when we get to the restaurant, I pay with beans I grew in my back yard.
TakeYouToTasker Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 (edited) Not necessarily. Money organizes value. WIthout it we would have bartering. I'll take you to lunch if you wash my car and when we get to the restaurant, I pay with beans I grew in my back yard. Money is a marker for value, it's importance is that it's utility saves us an unfathomable amount of opportunity cost, as we don't have to spend time organizing incredibly complex strings of transactions in order to maximize our personal benefits related to the exchange of our labor. GG is right to say that in the absence of money, everything becomes money, because everything has value because of human need relative to supply. The natural limitations of resources, including labor, ensures value. And that's what makes the (*^*&%^$^#in the OP video so absurd. His entire philosophy relies an absence of scarcity of resources. Edited January 21, 2016 by TakeYouToTasker
GG Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 Money is a marker for value, it's importance is that it's utility saves us an unfathomable amount of opportunity cost, as we don't have to spend time organizing incredibly complex strings of transactions in order to maximize our personal benefits related to the exchange of our labor. GG is right to say that in the absence of money, everything becomes money, because everything has value because of human need relative to supply. The natural limitations of resources, including labor, ensures value. And that's what makes the (*^*&%^$^#in the OP video so absurd. His entire philosophy relies an absence of scarcity of resources. I thought it was a simple concept.
TakeYouToTasker Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 I thought it was a simple concept. I'm confident that it is.
DC Tom Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 No, it's an agency of the United FEDeration of Planets. I thought you of all people would have known that. Yeah, but the UFP is just a tool of the Starfleet-industrial complex, controlled behind the scenes by the Gorn.
Deranged Rhino Posted January 21, 2016 Author Posted January 21, 2016 His solution to achieving an unlimited resource economy is to work 3hrs a week to produce 3X as much goods by DE-specializing the workforce and doing only jobs you like. This issues you're harping on are from the example he walked through of how small towns and villages in Africa might lead the transition to this type of moneyless society. It's condensed for time and overly simplistic for the purposes of his lecture. His actual proposals are more in depth and fleshed out, there's a link to the paper in the lecture and on the YouTube page. Discovery of unlimited free energy or invention of a replicator would not get us closer. It will merely shift the value to another scarce resource. Also, you're making the same mistake of equating a monetary system with value. (banning the use of scales does not make a rock weightless) Even if we were to push the experiment to his endpoint, the new currency will still be TIME. Banks will trade your mandatory 3hrs of labor this week for 3hrs 10mins next week. The three hours of labor thing is for the transitional phase, not the final stages of what society would look like. Unlimited FREE energy would absolutely change the nature of our society in ways you cannot even imagine.
DC Tom Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 Unlimited FREE energy would absolutely change the nature of our society in ways you cannot even imagine. Not really. We've had that for most of humanity. Go outside and look up.
Deranged Rhino Posted January 21, 2016 Author Posted January 21, 2016 Though, probably not in the ways this video thinks.
TakeYouToTasker Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 Unlimited FREE energy would absolutely change the nature of our society in ways you cannot even imagine. There is not, nor will there ever be, such a thing as free unlimited energy; as there will always be labor, upkeep and maintenance, infrastructure, and harvesting costs associated. As Tom said, we do have such a resource: Just look up. Now consider why that energy isn't free to use.
Deranged Rhino Posted January 21, 2016 Author Posted January 21, 2016 There is not, nor will there ever be, such a thing as free unlimited energy; as there will always be labor, upkeep and maintenance, infrastructure, and harvesting costs associated. As Tom said, we do have such a resource: Just look up. Now consider why that energy isn't free to use. No argument.
Azalin Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 Yeah, but the UFP is just a tool of the Starfleet-industrial complex, controlled behind the scenes by the Gorn.
/dev/null Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 Unlimited FREE energy would absolutely change the nature of our society in ways you cannot even imagine. Put down the bong Giorgio
unbillievable Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 (edited) If you want to know what really happens if there is ever unlimited free energy: 1)Load Fallout 4 (or halo, etc -whichever shooter you are playing right now) 2)Enter the code for unlimited ammo. results: What usually happens to your game? Edited January 22, 2016 by unbillievable
Azalin Posted January 23, 2016 Posted January 23, 2016 If you want to know what really happens if there is ever unlimited free energy: 1)Load Fallout 4 (or halo, etc -whichever shooter you are playing right now) 2)Enter the code for unlimited ammo. results: What usually happens to your game? I play Halo. Unlimited anything won't change my game. I'll die quickly.
Deranged Rhino Posted January 23, 2016 Author Posted January 23, 2016 I play Halo. Unlimited anything won't change my game. I'll die quickly.
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