A treatise on a new stadium

[Jobu]

I'm surprised at how many fans seem to want an old stadium with limited amenities as long as it has cheap parking and low ticket prices. That doesn't sound like something a franchise committed to the highest quality and to a great fan experience would embrace.

 

I don't think anyone is advocating for that. In fact what I am advocating for is what the Packers did. If you had taken the time to read the article I linked, perhaps you would be a bit more enlightened to a different perspective. When I first went to Lambeau, it was a dump, with waffle tin exterior and cattle trough urinals. It is now nothing short of state of the art. They started with the worst stadium league and now have one of the best. They kept the history of the place in the process.

 

Recently, the Packers unveiled the latest upgrade to their classic stadium. This newest facelift cost $145 million, added approximately 7,000 seats and 30 new concession stands, and removed 3,800 names from the team’s famously lengthy season ticket waiting list. Today, quaint Lambeau Field is the NFL’s third-largest stadium in terms of seating capacity, having surpassed Jerry Jones’ prized hog — the $1.3 billion AT&T Stadium. In addition, the newly tricked-out arena has an upgraded sound system, new HD video boards, and a rooftop viewing system — amenities that would surely dazzle old-school gladiators like Ray Nitschke and might very well prompt Vince Lombardi to shout (gleefully this time), “What the hell is going on out here?!” Just as importantly, the project created 2,000 jobs and supported $70 million in wages, with 92% of the work going to Wisconsin companies.

Edited January 19, 2016 by Jobu

[Kirby Jackson]

 

I don't think anyone is advocating for that. In fact what I am advocating for is what the Packers did. If you had taken the time to read the article I linked, perhaps you would be a bit more enlightened to a different perspective. When I first went to Lambeau, it was a dump, with waffle tin exterior and cattle trough urinals. It is now nothing short of state of the art. They started with the worst stadium league and now have one of the best. They kept the history of the place in the process.

 

The Packers have something that the Bills don't have and that is about a bazillion person waiting list. They have leverage that the Bills don't in the situation that I presented earlier. They weren't in jeopardy of alienating a large part of their fan base because if they gave up their seats they would never get back.

 

I promise the situation that I raised is as primary an issue as anything. I've sat on that side of the table many times and can speak on behalf of the team thinking. Don't be fooled it is not something that they will publicly discuss for fear of bad PR but it is a REAL, REAL concern. How do you significantly raise prices in prime areas without a lot of attrition? You need a clean slate to do that.

[vincec]

 

I don't think anyone is advocating for that. In fact what I am advocating for is what the Packers did. If you had taken the time to read the article I linked, perhaps you would be a bit more enlightened to a different perspective. When I first went to Lambeau, it was a dump, with waffle tin exterior and cattle trough urinals. It is now nothing short of state of the art. They started with the worst stadium league and now have one of the best. They kept the history of the place in the process.

 

I read the article. I've never been to Lambeau so I can't speak directly of the before and after, but as an architect I can tell you that you that it is very, very unlikely that you will be able to get the same level of amenities in a renovation of RWS, which I have been to many times, as you will if you build a new stadium no matter what you spend. And whatever you could affordably do, I'm sure they did in the recent renovation. Anyone thinking that you can spend another $150m and get a near new stadium experience is deluded.

[TheFunPolice]

The Packers have something that the Bills don't have and that is about a bazillion person waiting list. They have leverage that the Bills don't in the situation that I presented earlier. They weren't in jeopardy of alienating a large part of their fan base because if they gave up their seats they would never get back.

 

I promise the situation that I raised is as primary an issue as anything. I've sat on that side of the table many times and can speak on behalf of the team thinking. Don't be fooled it is not something that they will publicly discuss for fear of bad PR but it is a REAL, REAL concern. How do you significantly raise prices in prime areas without a lot of attrition? You need a clean slate to do that.

 

This makes total sense, and I completely understand the concept. But isn't that a very expensive way to "clean the slate?"

 

How are the economics of that going to work here, in other words?

 

I am curious how much more can realistically be charged per ticket, and if that difference justifies the cost of a brand new stadium. Couldn't they retrofit the existing stadium to get amenities closer to the seats, with the idea that you would be paying more for your seats due to the upgrade in nearby concessions, restrooms, etc, along with a better overall experience?

 

The costs of these facilities are getting stupid, and if it is a roofed facility a billion dollars is probably in the neighborhood of what we're talking about. How is that ever going to make sense financially?

 

For the record, I'll be happy with whatever they do as long as they stay the Buffalo Bills!

Edited January 19, 2016 by TheFunPolice

[Kirby Jackson]

 

This makes total sense, and I completely understand the concept. But isn't that a very expensive way to "clean the slate?"

 

How are the economics of that going to work here, in other words?

 

I am curious how much more can realistically be charged per ticket, and if that difference justifies the cost of a brand new stadium. Couldn't they retrofit the existing stadium to get amenities closer to the seats, with the idea that you would be paying more for your seats due to the upgrade in nearby concessions, restrooms, etc, along with a better overall experience?

 

The costs of these facilities are getting stupid, and if it is a roofed facility a billion dollars is probably in the neighborhood of what we're talking about. How is that ever going to make sense financially?

 

For the record, I'll be happy with whatever they do as long as they stay the Buffalo Bills!

The retrofit can't work because of the sense of ownership that people have over their location. They have been sitting in the same place, by the same people, going in the same gate, etc.. for years. People don't downgrade. The tickets that are $1000 now for the year will probably increase 2 to 3x I would guess (strictly a guess).

 

I am saying that it is a huge factor in retrofit vs. new stadium. It going to be expensive any way that you look at it. The retrofit in KC was $375M and a new stadium is probably $1B. It opens up many alternative revenue streams as well though. There will be lots of considerations. The Bills will try to get a bigger chunk of the pie regardless.

Edited January 20, 2016 by Kirby Jackson

[Mango]

Yes.. I believe BBF is right. Pegs would be copacetic to tailgating.

 

But this stadium would likely be built with public money. So the nanny state politicians and "preservationists" will have their say. They'll get their panties all in a knot about tail gating.

 

The recent Youtube videos of tailgating Bills fans being complete Bevis/Buttheads to the power of 10, doesn't help.

 

Context: it looks like last call will change from 4 AM to 2 AM even though the 4 AM closing has not been proven a problem--that's what NY pols do--change stuff for change sake to make a campaign talking point.

 

2 AM closing will just drive drinking underground unsupervised.

 

Oh.. and all the lost tax revenue and payroll for shaving 14 hours off the weekly cash register and payroll... really?

 

I apologize. You didn't intend to hit a raw nerve and cue a rant. Try the first three sentences, then stop reading.

The question is, when will Jims close?

[Jobu]

I read the article. I've never been to Lambeau so I can't speak directly of the before and after, but as an architect I can tell you that you that it is very, very unlikely that you will be able to get the same level of amenities in a renovation of RWS, which I have been to many times, as you will if you build a new stadium no matter what you spend. And whatever you could affordably do, I'm sure they did in the recent renovation. Anyone thinking that you can spend another $150m and get a near new stadium experience is deluded.

 

No, I don't think you read the article. If you did you have comprehension issues. Anyone thinking the Packers only spent 150 million dollars to get a state of the art stadium is deluded. They have spent well over 600 million since the 2000 Brown county referendum.

 

http://www.ibmadison.com/In-Business-Madison/August-2013/A-brief-history-of-Lambeau-Field-renovations/

[May Day 10]

The Packers have something that the Bills don't have and that is about a bazillion person waiting list. They have leverage that the Bills don't in the situation that I presented earlier. They weren't in jeopardy of alienating a large part of their fan base because if they gave up their seats they would never get back.

 

I promise the situation that I raised is as primary an issue as anything. I've sat on that side of the table many times and can speak on behalf of the team thinking. Don't be fooled it is not something that they will publicly discuss for fear of bad PR but it is a REAL, REAL concern. How do you significantly raise prices in prime areas without a lot of attrition? You need a clean slate to do that.

 

If the Bills had a few decent years, I am positive the waiting list would be pretty solid and the Bills would have the ability to raise prices steadily. We are talking a team who hasn't made the playoffs in 16 years and haven't won a playoff game in nearly 20. The Packers have had more than 20 playoff games since we have had one. The Bills haven't hosted a playoff game since I was 18 years old. I'm getting towards 40 years old now. Not only that, we have had one meaningful game in the last week of the season. I also don't want to hear nonsense about December ticket sales in 1992. You know its a completely different animal now with both the NFL and the ticket industry. You just create the perpetual demand and ticket prices can be raised almost indefinitely. The Sabres are proof of this. Couldnt even sell out games in the 89-94-ish era with great teams in the small Aud. I think the Packers also are a beneficiary of playing in a very small venue (by NFL standards) for so long.

 

To just think that the people here in WNY and Southern Ontario will fork over more for amenities and everything will be fixed is a mistake. A competitive team is the most important amenity here.

 

At least hopefully we can see the effect a competitive team can have before any major decisions need to be made and we throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

If the Bills had a few decent years, I am positive the waiting list would be pretty solid and the Bills would have the ability to raise prices steadily. We are talking a team who hasn't made the playoffs in 16 years and haven't won a playoff game in nearly 20. The Packers have had more than 20 playoff games since we have had one. The Bills haven't hosted a playoff game since I was 18 years old. I'm getting towards 40 years old now. Not only that, we have had one meaningful game in the last week of the season. I also don't want to hear nonsense about December ticket sales in 1992. You know its a completely different animal now with both the NFL and the ticket industry. You just create the perpetual demand and ticket prices can be raised almost indefinitely. The Sabres are proof of this. Couldnt even sell out games in the 89-94-ish era with great teams in the small Aud. I think the Packers also are a beneficiary of playing in a very small venue (by NFL standards) for so long.

 

To just think that the people here in WNY and Southern Ontario will fork over more for amenities and everything will be fixed is a mistake. A competitive team is the most important amenity here.

 

At least hopefully we can see the effect a competitive team can have before any major decisions need to be made and we throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Always, but you show me a team that relies on wins and losses to sell and I will show you one of the worst business operations in sports. The job of those people is the exact opposite of that. You need to insulate yourself from the product on the field/court/ice. EVERYONE can sell a team that wins. The talented groups can still fill the stands and grow their corporate sponsorships when the team isn't winning.

 

I've been out of the business for about 5 years so I am sure that a lot has changed. With that being said if I was appointed as VP of Sales for the Golden State Warriors tomorrow I promise that the building will be full every night. I do not need to be up on new strategies, creative angles, new added benefits, etc... I simply need to send out invoices.

Edited January 19, 2016 by Kirby Jackson

[John from Riverside]

i saw Terry leaving his trailer in his pick-up this morning.. had his drilling equipment with him.. won't be long.

LOL

[Homey D. Clown]

I wouldn't be in such a hurry to want the new stadium. It's going to be downtown and tailgating will be a shell of what it is now. Also higher ticket prices and more traffic. I think we need to enjoy the Ralph while we can

 

 

I would trade in the current tailgating experience for a downtown street-fest any day. If they make it like the Italian festival every Sunday, I'd rather do that in a heartbeat. the drunken morons have completely taken the parking lots over in my last visit to the Ralph, which is what I saw at an alarming rate.... people "ralphing" everywhere.

[boater]

 

 

I would trade in the current tailgating experience for a downtown street-fest any day. If they make it like the Italian festival every Sunday, I'd rather do that in a heartbeat. the drunken morons have completely taken the parking lots over in my last visit to the Ralph, which is what I saw at an alarming rate.... people "ralphing" everywhere.

A food truck lot!

[vincec]

 

No, I don't think you read the article. If you did you have comprehension issues. Anyone thinking the Packers only spent 150 million dollars to get a state of the art stadium is deluded. They have spent well over 600 million since the 2000 Brown county referendum.

 

http://www.ibmadison.com/In-Business-Madison/August-2013/A-brief-history-of-Lambeau-Field-renovations/

I think that you are the one with comprehension issues. Why don't you read my comments and try again.

[SoulMan]

Concur!

 

And I pray to be here in 2025.

Well I pray you are too Boat !!

[Hammered a Lot]

Sign me up to pay the premium!

You might want to get tickets to the Atlanta Falcions! Even with a economy better than Buffalo/WNY area their customer base is resisting the PSL's. Out of 71,000 PSL's only 23,358 non club and 4,259 club have been sold. Kirby, Arthur needs you!

[Kirby Jackson]

You might want to get tickets to the Atlanta Falcions! Even with a economy better than Buffalo/WNY area their customer base is resisting the PSL's. Out of 71,000 PSL's only 23,358 non club and 4,259 club have been sold. Kirby, Arthur needs you!

What a mess!! The PSL's are going to be a brutal sale in LA as well. Once the brokers started bailing on them it really killed that avenue. There are specific brokers that own 2,500+ ST in certain venues. That's kind of the seedy underbelly that no one wants to reveal. Often times they just sit down with the person in charge of ticket sales and negotiate a deal meeting both parties objectives. The team tries to get them to take harder to move inventory in exchange for discounted rates and prime inventory.

 

Atlanta is a mess as a market as well. All of those transient cities (sorry Augie) have a hard time. People in Atlanta often grew up elsewhere and have other allegiances. It's like when you watch a Tampa Bay Rays game. It takes a generation plus to really establish those types of fan bases in most places. You are starting to see it in Charlotte (a lot of band wagoners too), but they are a growing fan base. Atlanta is a bit of an anomaly and always has been. The Braves couldn't sell out the World Series, the Falcons and Hawks have always struggled and the Thrashers moved. I don't that Atlanta will ever be "hooked" on any of their teams. If they couldn't jump in on the 1990's Braves I don't know what it would take to win them over. It's an odd market

Edited January 22, 2016 by Kirby Jackson

[CountDorkula]

 

 

I would trade in the current tailgating experience for a downtown street-fest any day. If they make it like the Italian festival every Sunday, I'd rather do that in a heartbeat. the drunken morons have completely taken the parking lots over in my last visit to the Ralph, which is what I saw at an alarming rate.... people "ralphing" everywhere.

 

Being out of town, i get "Made fun of" because I am a Bills fan. Not because of the team I root for, but because of "Why are they such drunken idiots"

 

During the season I would get emails daily asking. "Is this normal in Buffalo?"

 

People may think its "only a few people doing it"

 

But the reputation has grown more than you think.

 

The tailgating experience will change. Regardless of a New stadium or not.

What a mess!! The PSL's are going to be a brutal sale in LA as well. Once the brokers started bailing on them it really killed that avenue. There are specific brokers that own 2,500+ ST in certain venues. That's kind of the seedy underbelly that no one wants to reveal. Often times they just sit down with the person in charge of ticket sales and negotiate a deal meeting both parties objectives. The team tries to get them to take harder to move inventory in exchange for discounted rates and prime inventory.

 

Atlanta is a mess as a market as well. All of those transient cities (sorry Augie) have a hard time. People in Atlanta often grew up elsewhere and have other allegiances. It's like when you watch a Tampa Bay Rays game. It takes a generation plus to really establish those types of fan bases in most places. You are starting to see it in Charlotte (a lot of band wagoners too), but they are a growing fan base. Atlanta is a bit of an anomaly and always has been. The Braves couldn't sell out the World Series, the Falcons and Haeks have always struggled and the Thrashers moved. I don't that Atlanta will ever be "hooked" on any of their teams. If they couldn't jump in on the 1990's Braves I don't know what it would take to win them over. It's an odd market

 

Bingo. In terms of Atlanta/GA sports, The Falcons rank very low. The Atlanta market is anything but traditional.

 

In terms of success popularity:

1) GA Bulldogs

2) Atlanta Braves

3) Any other SEC football team

4) GA Tech Jackets

5) Atlanta Falcons

6) Atlanta Hawks

 

Not to mention most fans hate Arthur Blank and his talking GM head.

[dwight in philly]

 

 

I would trade in the current tailgating experience for a downtown street-fest any day. If they make it like the Italian festival every Sunday, I'd rather do that in a heartbeat. the drunken morons have completely taken the parking lots over in my last visit to the Ralph, which is what I saw at an alarming rate.... people "ralphing" everywhere.

nobody likes the "drunken morons" as you say, but like the saying goes, a few wreck it for everyone. the reason it gets the attention now is obviously social media. in the 70's it was no different, just didnt hear about it.. the rep that tailgating has at the ralph is very high, if not the best.

[PromoTheRobot]

The Ralph is paid for.

 

I ran the numbers. A low estimate for the LA stadium is 1.4 billion.

 

I used a mortgage calculator (I know not the best tool for this but it's all I had):

• 1.4 billion
• 3.92% interest
• 20 years
• Monthly payment came out to 8.4 million

In the unlikely event that 8.4 mil can be found, I'd rather it be spent on something else.

 

I don't see a new stadium.** They couldn't build a signature Peace Bridge because environmentalist said "endangered birds" will fly into the suspension wires and die. They couldn't even agree to a non-signature bridge.

 

** unless Pegs built it on his own, I think that is unlikely

Why is it unlikely TPegs will pay for his own barn? I think it's very likely, with the state chipping in for infrastructure.

[Hammered a Lot]

Why is it unlikely TPegs will pay for his own barn? I think it's very likely, with the state chipping in for infrastructure.

Cuomo said no state money but that could change.