todd Posted February 5, 2016 Posted February 5, 2016 This is getting sad. The guy needs help before he gets more self-destructive. I don't like to see anyone spiraling downwards the way this guy is. He's probably in quite a bit of emotional/psychological pain. Still don't want him as a Buffalo Bill, tho. Not sure there's anyone left who would.
atlbillsfan1975 Posted February 5, 2016 Posted February 5, 2016 And this is the perfect example of a situation where the league could proactively step in and provide support and stability to help a player/former player. It wouldn't take much, and would be great PR at the price. But will they? Of course not. what would you have the league do? Manziel has refused treatment. The best thing to do at this point is leave Manziel alone or have him committed if his father really feels Johnny is a danger to himself. Anyone fighting addiction has to come to the conclusion they need help. You can not force it on them.
aristocrat Posted February 5, 2016 Posted February 5, 2016 And this is the perfect example of a situation where the league could proactively step in and provide support and stability to help a player/former player. It wouldn't take much, and would be great PR at the price. But will they? Of course not. what can the league do? His family tried to put him in rehab and they have the resources to handle it. Johnny is an adult and obviously out of control but you can't force the guy into a program.
H2o Posted February 5, 2016 Posted February 5, 2016 Anyone fighting addiction has to come to the conclusion they need help. You can not force it on them. ^^^^^THIS^^^^^ And not only realize they need it, but actually want it.
K-9 Posted February 5, 2016 Posted February 5, 2016 And this is the perfect example of a situation where the league could proactively step in and provide support and stability to help a player/former player. It wouldn't take much, and would be great PR at the price. But will they? Of course not. Agreed. I would add the NFLPA as well.
boater Posted February 5, 2016 Posted February 5, 2016 And this is the perfect example of a situation where the league could proactively step in and provide support and stability to help a player/former player. It wouldn't take much, and would be great PR at the price. But will they? Of course not. As HR staff (recovering), I've dealt with Manziel types in the past, including trying to save them. 9 out of 10 cases ended miserably. If stepping proactively worked, there would be no heroin epidemic now. Having said that: step in proactively at ALL TIMES.
NoSaint Posted February 5, 2016 Posted February 5, 2016 im not sure what the league can really do here from the perspective of those advocating they proactively step in..... id venture that hes had and will continue to have chats where they advise him that he will face consequence for his behavior, but otherwise what can they do?
The Dog Posted February 5, 2016 Posted February 5, 2016 No way too much of a queen, in both respects I think, that is why he is not nailing Olivia Culpa.
DC Tom Posted February 5, 2016 Posted February 5, 2016 Anyone fighting addiction has to come to the conclusion they need help. You can not force it on them. Key question, though: is he fighting addiction, or is he fighting a mental illness? It's an important distinction. If he's got an affective disorder, his addiction is much more likely along the lines of self-medication, and not the root problem as much as a symptom. Fact is, we here don't really know. We're spitballing. I know I interpret the recent stories about him as mental illness, for two reasons: 1) personal bias, as I have so much experience with it, and 2) objective evidence, in that suicidal ideation and action indicates an underlying affective disorder in greater than 95% of all cases of suicidal ideation. But even then, you can't force help on someone who doesn't want it. You can provide them a support system, though. You can let them know that they have people backing them until and after they realize they need help. Hell, just providing constructive social contact would be a big help. Or providing resources he could use - not uncommonly, a big impediment to getting help is simply not knowing what help is available, or being too embarrassed to seek out that help on your own. Frankly, the last is probably the smartest thing the NFL (and NFLPA) could do: make psychological counseling available to him, as a kickoff to a greater league-wide program of availability, just to send the message that it's okay and not a sign of weakness to get help. As someone who is bipolar and has been suicidal, I can testify first-hand that just the knowledge that support is available can make a difference. (And yes, I know addiction is a mental illness. I ignored that only for the sake of the above discussion. Don't feel compelled to explain it to me.)
Hapless Bills Fan Posted February 5, 2016 Posted February 5, 2016 what would you have the league do? Manziel has refused treatment. The best thing to do at this point is leave Manziel alone or have him committed if his father really feels Johnny is a danger to himself. Anyone fighting addiction has to come to the conclusion they need help. You can not force it on them. In this day and age, the options for involuntary committment are very limited. This stems from the day when it was all too easy to commit a spouse or child who was simply a bit odd or embarrassing, into a massive state mental warehouse rife with invasive treatments, and difficult for them to prove they didn't belong. TEX. HEALTH & SAFETY CODE ANN. § 574.034. Order for Temporary Mental Health Services. (a) The judge may order a proposed patient to receive court-ordered temporary inpatient mental health services only if the judge or jury finds, from clear and convincing evidence, that: (1) the proposed patient is mentally ill; and (2) as a result of that mental illness the proposed patient: (A) is likely to cause serious harm to himself; (B) is likely to cause serious harm to others; or © is: (i) suffering severe and abnormal mental, emotional, or physical distress; (ii) experiencing substantial mental or physical deterioration of the proposed patient's ability to function independently, which is exhibited by the proposed patient's inability, except for reasons of indigence, to provide for the proposed patient's basic needs, including food, clothing, health, or safety; and (iii) unable to make a rational and informed decision as to whether or not to submit to treatment. "Likely to cause serious harm" is usually interpreted rather narrowly as "imminent serious harm". Basically, as long as JM is able to appear reasonably calm and coherent in front of a judge, bathes and dresses himself, is considered capable of eating and drinking, doesn't piss or poop in inappropriate places or wank off in public, there are unlikely to be grounds found for involuntary committment and if he was committed during a wild phase, he'd be held for 24-72 hrs and then if he'd sobered up and was able to appear reasonably calm and coherent, out he'd go. Key question, though: is he fighting addiction, or is he fighting a mental illness? It's an important distinction. If he's got an affective disorder, his addiction is much more likely along the lines of self-medication, and not the root problem as much as a symptom. Wouldn't evaluation for mental illness be part of the rehab/counseling he went to last year and was reportedly recommended to this year by the Browns and his family, and refused? It's really hard to evaluate an addict for mental illness until/unless they sober up for a period of time.
K-9 Posted February 5, 2016 Posted February 5, 2016 Key question, though: is he fighting addiction, or is he fighting a mental illness? It's an important distinction. If he's got an affective disorder, his addiction is much more likely along the lines of self-medication, and not the root problem as much as a symptom. Fact is, we here don't really know. We're spitballing. I know I interpret the recent stories about him as mental illness, for two reasons: 1) personal bias, as I have so much experience with it, and 2) objective evidence, in that suicidal ideation and action indicates an underlying affective disorder in greater than 95% of all cases of suicidal ideation. But even then, you can't force help on someone who doesn't want it. You can provide them a support system, though. You can let them know that they have people backing them until and after they realize they need help. Hell, just providing constructive social contact would be a big help. Or providing resources he could use - not uncommonly, a big impediment to getting help is simply not knowing what help is available, or being too embarrassed to seek out that help on your own. Frankly, the last is probably the smartest thing the NFL (and NFLPA) could do: make psychological counseling available to him, as a kickoff to a greater league-wide program of availability, just to send the message that it's okay and not a sign of weakness to get help. As someone who is bipolar and has been suicidal, I can testify first-hand that just the knowledge that support is available can make a difference. (And yes, I know addiction is a mental illness. I ignored that only for the sake of the above discussion. Don't feel compelled to explain it to me.) Great insight here. Much appreciated.
DC Tom Posted February 5, 2016 Posted February 5, 2016 In this day and age, the options for involuntary committment are very limited. This stems from the day when it was all too easy to commit a spouse or child who was simply a bit odd or embarrassing, into a massive state mental warehouse rife with invasive treatments, and difficult for them to prove they didn't belong. TEX. HEALTH & SAFETY CODE ANN. § 574.034. Order for Temporary Mental Health Services. (a) The judge may order a proposed patient to receive court-ordered temporary inpatient mental health services only if the judge or jury finds, from clear and convincing evidence, that: (1) the proposed patient is mentally ill; and (2) as a result of that mental illness the proposed patient: (A) is likely to cause serious harm to himself; (B) is likely to cause serious harm to others; or © is: (i) suffering severe and abnormal mental, emotional, or physical distress; (ii) experiencing substantial mental or physical deterioration of the proposed patient's ability to function independently, which is exhibited by the proposed patient's inability, except for reasons of indigence, to provide for the proposed patient's basic needs, including food, clothing, health, or safety; and (iii) unable to make a rational and informed decision as to whether or not to submit to treatment. "Likely to cause serious harm" is usually interpreted rather narrowly as "imminent serious harm". Basically, as long as JM is able to appear reasonably calm and coherent in front of a judge, bathes and dresses himself, is considered capable of eating and drinking, doesn't piss or poop in inappropriate places or wank off in public, there are unlikely to be grounds found for involuntary committment and if he was committed during a wild phase, he'd be held for 24-72 hrs and then if he'd sobered up and was able to appear reasonably calm and coherent, out he'd go. If he made a serious threat to harm himself or others, a 72-hour psych hold is usually pretty easy to get (as I recall, you don't even need a judge, just a doctor). Anything longer...it pretty much involves the family going to court, having the person declared incompetent, and getting a power of attorney over them. Involuntary commitment otherwise is nearly impossible, as far as I know. Wouldn't evaluation for mental illness be part of the rehab/counseling he went to last year and was reportedly recommended to this year by the Browns and his family, and refused? It's really hard to evaluate an addict for mental illness until/unless they sober up for a period of time. I don't know if that evaluation would be part of rehab or not. I have no direct experience with substance abuse, but anecdotally I believe it's more often not done than is.
YoloinOhio Posted February 5, 2016 Posted February 5, 2016 @rapsheet Jimmy Haslam tells us he has tried to reach out to Johnny Manziel several times and got no response. He appeared frustrated, emotional.
YoloinOhio Posted February 5, 2016 Posted February 5, 2016 Judge has signed protective order to keep him away from the girlfriend for 2 years http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2016/2/4/10919490/johnny-manziel-threat-arrest-police-girlfriend-browns
26CornerBlitz Posted February 5, 2016 Posted February 5, 2016 @Mathieu_Era Johnny should hit me up.. It ain't easy but it's worth it bra! Ryan Leaf on Johnny Manziel: It's like a mirrorFormer NFL quarterback Ryan Leaf says he's reached out to Johnny Manziel's former agent to offer help.
NoSaint Posted February 5, 2016 Posted February 5, 2016 Judge has signed protective order to keep him away from the girlfriend for 2 years http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2016/2/4/10919490/johnny-manziel-threat-arrest-police-girlfriend-browns which happens first - the paperwork on his release, or him violating the order?
Hapless Bills Fan Posted February 5, 2016 Posted February 5, 2016 (edited) As I mentioned the Browns had concerns about the girlfriend being in Cleveland this season (last season she was in Texas). I can't remember who told me that but she's not good for him (and looks like he's not good for her). Unfortunately I don't know if manziel's family is taking an active role in his life to force him to make positive changes - the previous history we know of how his parents dealt with him before points to that not being the case. Pettine was probably the one person who ever held him accountable for anything. Well, even putting her statement in the best possible light she's clearly got her own issues. She sounds like a party chick, which I assume is one of the attractions. I'm curious, though, in what way you feel Manziel's family could "force" him to make changes at this point? He's over 21 and financially independent, right? The only thing I think they could do at this point would be to try to win a 72 hr involuntary commitment for psych evaluation, and that's not necessarily a positive thing for them to do as it places the family in an adversarial position and can "burn bridges" to any emotional support and trust between him and his family. Even before he became an adult - as the friend of a guy with a former problem teen, the options can be scarily limited and worse if the kid has any way of getting their hands on money (which, in the case of a college football star, is guaranteed from program supporters and hangers-on who want some reflected light). I mean, yeah, from some of the articles that were out there the family wasn't very grounded or able to set limits and provide positive discipline and anger management skills as he was growing up, but that's all in the rear view mirror, that ship has sailed now he's "of age" and has signing bonus and salary in bank account. @Mathieu_Era Johnny should hit me up.. It ain't easy but it's worth it bra! Ryan Leaf on Johnny Manziel: It's like a mirror When Ryan Leaf says "you remind me of me", you got troubles. I don't know if that evaluation would be part of rehab or not. I have no direct experience with substance abuse, but anecdotally I believe it's more often not done than is. It really should be part of a competent program, which should have been the sort the Browns referred him to after their "intervention". You're correct that it's more often not done than is, but that's because, cut-rate low-budget minimum spend. Edited February 5, 2016 by Hopeful
DC Tom Posted February 5, 2016 Posted February 5, 2016 It really should be part of a competent program, which should have been the sort the Browns referred him to after their "intervention". You're correct that it's more often not done than is, but that's because, cut-rate low-budget minimum spend. I shall mercilessly and effectively torpedo your argument by simply pointing out that you used "competent" and "Browns" in the same sentence.
aristocrat Posted February 5, 2016 Posted February 5, 2016 I don't think he ever plays in the NFL again. Gonna be suspended next year and I doubt this is the last time he's in contact with the cops.
26CornerBlitz Posted February 5, 2016 Posted February 5, 2016 Manziel's father: Johnny won't live to see 24 unless he gets help Johnny Manziel's father said his son has refused to enter treatment twice in the last week.
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