Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 100%, give the Bills fans who are conditioned by Ralph's penny pinching a few seasons to get used to this idea and they'll come around. The modern NFL cap is about keeping flexibility, which the Bills have plenty of despite the fear mongering / pining for Greenbay Executives going on in this thread. The cap is going up 10 million, they're freeing up 13 with Mario, another 4 with Leodis, probably another 5-6 by restructuring Clay's wonky cap number... that's close to 30 million right there. Deranged, has the cap increase of $10M been officially announced somewhere? I suppose what's bugging me is that I really don't want to see Mario go and $7M of dead money get added to our hit when he was so productive in his first years here. But if the coaches view the film and it's true that he wasn't "All In", that, coupled to his vocal complaints and his cap hit, means it's time for him to go. I just hope that Whaley and Rex have true honesty now about what Rex needs to make his D successful and not this "work with any player" BS. The spotty nature of its success (in a PPG perspective) seems to indicate it does need special ingredients. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynBills Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 Thanks Brooklyn , now I understand the June 1 It took me a little research. The NFL salary cap is so convoluted, I feel like there is a new cap thing I figure out every offseason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkyMannn Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 Ugh, 158 million. I'm liking our chances next year less and less. Even with cutting Mario, there will be a lot of players not signed and probably some more deep cuts. I didn't realize the cap situation was this bad. What's the cap expected to be next season? All of a sudden this guy's post from the other day and his cap and contract comments look pretty real. Double UGH http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/184321-the-glass-half-empty-report/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
machine gun kelly Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 How are the Bills so bad at cap management when until this year we have been significantly under the cap each year. Whaley had two less draft picks so he went with Pegula's permission bought some top offensive talent. Other than one poster, McCoy has been a success, so has Clay, Incognito, and Harvin was a good bet that didn't end up in costing us that much money. Had to pay the going rate for an elite DT in Dareus as he is a top 4 DT in the NFL. We did not over pay for Kyle Williams nor did we for Hughes. Mario has not been worth it so we're dumping him and spending it on resigning our talent before they walk. This is a good plan. We need to upgrade in our draft, which is what the good teams do and do not overspend in free agency. Look for maybe a couple of role players we don't over pay to fit Rex's defense. I can be very critical of the Bills at times, but not in this area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That's No Moon Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 This off-season may be the 1st time in many years we are tight against the cap, so explain the bolded part, please To me "managing the cap" doesn't necessarily mean staying under it. It means using it and it's rules to your maximum benefit on a consistent basis. From that standpoint we've been terrible with the cap for a long time. Good teams are usually right up close to the cap every year and have the means and acumen to juggle what needs to be juggled, move money around in the cap shell game, and stay competitive. It's a rare team that is truly competitive AND a ton under the cap on a regular basis. The Eagles did it for years but frankly if they'd used a little more of their cap space they might have gotten themselves over the hump to a SB title. They were always lacking in at least one area when they had the means to fix it, just not the will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 Deranged, has the cap increase of $10M been officially announced somewhere? I suppose what's bugging me is that I really don't want to see Mario go and $7M of dead money get added to our hit when he was so productive in his first years here. But if the coaches view the film and it's true that he wasn't "All In", that, coupled to his vocal complaints and his cap hit, means it's time for him to go. I just hope that Whaley and Rex have true honesty now about what Rex needs to make his D successful and not this "work with any player" BS. The spotty nature of its success (in a PPG perspective) seems to indicate it does need special ingredients. I'll find a link: (searching before work so I had to be fast, here's one about the Colts and the cap from December: http://www.stampedeblue.com/2015/12/3/9842782/2016-nfl-salary-cap-with-salary-cap-expected-to-increase-what-is-the-colts-cap-situation) This projects it to go up to 155 million, I've also read it closer to 160, so split the difference. The amount the cap is increasing has not been announced but it's going to go up (as it has the past few years thanks to the TV deals). The cap will keep going up in future as well, perhaps by more than 10 million once the new TV deals are reached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 (edited) Deranged, has the cap increase of $10M been officially announced somewhere? I suppose what's bugging me is that I really don't want to see Mario go and $7M of dead money get added to our hit when he was so productive in his first years here. But if the coaches view the film and it's true that he wasn't "All In", that, coupled to his vocal complaints and his cap hit, means it's time for him to go. I just hope that Whaley and Rex have true honesty now about what Rex needs to make his D successful and not this "work with any player" BS. The spotty nature of its success (in a PPG perspective) seems to indicate it does need special ingredients. The base cap for 2015 was $143.28M. The 2016 cap hasn't been determined yet, but all of the quality sources for estimates are in the $150M-$154M range. The Bills will gain $7.5M in 2016 from converting Clay's roster bonus to a signing bonus. Cutting Mario yields another $12.9M. Gillmore's number would reduce if signed to a long term deal. They'll have $5M or so in carryover. It's not hopeless, but they've got some expensive players hitting FA and other needs - Glenn, Incognito, Bradham, a QB(s) besides Taylor, Mario's replacement, WR( Harvin won't be back), etc. They won't be cheap to keep or replace and only so much can be done with draft picks. I'd include the Bills on a list of worst cap management in the league right now. They aren't the Saints or the Dolphins, but they aren't in good shape and they've made some poor decisions with their space. When you're dumping guys like Mario for the space, but have signed guys like Clay to big deals you've got issues. The Bills already made some decisions about who stays and who goes when they inked the Clay, Shady, Harvin and Hughes deals. Now we see if they can navigate through some very rough waters. Edited January 7, 2016 by BarleyNY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALF Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 (edited) Dec 5 est $150-$153.4 M http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/12/05/nfl-salary-cap-will-rise-above-150-million-in-2016/ Edited January 7, 2016 by ALF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 The base cap for 2015 was $143.28M. The 2016 cap hasn't been determined yet, but all of the quality sources for estimates are in the $150M-$154M range. The Bills will gain $7.5M in 2016 from converting Clay's roster bonus to a signing bonus. Cutting Mario yields another $12.9M. Gillmore's number would reduce if signed to a long term deal. They've got some expensive players hitting FA and needs though - Glenn, Incognito, Bradham, a QB(s) besides Taylor, Mario's replacement, WR(s), etc. They won't be cheap to keep or replace and only so much can be done with draft picks. I'd include the Bills on a list of worst cap management in the league right now. They aren't the Saints or the Dolphins, but they aren't in good shape and they've made some poor decisions with their space. When you're dumping guys like Mario for the space, but have signed guys like Clay to big deals you've got issues. The Bills already made some decisions about who stays and who goes when they inked the Clay, Shady, Harvin and Hughes deals. Now we see if they can navigate through some very rough waters. I don't expect RI to be an expensive deal, and Glenn might come at a bit of a discount. Plus, if they extend Gilmore they'll lower his 16 cap number by a lot, giving the team more room. There's lots of ways for the Bills to maneuver the cap without gutting the roster. Bradham might not be back (and I like him) but otherwise I expect them to retain the guys they really want (Glenn, RI, extend Gilmore, restructure Clay). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonborn10 Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 If the Bills are talking about cap issues and don't have a franchise QB as the highest paid player on the team, then they are bad at managing the cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 If the Bills are talking about cap issues and don't have a franchise QB as the highest paid player on the team, then they are bad at managing the cap. They aren't They have said, however, that they won't go crazy spending in FA, which makes sense. May as well save future cap space for a QB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 If the Bills are talking about cap issues and don't have a franchise QB as the highest paid player on the team, then they are bad at managing the cap. That's certainly a big part of it. You also have to take issue with them going all out spending without a realistic chance at a title. Not having a franchise QB is also part of that (obviously). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 That's certainly a big part of it. You also have to take issue with them going all out spending without a realistic chance at a title. Not having a franchise QB is also part of that (obviously). This is where we disagree. Every team will spend right up to the cap but for the teams who are completely and utterly rebuilding -- the Bills don't fall into that category. Being cheap with the roster is not something we will see in Buffalo under the Pegulas, those days are gone. I'm not advocating being irresponsible with the cap, but because of how flexible and fluid non guaranteed contracts are in this league, it's really difficult to get into cap jail when you have an owner willing to spend. Almost impossible, you just do not see it happening anymore in the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynBills Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 That's certainly a big part of it. You also have to take issue with them going all out spending without a realistic chance at a title. Not having a franchise QB is also part of that (obviously). Part of the problem is that they needed to go out and sign Mario because of serious lack of developing any pass rushers on their own at the time that they signed him. Same with Clay. The Bills had so neglected any kind of development of a TE that they needed to go out and overpay for Charles Clay. Now releasing Mario will help get them back into shape, but restructuring Clay will still put him as one the top 3-4 cap numbers for a TE in the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nucci Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 The base cap for 2015 was $143.28M. The 2016 cap hasn't been determined yet, but all of the quality sources for estimates are in the $150M-$154M range. The Bills will gain $7.5M in 2016 from converting Clay's roster bonus to a signing bonus. Cutting Mario yields another $12.9M. Gillmore's number would reduce if signed to a long term deal. They'll have $5M or so in carryover. It's not hopeless, but they've got some expensive players hitting FA and other needs - Glenn, Incognito, Bradham, a QB(s) besides Taylor, Mario's replacement, WR( Harvin won't be back), etc. They won't be cheap to keep or replace and only so much can be done with draft picks. I'd include the Bills on a list of worst cap management in the league right now. They aren't the Saints or the Dolphins, but they aren't in good shape and they've made some poor decisions with their space. When you're dumping guys like Mario for the space, but have signed guys like Clay to big deals you've got issues. The Bills already made some decisions about who stays and who goes when they inked the Clay, Shady, Harvin and Hughes deals. Now we see if they can navigate through some very rough waters. just because they made a few questionable moves regarding salaries doesn't make them one of the worst. A few moves to be made and they'll be ok...you said it yourself That's certainly a big part of it. You also have to take issue with them going all out spending without a realistic chance at a title. Not having a franchise QB is also part of that (obviously). They thought it was realistic and so did many here...... High expectations for the D and with Harvin, Clay, McCoy, Sammy...everyone said with decent QB we could be contenders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 Part of the problem is that they needed to go out and sign Mario because of serious lack of developing any pass rushers on their own at the time that they signed him. Same with Clay. The Bills had so neglected any kind of development of a TE that they needed to go out and overpay for Charles Clay. Now releasing Mario will help get them back into shape, but restructuring Clay will still put him as one the top 3-4 cap numbers for a TE in the NFL. Clay's cap number is intentionally too high in 16 (double what the rest of his numbers are throughout his deal). Based on how much impact he had when he was on the field (his snap count was huge this season, on the field over 70% of the time -- 6th on the team but that would have been higher had he not been shelved -- and his impact in both the passing and running game was noticeable), I think he's worth being paid like a top 5 TE in the league. He's that important to Roman's offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PO16FFS Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 I miss Chandler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 This is where we disagree. Every team will spend right up to the cap but for the teams who are completely and utterly rebuilding -- the Bills don't fall into that category. Being cheap with the roster is not something we will see in Buffalo under the Pegulas, those days are gone. I'm not advocating being irresponsible with the cap, but because of how flexible and fluid non guaranteed contracts are in this league, it's really difficult to get into cap jail when you have an owner willing to spend. Almost impossible, you just do not see it happening anymore in the NFL. Wow, I don't see it like that at all. The standard model for a title run is to build through the draft with reasonable free agency spending, then to retain players at reasonable contracts (usually via extensions prior to their contracts expiring). During this time the cap is managed so that there is flexibility. Then when the team is ready to compete for the title they can spend up to the limit. If the window is short, then the team can overspend and suffer after the run when the rebuilding starts. It makes no sense to go on a spending spree and hurt your long term plans to get to mediocre or just above mediocre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynBills Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 Clay's cap number is intentionally too high in 16 (double what the rest of his numbers are throughout his deal). Based on how much impact he had when he was on the field (his snap count was huge this season, on the field over 70% of the time -- 6th on the team but that would have been higher had he not been shelved -- and his impact in both the passing and running game was noticeable), I think he's worth being paid like a top 5 TE in the league. He's that important to Roman's offense. I like Clay. I thought was very good last year. But his production does not warrant being paid as a top 5 TE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 Wow, I don't see it like that at all. The standard model for a title run is to build through the draft with reasonable free agency spending, then to retain players at reasonable contracts (usually via extensions prior to their contracts expiring). During this time the cap is managed so that there is flexibility. Then when the team is ready to compete for the title they can spend up to the limit. If the window is short, then the team can overspend and suffer after the run when the rebuilding starts. It makes no sense to go on a spending spree and hurt your long term plans to get to mediocre or just above mediocre. The difference is in the bolded. Teams have to spend to the cap to be competitive. There's a floor now and a minimum spending threshold, but you have to spend over that to be in any way competitive. I don't disagree with how teams should be built, and the Bills are doing that. They drafted well and this off season will be about retaining their own talent -- which costs money. The goal is not to be hamstrung by your cap, incapable of making moves. The Bills aren't in that position at all. They have more than enough cap room to resign their own guys, which has been the plan for two years now. 2015: Spend to improve an offense which was terrible. 2016: Spend to retain the young core the team has drafted -- Glenn, Gilmore, maybe Bradham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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