For Everyone Who Wanted Rex Fired...

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

 

We've now reached the football debating equivalent of Godwin's Law. Thank you.

Belichick* Any competent coach would've had his team in the no huddle to give their team multiple snaps with the whole playbook open rather than one heave.

 

welcome

[The Big Cat]

Belichick* Any competent coach would've had his team in the no huddle to give their team multiple snaps with the whole playbook open rather than one heave.

 

welcome

 

I honestly don't remember if they were or weren't in no-huddle.

 

But I'd counter to say that any competent QB would have taken control of the clock himself.

I count 5 or 6. Dareus, Hughes, Gilmore, Darby, Graham, Lawson. Aaron Williams a potential seventh.

 

If we were in a base 4-3 rather than Rex' antiquated two-gap run stopping scheme (which the rest of the league is moving away from in favor of a one-gap pass rush), then Kyle Williams would be added to the list (8) and re-signing Bradham would be logical (9).

 

The four I was counting were Dareus, Hughes, Gilmore and Darby.

 

I'd be willing to include Lawson, but not Graham. He was awful this year.

[FireChan]

Are you seriously letting TT completely off the hook?

 

These are autonomous, sentient beings. They can perform of their own free will.

I think this is our fundamental disconnect BC. This is why we disagree.

 

You think that because TT can and should recognize to call a TO there, it somehow absolves the coaches of some blame. I disagree. Rather than it being 50% of TT and 50% Rex/Roman, it is in fact 100% on both. Both failed to recognize to call a TO there, and it was a fundamental failure on both of their accounts.

 

I don't view it as, "giving TT a pass." I just don't. If a coach and player share responibilites and both screw up, it doesn't absolve one because the other screwed up. Combined with the fact that as HC, you are the captain and your men reflect on you, I 100% call that bad coaching.

 

You wanna say both screwed up and bombed, fine. But you can't have it both ways.

Edited January 8, 2016 by FireChan

[Mr. WEO]

My thought is this

 

Rex Ryan is here another year

 

and

 

Rex Ryan is here another year

 

so all this whining is pointless.......we have to hope that Whaley and Rex can work together and get it figured out.....which Rex HAS done in the past to the tune of TWO AFC championship games with the jets

 

No, he STARTED with that at NYJ. He then had not one winning season since.

 

He could not figure it out after that unusual start to his HC career. NOW he's going to figure something out??

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

 

I honestly don't remember if they were or weren't in no-huddle.

 

But I'd counter to say that any competent QB would have taken control of the clock himself.

They were not- I remember only because I was yelling about it.

 

Well someone has to take control, no? If you were a coach who's been in the league for decades and you see that your run-oriented OC and inexperienced quarterback are hemorrhaging time, would you have stood there and cost your team a touchdown, or taken a timeout? Or said, "gee Greg, maybe we shouldn't be running the clock out on ourselves." ?

[The Big Cat]

They were not- I remember only because I was yelling about it.

 

Well someone has to take control, no? If you were a coach who's been in the league for decades and you see that your run-oriented OC and inexperienced quarterback are hemorrhaging time, would you have stood there and cost your team a touchdown, or taken a timeout? Or said, "gee Greg, maybe we shouldn't be running the clock out on ourselves." ?

 

I know this sounds like a cop out, but I don't profess to know what's going on on the sidelines, and I honestly can't remember exactly what was happening on the field that led them to take so long.

 

All I know is that they were still positioned for an ideal finish in spite of a less than ideal setup.

 

Clock stopped from the four yard line with 0:08 to go AND a time out left, they absolutely should have gotten points. I don't believe it was clock management that prevented them from doing so. If anything, it prevented them from not turning it over sooner, giving Dallas a chance to rally (though they probably wouldn't have tried given Kellen Moore)

Edited January 8, 2016 by The Big Cat

[FireChan]

 

I know this sounds like a cop out, but I don't profess to know what's going on on the sidelines, and I honestly can't remember exactly what was happening on the field that led them to take so long.

 

All I know is that they were still positioned for an ideal finish in spite of a less than ideal setup.

 

Clock stopped from the four yard line with 0:08 to go AND a time out left, they absolutely should have gotten points. I don't believe it was clock management that prevented them from doing so. If anything, it prevented them from not turning it over sooner, giving Dallas a chance to rally (though they probably wouldn't have tried given Kellen Moore)

You don't believe Tyrod tried to force it to a covered Hogan partly because he only had one shot at getting the TD?

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

 

I know this sounds like a cop out, but I don't profess to know what's going on on the sidelines, and I honestly can't remember exactly what was happening on the field that led them to take so long.

 

All I know is that they were still positioned for an ideal finish in spite of a less than ideal setup.

 

Clock stopped from the four yard line with 0:08 to go AND a time out left, they absolutely should have gotten points. I don't believe it was clock management that prevented them from doing so. If anything, it prevented them from not turning it over sooner, giving Dallas a chance to rally (though they probably wouldn't have tried given Kellen Moore)

If you're a quarterback are you more relaxed with a) a running clock that is down to 8 seconds, or b) a stopped clock at 40 seconds?

 

Just an example out of thin air. Tyrod erred but the coaches by running the clock out on their own team put him in a position where he was more likely to do so.

[The Big Cat]

You don't believe Tyrod tried to force it to a covered Hogan partly because he only had one shot at getting the TD?

 

Doesn't matter what I think. That's an egregious error if he did. He has to know better. They had a down to give. They didn't need a TD, and could have/should have settled for the chip shot if he couldn't bring himself to get it into the endzone, be it because of bad play call, bad execution, clock jitters or anything.

 

If TT wants to be paid like an NFL QB and if we want to consider him one, he simply can't make these mistakes.

 

If you're a quarterback are you more relaxed with a) a running clock that is down to 8 seconds, or b) a stopped clock at 40 seconds?

 

Just an example out of thin air. Tyrod erred but the coaches by running the clock out on their own team put him in a position where he was more likely to do so.

 

See my answer above.

 

In spite of how FC spins my assertions, saying TT should have called it doesn't absolve the coaches. I hear what you're saying. But I need my QB to be automatic in these circumstances. We'll go a lot further with a QB that has this wherewithal than we would if we're relying on the coaches to dictate what happens in crucial situations.

[Kelly the Dog]

They happened a lot.

 

I haven't rewatched the games, so forgive me, but what ONE game are you referring to? I know for a fact the Dallas game 2 minute offense was horrific. Memories a bit fuzzy on the rest.

 

Is it safe to assume you're conceding on the rest of the points?

The two minute offense has little to do with Rex. It's all Roman. If you're going to say the HC is responsible you're being ignorant of how the Bills offense was run. The only way Rex was involved was calling TO after a first down or something like that. Anything to do with plays or getting them in late or guys not knowing where they were or Tyrod not hurrying up when it looked like he should was 99% Roman. The Dallas fiasco at the end of the half was mostly Roman combined with a few new WR who didn't know where to line up.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

 

Doesn't matter what I think. That's an egregious error if he did. He has to know better. They had a down to give. They didn't need a TD, and could have/should have settled for the chip shot if he couldn't bring himself to get it into the endzone, be it because of bad play call, bad execution, clock jitters or anything.

 

If TT wants to be paid like an NFL QB and if we want to consider him one, he simply can't make these mistakes.

 

 

See my answer above.

 

In spite of how FC spins my assertions, saying TT should have called it doesn't absolve the coaches. I hear what you're saying. But I need my QB to be automatic in these circumstances. We'll go a lot further with a QB that has this wherewithal than we would if we're relying on the coaches to dictate what happens in crucial situations.

We've seen the Bills run the no-huddle before under Rex and Roman. It is disjointed but it is functional.

 

The fact that they weren't in the no-huddle this time, and the overall snail's pace of the offense, seems indicative that running clock was part of their tactical approach to the situation.

 

We can hardly get on Taylor for not revolting against his coaches, even if they do stink.

[FireChan]

 

Doesn't matter what I think. That's an egregious error if he did. He has to know better. They had a down to give. They didn't need a TD, and could have/should have settled for the chip shot if he couldn't bring himself to get it into the endzone, be it because of bad play call, bad execution, clock jitters or anything.

 

If TT wants to be paid like an NFL QB and if we want to consider him one, he simply can't make these mistakes.

 

 

See my answer above.

 

In spite of how FC spins my assertions, saying TT should have called it doesn't absolve the coaches. I hear what you're saying. But I need my QB to be automatic in these circumstances. We'll go a lot further with a QB that has this wherewithal than we would if we're relying on the coaches to dictate what happens in crucial situations.

Then why bring it up? Is clock management not an integral responsibility of the coaches? How does the fact that TT is "an autonomous, sentient being," change that Rex/Roman also should've called a TO? It sounds like you're trying to spread the blame around. Please explain to me what point you were trying to make there, besides trying to absolve the coaches of blame.

 

Also, in the same breath of calling TT inexperienced, you also say that he "should've" known better. Maybe our coaches could give him a hand, seeing as they are also aware he's inexperienced. Maybe?

 

The two minute offense has little to do with Rex. It's all Roman. If you're going to say the HC is responsible you're being ignorant of how the Bills offense was run. The only way Rex was involved was calling TO after a first down or something like that. Anything to do with plays or getting them in late or guys not knowing where they were or Tyrod not hurrying up when it looked like he should was 99% Roman. The Dallas fiasco at the end of the half was mostly Roman combined with a few new WR who didn't know where to line up.

If Rex is so incompetent on the offensive side of the ball that he has to tie his own hands behind his back, and refuses to even call an obvious time out because of his fear of screwing up or lack of ability, how is that not an indictment on Rex? Also, if Rex is getting credit for bringing in a competent OC for the first time in 5 years, why does he not also share blame for the screwups of that OC? Arguing that Rex is a glorified DC who is HC in name only is not a good look when arguing about his competency as an HC.

Edited January 8, 2016 by FireChan

[Kelly the Dog]

Then why bring it up? Is clock management not an integral responsibility of the coaches? How does the fact that TT is "an autonomous, sentient being," change that Rex/Roman also should've called a TO? It sounds like you're trying to spread the blame around. Please explain to me what point you were trying to make there, besides trying to absolve the coaches of blame.

 

If Rex is so incompetent on the offensive side of the ball that he has to tie his own hands behind his back, and refuses to even call an obvious time out because of his fear of screwing up or lack of ability, how is that not an indictment on Rex? Also, if Rex is getting credit for bringing in a competent OC for the first time in 5 years, why does he not also share blame for the screwups of that OC? Arguing that Rex is a glorified DC who is HC in name only is not a good look when arguing about his competency as an HC.

He's not so incompetent, he smartly allows his OC to run the O show. He's responsible for calling most of the game situation timeouts but he was pretty good the whole season at that. Sometimes I even bitched at him for wasting time but then it turned out they did exactly the right thing. Wasting timeouts in the middle of the halves on both sides of the ball was a huge problem, and that was on Roman on the offense and on Rex on the defense for not getting the plays in quick enough.

 

Roman didn't give Taylor enough leeway because he was a first year QB in a brand new complex system. I personally think it was a mistake but you really don't want your HC infringing upon that relationship if he is not an offensive guy, and Rex was smart to not micromanage.

 

(One caveat, IMO, Rex SHOULD have stuck his snoot in and insisted on Roman making TT get the ball to Sammy more. Sometimes a HC has to do it when over and over and over a problem exists).

 

Roman, with Rex's blessing, didn't put too much on Taylor's plate to allow him to do what he needed to do. So Roman did not let him run the two minute offense himself. You really don't want Rex looking over any OC's shoulder and micromanaging things that are already being micromanaged.

 

Rex was wise to stay out of the offense for the most part the entire season. He was involved in it but didn't force himself.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

The two minute offense has little to do with Rex. It's all Roman. If you're going to say the HC is responsible you're being ignorant of how the Bills offense was run. The only way Rex was involved was calling TO after a first down or something like that. Anything to do with plays or getting them in late or guys not knowing where they were or Tyrod not hurrying up when it looked like he should was 99% Roman. The Dallas fiasco at the end of the half was mostly Roman combined with a few new WR who didn't know where to line up.

something that comes to mind in reading your post. if you'll humor me...

 

 

scenario:

 

you're winning by 2 points with say 1:45 left in the game. opponent has one timeout. you have possession on your own 30, facing 3rd & 6.

 

you can throw to try to get the game-winning first down, or you can run and take your opponent's final timeout away but (most likely) punt the ball, giving your opponent a chance with a minute and a half left.

 

Is this an offensive call? Or is it a tactical, strategic decision?

 

What qualifies an offensive coordinator to make such a monumental game management decision? It has little to do with X's and O's, and far more to do with what type of team do you want to be? What is your identity? Which risk do you prefer to take?

 

To me, this is a Head Coach's jurisdiction. Adapting to and managing game situations is his responsibility. If he wants to go ahead and pass the decision making baton to someone else that's fine. But you don't get to slide off the hook, to me anyway, just because you passed off your duties.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Aaron

[FireChan]

He's not so incompetent, he smartly allows his OC to run the O show. He's responsible for calling most of the game situation timeouts but he was pretty good the whole season at that. Sometimes I even bitched at him for wasting time but then it turned out they did exactly the right thing. Wasting timeouts in the middle of the halves on both sides of the ball was a huge problem, and that was on Roman on the offense and on Rex on the defense for not getting the plays in quick enough.

 

Roman didn't give Taylor enough leeway because he was a first year QB in a brand new complex system. I personally think it was a mistake but you really don't want your HC infringing upon that relationship if he is not an offensive guy, and Rex was smart to not micromanage.

 

(One caveat, IMO, Rex SHOULD have stuck his snoot in and insisted on Roman making TT get the ball to Sammy more. Sometimes a HC has to do it when over and over and over a problem exists).

 

Roman, with Rex's blessing, didn't put too much on Taylor's plate to allow him to do what he needed to do. So Roman did not let him run the two minute offense himself. You really don't want Rex looking over any OC's shoulder and micromanaging things that are already being micromanaged.

 

Rex was wise to stay out of the offense for the most part the entire season. He was involved in it but didn't force himself.

What kind of thin-skinned OC would feel "infringed" if his HC called a TO in an obvious situational call? This isn't a debatable situation. It's obvious to not waste 35 seconds of clock on your opponents' 7.

 

Sounds like Roman doesn't remember who the boss is.

Edited January 8, 2016 by FireChan

[Maury Ballstein]

No, he STARTED with that at NYJ. He then had not one winning season since.

 

He could not figure it out after that unusual start to his HC career. NOW he's going to figure something out??

Good point. But whose gonna win ball games with Shonn Green, Sanchez, and Stephen Hill as your offensive big 3 ?

[Mr. WEO]

Good point. But whose gonna win ball games with Shonn Green, Sanchez, and Stephen Hill as your offensive big 3 ?

 

Well he did it with Sanchez, "LT"'s carcass and and Edwards, who was under 1000 yards (and Greene and Keller). And the great Jericho Cotchery the year before.

 

A year after the 2 AFCC appearances he went 8-8 with the same except for Keller instead of Edwards--Greene was over 1000 yards (better than LT in his years with Jets). The next year it was 6-10 again with Snachez, Greene (again over 1000 yards) and Kerley (827 yards, 14.5 per).

 

Not a huge dropoff in star power...

[Kelly the Dog]

something that comes to mind in reading your post. if you'll humor me...

 

 

scenario:

 

you're winning by 2 points with say 1:45 left in the game. opponent has one timeout. you have possession on your own 30, facing 3rd & 6.

 

you can throw to try to get the game-winning first down, or you can run and take your opponent's final timeout away but (most likely) punt the ball, giving your opponent a chance with a minute and a half left.

 

Is this an offensive call? Or is it a tactical, strategic decision?

 

What qualifies an offensive coordinator to make such a monumental game management decision? It has little to do with X's and O's, and far more to do with what type of team do you want to be? What is your identity? Which risk do you prefer to take?

 

To me, this is a Head Coach's jurisdiction. Adapting to and managing game situations is his responsibility. If he wants to go ahead and pass the decision making baton to someone else that's fine. But you don't get to slide off the hook, to me anyway, just because you passed off your duties.

That is a HC decision for sure, and what I was referring to when I said open field calls, or calls after a first down.

What kind of thin-skinned OC would feel "infringed" if his HC called a TO in an obvious situational call? This isn't a debatable situation. It's obvious to not waste 35 seconds of clock on your opponents' 7.

 

Sounds like Roman doesn't remember who the boss is.

They wasted 35 seconds but they wanted to waste about 29 of those 35 seconds. The main problem wasn't Rex at all, it was Roman getting the play in and the guys on the field didn't know where to go. And then (either) the play call or TT's decision to throw a fade to Hogan instead of throw it to Sammy.

 

Roman isn't thin skinned. That's not the point of why you don't infringe on him. You don't because he knows more about how to run an offense and especially that offense than you do.

 

Well he did it with Sanchez, "LT"'s carcass and and Edwards, who was under 1000 yards (and Greene and Keller). And the great Jericho Cotchery the year before.

 

A year after the 2 AFCC appearances he went 8-8 with the same except for Keller instead of Edwards--Greene was over 1000 yards (better than LT in his years with Jets). The next year it was 6-10 again with Snachez, Greene (again over 1000 yards) and Kerley (827 yards, 14.5 per).

 

Not a huge dropoff in star power...

His first year he went to the playoffs he had Santonio Holmes and Edwards. Second year it was Santonio and Plaxico. Way bigger star power.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

That is a HC decision for sure, and what I was referring to when I said open field calls, or calls after a first down.

They wasted 35 seconds but they wanted to waste about 29 of those 35 seconds. The main problem wasn't Rex at all, it was Roman getting the play in and the guys on the field didn't know where to go. And then (either) the play call or TT's decision to throw a fade to Hogan instead of throw it to Sammy.

There was absolutely an element of conscious game management here. We were huddling the entire possession, not something you do by accident. Further, we handled the situation the same way week 16 that we did week 1.

 

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201509130buf.htm

 

Every play that ends with a tackle in bounds, we're siphoning off big chunks of clock.

 

We take over with 2:42 remaining in the 1st half, immediately complete an 8-yard pass to the 50 yard line and run it to the 2-minute warning. Very questionable, not egregious.

 

Tyrod eventually runs for 31 yards out of bounds, then a holding penalty gives us 1st & 20 from the IND 31, clock stopped at 1:03.

 

At this point, the clear first priority should be scoring a touchdown. The second priority is taking time off the clock before scoring a touchdown, so the opponent can't respond. However, priority 2 should never interfere with priority 1. I don't doubt any coach in the league would tell us he'd happily give the other team 30-40 seconds and deal with that, if it means our side gets a touchdown first. So the correct play is to intentionally run clock only when you're certain it won't cost you offensive snaps, and won't limit your playbook. We don't run clock if it lowers our odds of scoring a touchdown.

 

Tyrod runs for 5 yards on the next play, and the clock goes from 1:03 to 26 seconds.

From 1:03 to :26 on the opponent's 26 yard line. This is the part that is egregious.

 

The next play is 2nd & 15 and we're running out of time, so we give up and hand it to the running back. Good offense bails out poor management, and Karlos Williams runs for a 26 yard touchdown. I know I don't have to explain to you why that one favorable result does not make poor management okay. In week 16, we get a clear illustration of why this is the wrong approach to this game situation.

 

This is not only about offense, its about game management.

Edited January 15, 2016 by Aaron

[JohnC]

Don't think this has been mentioned, but I'd take Tom Coughlin over Rex Ryan any day.

 

He would've been a great target had we fired Rex.

I'd take Hank Bullough over Rex. He certainly wasn't a good coach but at least he wasn't a bullshiiiiter!