Possible, partial explanation for why D was bad

[papazoid]

Rex's defense was the most complicated and hardest defense I have ever played in - All Pro Jason Taylor

 

 

this team is full of players who are NOT quick learners.....hughes, bradham, aaron williams, dareus, brooks, mckelvin

 

and some who refuse to learn - Mario

Edited January 8, 2016 by papazoid

[GG]

 

The thing is GG, you can do that with every football team and several players, almost every game. A handful of specific plays are the turning point in almost every game.

 

With his outspoken comments, followed by the "anonymous player" blast (I hate anonymous shite), Mario drew attention to himself and made himself a lightening rod for the team's "defensive problems" vs. "Mr Big Stuff" and others whose impact was lowered or who also missed critical plays. Nobody questioned Hughes effort, but d*mn his penalties at the wrong time swung the game at times. And so forth.

 

Don't disagree for most part. Yet it all goes back to the effort. If you are going to get vocal about your disagreement with the scheme, then prove it by showing that the scheme doesn't work despite your best efforts to play within that scheme.

 

Mario undermined his own argument by slacking off and give up huge gains on those piss poor efforts. I may have missed a bunch of All-22s, but of his coverage plays that I focused on during the season were all very good play calls that prevented big gains.

 

I urge people again, to watch what happened in the Bengals game - since that's when Mario started complaining about being asked to drop back. Hue took a page out of last year's playbooks that worked very well against Schwartz's Bills D, and the RB swing passes worked against Rex's D. So after not asking his DLs to drop into coverage in the first half, Rex called for about 3 plays for Mario to watch the RB running into the flat. Each of those calls prevented the easy outlet throw. Now, contrast that to the second Pats* game when Mario apparently did not drop into coverage when he was supposed to.

 

And I'm willing to cut Hughes & Dareus some slack because I don't recall their slacking plays or PFs directly leading to TDs. There were a handful of plays where Mario simply stopped once he got past the QB, but the play was still going on. He made very little effort to remain active, but if he had he could have disrupted many big plays. His sack on a huge second effort in the Jets game was the first such play of the year.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

 

Don't disagree for most part. Yet it all goes back to the effort. If you are going to get vocal about your disagreement with the scheme, then prove it by showing that the scheme doesn't work despite your best efforts to play within that scheme.

 

Mario undermined his own argument by slacking off and give up huge gains on those piss poor efforts. I may have missed a bunch of All-22s, but of his coverage plays that I focused on during the season were all very good play calls that prevented big gains.

 

Oh, I agree completely. "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone". Mario completely undermined the credibility of any complaints by his on-field play at times.

 

My point is that once Mario did open his mouth and speak out, he drew an extra layer of scrutiny that some of the other players may not have received. I haven't gone back and looked hard with the same layer of scrutiny at the rest of the DL and LB, but I felt that under Wannstache Dareus took plays off by mid-season, and it wouldn't surprise me if I thought the same here.

[Nihilarian]

Rex's defense was the most complicated and hardest defense I have ever played in - All Pro Jason Taylor

 

 

this team is full of players who are NOT quick learners.....hughes, bradham, aaron williams, dareus, brooks, mckelvin

 

and some who refuse to learn - Mario

I agree that Ryan's defensive scheme is complicated and somewhat difficult to learn.

 

However, I just don't think it takes 14 games or a season to fully learn it. The 2009 NY Jets went from around 18th the previous year to #1 in total defense in Ryan's first year mostly because he had the proper personnel on the roster to run it. Those Jets didn't need most of the year to learn his scheme.

 

 

Jim Schwartz had a simple attack plan to utilize his defensive line to mostly rush the passer. He still had some of them dropping into pass coverage now and again to mix things up, just not to the extent that Ryan did this year. It was like Ryan was running a zone blitz scheme without any blitzing.

 

Schwartz"s scheme for the D-line = attack! Ryan's scheme = could have a multitude of checks which can make the defense slow to react and screw up if they make the wrong read, which happened a bunch.

• It wasn't just the injuries.
• It wasn't just the lack of blitzing.
• It wasn't just utilizing a bad scheme fit for the players on the roster.
• It wasn't just asking the elite pass rushers to drop into pass coverage more than they should have.
• It wasn't just the scheme asking the elite pass rushers to play gap control over rushing the passer.
• It wasn't just the defensive play calls coming in late.
• It wasn't just switching out defensive players as the offense broke the huddle or players not being set when the ball is snapped.

It was a confluence of everything above creating the crapstorm of a defense we all saw on the field and yea it was that bad. From a top five unit to 20th for most of the year was a disaster in my view.

 

What bothers me a bit is that the last two meaningless games it looked like the coaches finally changed up the defense to be more simplified with less dropping into coverage along with more rushing the passer. Doing this moved the stats down a notch from 20th to 19th. What also bothers me is the fact that a new HC ruined a playoff caliber defense because he didn't want to adjust the scheme to fit the players. So, now the team will need to add different players to make Ryan's defense work and how many years will that take?

[GG]

 

Oh, I agree completely. "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone". Mario completely undermined the credibility of any complaints by his on-field play at times.

 

My point is that once Mario did open his mouth and speak out, he drew an extra layer of scrutiny that some of the other players may not have received. I haven't gone back and looked hard with the same layer of scrutiny at the rest of the DL and LB, but I felt that under Wannstache Dareus took plays off by mid-season, and it wouldn't surprise me if I thought the same here.

 

Yup, and compare Mario's complaints about playcalling to Watkins' complaints about playcalling. Both called the scheme out, yet one made the plays on the field and his production improved dramatically over the year.

[Luxy312]

I don't buy the "scheme complication" argument at all. What stands out to me is Rex believing that his schemes would work no matter what players he has on the field. There were times in EVERY game this year where I watched Mario and or Marcel drop into pass coverage on some switch up just before the snap. I'm sorry if anyone disagrees, but this should NEVER EVER happen. If they are on the field, they should be going at the quarterback or collapsing blocking schemes on every single play. The only guy you might drop into coverage is Jerry Hughes and even that is only on very specific down and distance situations where you need a big guy covering a tight end under the middle. So I'm simply not buying the explanation. Mario had the worst year of his entire career and is likely gone. He's gone because Rex believed that he could turn a pass rushing sack specialist into a zone coverage defensive end. Stupid and stubborn thinking.

[RussellDopeland]

Whenever bloviator Rex fails there's always a scapegoat, a fall guy, that is readily blamed. Whether it be Tannenbaum, Idzik, Sanchez, Geno Smith- the failings of others seem to allow teflon Rex to avoid responsibility. Even when the NYJ fired him, it was obviously Idzik's fault. Bootlickers in the national media, who tell us of Rex's "genius", othen fuel this narrative. Now we have, once again, the ready-made excuse: it was the defensive players who were to blame for the regression of their unit. They were lax and didn't study, or could not computate, Rex's voluminous, undeniably brilliant playbook. This coupled with the evil Mario Williams, apparently some Bond-like villain, undermining Rex and his noble crusaders, allowed for the defense to morph into a castrated shell of its former self.

[1B4IDie]

I just saw a locker clean-out interview with Jerry Hughes. I saw it on Twitter and can't get it right now but it's on bills.com I think and someone will link it I'm sure.

 

It's possible I'm reading into this but Hughes sounded to me like the players didn't put the work in in training camp to learn the playbook. I don't think he was talking about anyone in particular but just that they should have had the defense down, they had time to get it down, even before the season, and they just didn't get it down. He was a very standup guy about it.

 

I was watching a Sabres game this year against the Columbus Blue Jackets. They were coming off an season where they ended on a 12-0-1 win streak but didn't make the playoffs. This year everyone everywhere thought they were going to be one of the better teams in the league and they have been terrible. The announcers were interviewing a guy who was there at the beginning of the season and he said it was immediately clear to him that these guys weren't prepared. They came into the season positive they were going to be great but didn't put the work in, didn't work their ass off in training camp, and just assumed they would start winning because of the way they played together at the end of last year.

 

I think that's very possible what happened to the Bills defense.

 

They just assumed they would be great because they had been great in 2014 and now had Rex. And they knew they knew how to play defense. But they may not have put the hours and work in to learn the new defense the way they should have.

 

So maybe it wasn't all Rex's scheme and the blame goes half on the players.

 

That said, I still think that Rex had an absolutely horrible year with his game plans and strategy and trying to be too cute. So even if it was more the players fault than we thought it wasn't less his fault for not pressuring, pressing, and doing what he does best in 14 of the 16 games.

I'm not interested in justifying the shite performance by the Defense.

 

I'm not interested in pandering BS hope for next season. (The NFC West and AFC North is going to eat this Mickey Mouse Defense alive in 2016)

 

They sucked because they were poorly coached (can't get players in and out of the game. Egregious number of neutral zone infractions, etc) and did not execute (the players appeared to enjoy having a great view of watching RBs leak out of the backfield and take dump off passes for 25+ yards. "Oh was I supposed tackle that guy?", no effort on pass rush, etc.)

 

Just !@#$ing win!

Edited January 8, 2016 by 1B4IDie

[SoulMan]

One would think a defensive genius coach would notice that his team was not properly absorbing material and preparing. Ours did not.

 

 

Cuz Rex Sux.

e

 

This puts it on Rex where it should be.

[Nihilarian]

 

Don't disagree for most part. Yet it all goes back to the effort. If you are going to get vocal about your disagreement with the scheme, then prove it by showing that the scheme doesn't work despite your best efforts to play within that scheme.

 

Mario undermined his own argument by slacking off and give up huge gains on those piss poor efforts. I may have missed a bunch of All-22s, but of his coverage plays that I focused on during the season were all very good play calls that prevented big gains.

 

I urge people again, to watch what happened in the Bengals game - since that's when Mario started complaining about being asked to drop back. Hue took a page out of last year's playbooks that worked very well against Schwartz's Bills D, and the RB swing passes worked against Rex's D. So after not asking his DLs to drop into coverage in the first half, Rex called for about 3 plays for Mario to watch the RB running into the flat. Each of those calls prevented the easy outlet throw. Now, contrast that to the second Pats* game when Mario apparently did not drop into coverage when he was supposed to.

 

And I'm willing to cut Hughes & Dareus some slack because I don't recall their slacking plays or PFs directly leading to TDs. There were a handful of plays where Mario simply stopped once he got past the QB, but the play was still going on. He made very little effort to remain active, but if he had he could have disrupted many big plays. His sack on a huge second effort in the Jets game was the first such play of the year.

I dunno GG I just rewatched that game and though it is difficult to see what is happening from the side view it looked to me like #71 of the Bengals simply stoned #74 most of the game. It looked to me like Mario was giving effort on every play. Joe B grade that game and gave Mario a "C".

 

That article I linked earlier the author wrote about what happened in that Bengals game and gave his opinion. http://www.sbnation.com/2015/10/21/9581575/mario-williams-marcell-dareus-rex-ryan-buffalo-bills-defense.

 

The sad fact of the matter is that the Bills were only able to get one hit on Andy Dalton all game and that was from a blitz. Dalton was getting the ball out quickly and negating the rush. What bugs the heck out of me is to watch the Bills rush with only three players on some plays and the Bengals looked like they always had six in to block.

[GG]

I dunno GG I just rewatched that game and though it is difficult to see what is happening from the side view it looked to me like #71 of the Bengals simply stoned #74 most of the game. It looked to me like Mario was giving effort on every play. Joe B grade that game and gave Mario a "C".

 

That article I linked earlier the author wrote about what happened in that Bengals game and gave his opinion. http://www.sbnation.com/2015/10/21/9581575/mario-williams-marcell-dareus-rex-ryan-buffalo-bills-defense.

 

The sad fact of the matter is that the Bills were only able to get one hit on Andy Dalton all game and that was from a blitz. Dalton was getting the ball out quickly and negating the rush. What bugs the heck out of me is to watch the Bills rush with only three players on some plays and the Bengals looked like they always had six in to block.

 

Not really what I'm referring to. I think that Mario stopped giving full effort after that game.

 

But this game, and to extent, the first Pats* game highlights how offenses prepared for the Bills D with quick passing attacks and how Ryan couldn't do much to stop it this year. That's why I also have a theory that Schwartz's defense would have been much worse this year as well. They would have been killed by quick slants & RB wheelhouse routes.

[NoSaint]

What's acceptable? Giving up on 10%, 20%, 30% of the plays? He was a shadow of what he was the prior two years. Certainly the scheme stunted his performance but it was evident that he didn't maintain consistent effort this season. That's the core of my criticism of him. He was put in an unfavorable/uncomfortable position by a dumbasss HC. His attitude in general in response to his situation was not professional. He was unhappy with the situation he was placed in and he showed it through his effort.

I wasn't arguing opinion that it's ok, I was pointing out that people were getting a little carried away and stories of 10% became 20% and 20 became 40%

 

It's not ok for him to sulk even part time but it's likewise not fair to portray it as him sitting on the ground at the 7tech spot boycotting the whole season. A few posters I think we're getting caught in the validation of getting lauded for their calling him out so they upped their criticisms and a loop was taking form there

Edited January 8, 2016 by NoSaint

[JohnC]

I wasn't arguing opinion that it's ok, I was pointing out that people were getting a little carried away and stories of 10% became 20% and 20 became 40%

 

It's not ok for him to sulk even part time but it's likewise not fair to portray it as him sitting on the ground at the 7tech spot boycotting the whole season. A few posters I think we're getting caught in the validation of getting lauded for their calling him out so they upped their criticisms and a loop was taking form there

This was a playoff team that especially on the defensive side of the ball underachieved. That was the difference (in my opinion) between making and not making the playoffs. This team had flaws, as do most teams do. So I'm not going to exaggerate their talent level.

 

The GM for the most part focused his attention on upgrading the offense. Which he did rather successfully. Some people can make the case that he paid too much for the acquisitions but they all (Incognito, McCoy and Clay) made important contributions to the offense.

 

Did Rex's approach on defense draw explicit and internal dissension? Yes. That is the prime source of my unhappiness on this topic. The talent level didn't fail this team---the coaching level did on the defensive side of the ball.

 

Mario Williams will probably not be back next season. The player replacing him (even as he gets older) will not be as good as he is when utilized properly. Or another way of looking at this situation is that by hiring the HC that the Jets fired we set our franchise back again just when we were in a position to move forward. That is the source of my frustration!

[yungmack]

This was a playoff team that especially on the defensive side of the ball underachieved. That was the difference (in my opinion) between making and not making the playoffs. This team had flaws, as do most teams do. So I'm not going to exaggerate their talent level.

 

The GM for the most part focused his attention on upgrading the offense. Which he did rather successfully. Some people can make the case that he paid too much for the acquisitions but they all (Incognito, McCoy and Clay) made important contributions to the offense.

 

Did Rex's approach on defense draw explicit and internal dissension? Yes. That is the prime source of my unhappiness on this topic. The talent level didn't fail this team---the coaching level did on the defensive side of the ball.

 

Mario Williams will probably not be back next season. The player replacing him (even as he gets older) will not be as good as he is when utilized properly. Or another way of looking at this situation is that by hiring the HC that the Jets fired we set our franchise back again just when we were in a position to move forward. That is the source of my frustration!

This sums up my feelings about the Bills since P. T. Ryan came to town.

[GG]

 

 

Mario Williams will probably not be back next season. The player replacing him (even as he gets older) will not be as good as he is when utilized properly. Or another way of looking at this situation is that by hiring the HC that the Jets fired we set our franchise back again just when we were in a position to move forward. That is the source of my frustration!

 

What are the chances that Mario would be with Bills in '16 even if Rex wasn't hired? Other than not making the playoffs in '15, did Rex really set the franchise far back?

[The Big Cat]

 

What are the chances that Mario would be with Bills in '16 even if Rex wasn't hired? Other than not making the playoffs in '15, did Rex really set the franchise far back?

 

Yeah, signing off on the certainty that this WAS A PLAYOFF team seems odd when you look back critically on the 2014 season.

[eball]

 

What are the chances that Mario would be with Bills in '16 even if Rex wasn't hired? Other than not making the playoffs in '15, did Rex really set the franchise far back?

 

I suppose if Mario had played at the level he played in 2014 the Bills would have approached him with a restructure rather than letting him go, don't you think?

[GG]

 

I suppose if Mario had played at the level he played in 2014 the Bills would have approached him with a restructure rather than letting him go, don't you think?

 

Highly unlikely as they resigned Hughes and extended Dareus. Can't have that much cap dedicated to the DL.

[eball]

 

Highly unlikely as they resigned Hughes and extended Dareus. Can't have that much cap dedicated to the DL.

 

Yeah, well, if you put it that way...great job, Rex!

[billsfan_34]

I just saw a locker clean-out interview with Jerry Hughes. I saw it on Twitter and can't get it right now but it's on bills.com I think and someone will link it I'm sure.

 

It's possible I'm reading into this but Hughes sounded to me like the players didn't put the work in in training camp to learn the playbook. I don't think he was talking about anyone in particular but just that they should have had the defense down, they had time to get it down, even before the season, and they just didn't get it down. He was a very standup guy about it.

 

I was watching a Sabres game this year against the Columbus Blue Jackets. They were coming off an season where they ended on a 12-0-1 win streak but didn't make the playoffs. This year everyone everywhere thought they were going to be one of the better teams in the league and they have been terrible. The announcers were interviewing a guy who was there at the beginning of the season and he said it was immediately clear to him that these guys weren't prepared. They came into the season positive they were going to be great but didn't put the work in, didn't work their ass off in training camp, and just assumed they would start winning because of the way they played together at the end of last year.

 

I think that's very possible what happened to the Bills defense.

 

They just assumed they would be great because they had been great in 2014 and now had Rex. And they knew they knew how to play defense. But they may not have put the hours and work in to learn the new defense the way they should have.

 

So maybe it wasn't all Rex's scheme and the blame goes half on the players.

 

That said, I still think that Rex had an absolutely horrible year with his game plans and strategy and trying to be too cute. So even if it was more the players fault than we thought it wasn't less his fault for not pressuring, pressing, and doing what he does best in 14 of the 16 games.

How does anyone justify dropping 345 lb DTs and 310 lb DEs into pass coverage? Even if they all got the scheme down it isnt effective in todays NFL. Next year will tell all for each and everyone of us who has gone back and forth over the past weeks. Edited January 8, 2016 by billsfan_34