Possible, partial explanation for why D was bad

[Kelly the Dog]

Mario Williams clearly quit on the team. It was blatantly obvious by his lackluster effort and horrible body language. Even a number of teammates directly and indirectly pointed out his lack of effort and disinterest. The HC kept him on the field. That was a demonstration of a lack of leadership and control by the HC. The way to jolt a headstrong player who is sabotaging the team is to take that player off the field, and if necessary not dress him for games until he shows that he cares. If the HC would have acted appropriately and showed some spine to this unprofessional and malcontent player a message would have been sent not only to the player in question but to the rest of the team that players would not only be held accountable for their play but there also would be consequences for their bad play and disruptive behavior.

 

How do you think a Belichick or a Tomlin or a Bruce Arians would have handled a Mario situation compared to the manner in which RR handled it? If you put up with shiiiit you will continue to get shiiiiit!

Brady holds the Pats offensive players at least as much accountable as Belichick does. He's notorious. The fact is, the players either by not studying, not trying, not giving 167% or whatever the most amount is, or not being leaders let the team down as much as the coach, which was SUBSTANTIAL. I'm not letting Rex off the hook at all. He was terrible the vast majority of the season.

[Mister Defense]

What is more likely:

 

1) Rex Ryan, a guy known all around the NFL as a defensive mastermind, suddenly forgot how to coach defense.

2) His (perhaps overly) complicated system takes a long time to learn AND the Bills has injuries at key positions and a major defensive player who didn't want to buy in.

 

But it isn't true, look at the defensive statistics of the Jets the last four years. They had the players, but were not a high level defense in the most important statistical areas. And we all saw that when we watched them--hot and cold, inconsistent, few big plays, not ready for prime time, etcetera--these were their most consistent attributes.

 

Takes a long time to learn! So sick of hearing this, so ludicrous that this is still being said. NOTHING to back that up, any more than there is to back up 'Rex is a defensive genius', just an illogical cop out. These are NFL players, most with significant experience.

[Kelly the Dog]

 

But it isn't true, look at the defensive statistics of the Jets the last four years. They had the players, but were not a high level defense in the most important statistical areas.

They. Did. Not. Last year they had by far the worse secondary in the league. And a terrible offense that was constantly turning the ball over.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Kelly the Dog

[JohnC]

Brady holds the Pats offensive players at least as much accountable as Belichick does. He's notorious. The fact is, the players either by not studying, not trying, not giving 167% or whatever the most amount is, or not being leaders let the team down as much as the coach, which was SUBSTANTIAL. I'm not letting Rex off the hook at all. He was terrible the vast majority of the season.

There was a void of leadership on the defense, especially when Kyle Williams got hurt. In the beginning of the season I thought MW was hurt after watching him play with so little energy. The reality is that he checked out. It was in your face insubordination. The tough talking bully coach meekly and passively failed to confront this poisonous malcontent player. There was a simple way to handle this highly paid obstinate fool. Take him off the field and direct him to the bench. If he continued to stew then don't dress him for the next game or until he plays with more integrity and vigor.

 

One of the primary responsibilities for the HC that is not quantifiable but is evident when it exists or doesn't exist is creating an environment of accountability. Mario blatantly demonstrated a lack of respect for the HC. The tough talking HC walked away without standing up for himself and the team. And everyone in the locker room witnessed this season long Mario saga. You earn respect by acting in a manner worthy of respect. It was a pathetic display of a lack of leadership and control by the loquacious HC!

[3rdand12]

Mario Williams clearly quit on the team. It was blatantly obvious by his lackluster effort and horrible body language. Even a number of teammates directly and indirectly pointed out his lack of effort and disinterest. The HC kept him on the field. That was a demonstration of a lack of leadership and control by the HC. The way to jolt a headstrong player who is sabotaging the team is to take that player off the field, and if necessary not dress him for games until he shows that he cares. If the HC would have acted appropriately and showed some spine to this unprofessional and malcontent player a message would have been sent not only to the player in question but to the rest of the team that players would not only be held accountable for their play but there also would be consequences for their bad play and disruptive behavior.

 

How do you think a Belichick or a Tomlin or a Bruce Arians would have handled a Mario situation compared to the manner in which RR handled it? If you put up with shiiiit you will continue to get shiiiiit!

No it wasn't i must admit. It was a Coach showing faith in his player to turn towards him.

 

you did see the hustle sack?

 

wrong or right, it was not a lack of leadership. It was an error in retrospect

[JohnC]

No it wasn't i must admit. It was a Coach showing faith in his player to turn towards him.

 

you did see the hustle sack?

 

wrong or right, it was not a lack of leadership. It was an error in retrospect

The Mario saga was a season long saga. It wasn't simply an "incident" type situation. It was rebellious behavior by a player who didn't agree with his role in a defense that he didn't want to play in. Mario is a talented me player who is also very headstrong. The HC let him stay on the field all season long despite all season long the insubordinate player played with a lack of effort.

 

It's not surprising that the Bills were an undisciplined team. It's not surprising that they were one of the most penalized teams in the league. It is not surprising that the team intelligence was dismal. That happens when the HC doesn't hold the players accountable for their play and conduct. The tough talking HC allowed himself to be trampled. That isn't leadership and good coaching. When you act in a manner not worthy of respect don't be surprised that you don't garner respect.

 

This wasn't a very complicated situation. You have an insubordinate player who quit on the team. There is only one appropriate response: get this arsehole off the field, and if necessary off the active roster. If it causes you to lose (his desultory play wasn't causing you to win) at least you haven't lost your dignity and the respect from the rest of the team.

Edited January 8, 2016 by JohnC

[ganesh]

 

Come on, man-- buck up!! If you have at least 10 good years left, I am confident that we will sneak in the playoffs at some point in the next decade.

JR,

 

Isn't that we have been saying every year for the last 16 years. We thought we had it when we beat the Pats 31-0 to open the season with that awesome defense. We thought we could do nothing wrong when we were sitting at 6-2 and just needed 4 wins to ensure a playoff berth. We thought we will transition from a 9-7 to a 11-5 team this year especially with the dismantling of the Colts in the season opener........We might end up with another 10 excuses in the next decade!!!

[Nihilarian]

I think most of you simply have the wrong read on Mario like he was totally insubordinate and didn't even attempt to do his job. If his job calls for gap contain on a certain play then he is going to look like he is just standing there and not making any effort.

 

I saw at times that Rex Ryan even had Mario wide out as if he was in a "wide nine" type scheme and was on the outside of the OT like Schwartz used him and he still didn't get to the QB. It sure didn't look like he wasn't trying, though.

 

Anyway, here are some excerpts from a BN story by Tyler Dunn. http://bills.buffalonews.com/2015/12/31/248307/

 

“At the end of the day,” Williams said, “you just have to play what’s called and the position you’re in. You can’t do anything about it.”= Gap control or dropping into pass coverage?

 

"but inside linebacker Preston Brown asserts that Williams “definitely bought in” to Ryan’s defense and that effort hasn't been an issue.

 

“He was trying to do what the coaches asked him to,” Brown said. “When you’re 30 years old, it’s kind of hard to start doing stuff you’ve never done. … He’s out there doing his job. I know he’s out there doing his job day in and day out.”

Probably the most telling part,

"Teammates staunchly defend Mario Williams anonymously, too. While some are skeptical about Ryan’s scheme publicly, others are downright furious privately. One player said he completely understands Williams’ season long frustration because the simple, straightforward, attacking defense employed by 2014 coordinator Jim Schwartz was so effective.

Under Schwartz in 2014, the Bills racked up 54 sacks and opposing quarterbacks had a 74.5 rating. Under Ryan in 2015, they have 20 sacks and quarterbacks have an 86.0 rating."

"It's been night and day.

 

Many players here preferred Schwartz's mano-a-mano approach up front. Playing a “Wide 9” technique — rushing off the edge — the 6-foot-6, 292-pound Williams was a force. Now? Simulated pressure, confusion, hiding your intentions pre-snap is the emphasis and he's mostly just taking up space."

What the coaches think,

"But I think he’s helping our defense based upon the things he’s doing.”

Dunbar cited linebacker Manny Lawson’s hit on Dallas’ Kellen Moore — the team’s only registered QB hit in the game — as one such play. Williams covered tight end James Hanna out of the backfield, eliminating the hot read and Moore was walloped.

The coach asserts Williams “has been around the quarterback” and didn't hesitate on if Williams has been giving his all."

It's...the...freaking...scheme!!

Edited January 8, 2016 by Nihilarian

[Kelly the Dog]

I agree, Nihilarian that people overestimate how often he didn't try. I have been saying that all year that it's pretty obvious when he is being asked to contain rush, and that was a large part of his frustration.

 

He did, however, give up too many times. Once is too many and he did it often. And even more problematic was that he was not getting pressure when he did actually try. That was a FAR bigger problem than his attitude. But he did not just skate the whole season or most plays like he is being accused of.

[Augie]

They. Did. Not. Last year they had by far the worse secondary in the league. And a terrible offense that was constantly turning the ball over.

Geno played an entire half against us like EJ played for 3-4 series in London. It was amazing stuff. And I LOVED it! Record setting atrocious!

[Nihilarian]

I agree, Nihilarian that people overestimate how often he didn't try. I have been saying that all year that it's pretty obvious when he is being asked to contain rush, and that was a large part of his frustration.

 

He did, however, give up too many times. Once is too many and he did it often. And even more problematic was that he was not getting pressure when he did actually try. That was a FAR bigger problem than his attitude. But he did not just skate the whole season or most plays like he is being accused of.

See, I myself can't really tell when he took a play off. I can recall watching the 2012 Buffalo Bills defense under Dave Wannstedt and it looked to me like the Bills had great difficulty in getting pressure on the QB just rushing the front four and not blitzing. This year in Rex Ryans 3-4 under it is even worse and Ryan blitzed so few times in many games this year. I think Rex Ryan lost some of the players in the Bills locker room just the same way he had with the Jets the last few years.

 

It's one thing for one player to publically state their disdain for something wrong with the team and then yes you could color him a malcontent. This year it's been all four D-linemen saying the very same thing only some not as vocal as others. Marcell Dareus has been complaining about what he is being asked to do since training camp. Jerry Hughes has been vocal about it as was Kyle Williams only not so much as the other two.

 

Some excerpts from an article by Stephen White, a retired NFL player who contributes articles to SB Nation. http://www.sbnation.com/2015/10/21/9581575/mario-williams-marcell-dareus-rex-ryan-buffalo-bills-defense

 

"The point is why would you not use your high priced, elite pass rushers (Kyle Willaims don't come cheap either, bro) to do what they do best? Especially when the Bills -- the guys who blitzed Luck 25 times on 55 pass dropbacks in Week 1 -- only blitzed the Bengals 13 times the whole damn game."

 

"Well, it seems like Rex Ryan is suddenly determined to put square pegs into round holes by putting his scheme over talent, at least he was Sunday. We know that the Bills have four dominant defensive linemen who fit best in an attacking 4-3 scheme. "

 

"Instead of putting his best players in the best positions to not only be successful and productive, Ryan seems to be clinging to his 3-4 roots a bit too fiercely and holding them back. While the Bills lined up 19 times in either an over or under alignment (4-3) against the Bengals, they lined up in a base version of a 3-4 defense 22 times (those numbers do not include third-down plays)."

 

"It's much worse than just Ryan having his best pass rushers dropping into coverage too much rather than actually, yanno, pass rushing."

 

"One edge guy, either Williams or Hughes, generally gets to stand up and either set the edge/pass rush on the edge or drop into coverage when they line up in a base 3-4. The other edge rusher often has to line up on the offensive tackle rather than being on an edge. That's pretty much the opposite of an ideal situation for most highly skilled pass rushers."

Even having Mario Williams, a human cheat code with his ridiculous combination of size, strength and athletic ability, two-gapping an offensive tackle is a pretty dumb thing to do on a regular basis because it's obvious he doesn't like doing it! I greatly admire Williams' game, but he's just not that guy who wants to be lined up head-up and wrestle with a 300-pounder all game.

That goes double for Hughes, who plays with plenty of heart, but doesn't have nearly the kind of size and strength you generally want in a 3-4 five technique defensive end."

"After watching this film, I have no idea who this version of Rex Ryan is. And that is unfortunate. As tacky and inadvisable as it is for players to call out their coaches to the media, I do think Ryan should do himself a favor and actually start listening to what they are saying. The reason is simple, they are not wrong."

I honestly don't know what happened in Rex Ryan's head between week one to week eleven to stop calling blitzes like he was so used to doing in past years. While continuing to put his superstar D-line players in a non-optimal position to make plays. All I do know is it was a certifiable disaster to misuse the Buffalo Bills defensive line players like he has this year.

All I can think of is he must have given Terry Pegula one hell of an excuse to retain his job as the Buffalo Bills HC.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Nihilarian

[3rdand12]

The Mario saga was a season long saga. It wasn't simply an "incident" type situation. It was rebellious behavior by a player who didn't agree with his role in a defense that he didn't want to play in. Mario is a talented me player who is also very headstrong. The HC let him stay on the field all season long despite all season long the insubordinate player played with a lack of effort.

 

It's not surprising that the Bills were an undisciplined team. It's not surprising that they were one of the most penalized teams in the league. It is not surprising that the team intelligence was dismal. That happens when the HC doesn't hold the players accountable for their play and conduct. The tough talking HC allowed himself to be trampled. That isn't leadership and good coaching. When you act in a manner not worthy of respect don't be surprised that you don't garner respect.

 

This wasn't a very complicated situation. You have an insubordinate player who quit on the team. There is only one appropriate response: get this arsehole off the field, and if necessary off the active roster. If it causes you to lose (his desultory play wasn't causing you to win) at least you haven't lost your dignity and the respect from the rest of the team.

I don't how i feel about setting Mario down. Because i dont think Mario ever ever said FU i am not playing.

Guy played a huge percentage of snaps. And you could see him checking the LBs often. Always , when Kyle was out. He would call over to Brown.

 

He still had great value.

Its just a shame.

 

Just sucked how it turned out

[Bill from NYC]

I agree, Nihilarian that people overestimate how often he didn't try. I have been saying that all year that it's pretty obvious when he is being asked to contain rush, and that was a large part of his frustration.

 

He did, however, give up too many times. Once is too many and he did it often. And even more problematic was that he was not getting pressure when he did actually try. That was a FAR bigger problem than his attitude. But he did not just skate the whole season or most plays like he is being accused of.

People also use misleading stats about how many times our Linemen actually dropped back into coverage.

 

In addition to more drop backs, players were often just standing around defending an edge or a zone, rather than showing any aggression.

 

We can pretend that he isn't, but the bottom line is that Ryan is a bad football coach and was a huge mistake. And, if his contract was not guaranteed he would be fired. Pegula IS rich, but he owes this buffoon approx. 22 million dollars whether he takes the field or not.

 

I hope that Whaley is smart enough to try to hire Pettine, but I suppose this too is a reach.

[NoSaint]

I am glad to see a little push back to the idea that Mario just totally took off every play all year narrative that was starting to build. I don't think he gave 100% the whole way but I it seemed to be getting into a little bit of people one upping each other in how extreme they could describe it

[eball]

We can pretend that he isn't, but the bottom line is that Ryan is a bad football coach and was a huge mistake. And, if his contract was not guaranteed he would be fired. Pegula IS rich, but he owes this buffoon approx. 22 million dollars whether he takes the field or not.

 

The number of people on the board saying this or something similar as if it is fact truly astounds me. Maybe I'm naive and just don't want to believe it, but next season is crucial for obvious reasons.

[GG]

I am glad to see a little push back to the idea that Mario just totally took off every play all year narrative that was starting to build. I don't think he gave 100% the whole way but I it seemed to be getting into a little bit of people one upping each other in how extreme they could describe it

 

But here's the thing, it's not the absolute number of plays where Mario was the goat, but the specific plays. The team's record is the embodiment of what it is, a middling team that was a few plays off a 6-10 record or a 10-6 record. You can literally point to a handful of plays that helped 3-4 of the losses, and unfortunately for Mario, he was smack in the middle of those. Again, for comparison's sake, nobody questioned Hughes' effort this season, despite a similar drop off in individual statistics.

[JohnC]

I am glad to see a little push back to the idea that Mario just totally took off every play all year narrative that was starting to build. I don't think he gave 100% the whole way but I it seemed to be getting into a little bit of people one upping each other in how extreme they could describe it

What's acceptable? Giving up on 10%, 20%, 30% of the plays? He was a shadow of what he was the prior two years. Certainly the scheme stunted his performance but it was evident that he didn't maintain consistent effort this season. That's the core of my criticism of him. He was put in an unfavorable/uncomfortable position by a dumbasss HC. His attitude in general in response to his situation was not professional. He was unhappy with the situation he was placed in and he showed it through his effort.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

 

But it isn't true, look at the defensive statistics of the Jets the last four years. They had the players, but were not a high level defense in the most important statistical areas. And we all saw that when we watched them--hot and cold, inconsistent, few big plays, not ready for prime time, etcetera--these were their most consistent attributes.

 

Takes a long time to learn! So sick of hearing this, so ludicrous that this is still being said. NOTHING to back that up, any more than there is to back up 'Rex is a defensive genius', just an illogical cop out. These are NFL players, most with significant experience.

 

As far as Rex's defense - what I have heard that backs up it is complicated and takes a long time to learn, are interviews from former players who have played in it. Stuff to the effect that man, was the hardest to learn but once you did.....

 

Still, I share your feeling of queaziness. If you're a band director or a choral leader and your musical group isn't able to follow your overly complex music, you don't just put out a bad performance, you get out your pencil and simplify the score until they can perform it well. If you're a teacher, you'd be on the hot seat if your entire AP Calculus class failed the test - especially if they were all A students in previous years who scored very well on the math section of the ACT. Something was seriously broken at OBD this fall, and ultimately that's on Rex. He had the players, especially to start the season.

 

I don't even buy the "injuries" thing, because the D was horrid at times before any injuries but McKelvin, and because Schwartz heavily rotated the DL last year while maintaining quality. Injuries hurt, no doubt, but the crap show preceded the injuries.

[JohnC]

 

But here's the thing, it's not the absolute number of plays where Mario was the goat, but the specific plays. The team's record is the embodiment of what it is, a middling team that was a few plays off a 6-10 record or a 10-6 record. You can literally point to a handful of plays that helped 3-4 of the losses, and unfortunately for Mario, he was smack in the middle of those. Again, for comparison's sake, nobody questioned Hughes' effort this season, despite a similar drop off in individual statistics.

Excellent point and post. The margin of error between success and failure is small. A sizable drop off by your most dynamic pass rusher is a consequential.matter.

 

What is not measurable but is a factor in a team sport is a team's attitude, reflected collectively and individually. It was apparent that Mario was not on board with what was being asked of him. I understand why he was disgruntled. But I don't accept the manner in which he responded through his lack of consistent effort. Whether it was intentional or not I can't say for sure. But what I can say for sure that it was clearly evident.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

 

But here's the thing, it's not the absolute number of plays where Mario was the goat, but the specific plays. The team's record is the embodiment of what it is, a middling team that was a few plays off a 6-10 record or a 10-6 record. You can literally point to a handful of plays that helped 3-4 of the losses, and unfortunately for Mario, he was smack in the middle of those. Again, for comparison's sake, nobody questioned Hughes' effort this season, despite a similar drop off in individual statistics.

 

The thing is GG, you can do that with every football team and several players, almost every game. A handful of specific plays are the turning point in almost every game.

 

With his outspoken comments, followed by the "anonymous player" blast (I hate anonymous shite), Mario drew attention to himself and made himself a lightening rod for the team's "defensive problems" vs. "Mr Big Stuff" and others whose impact was lowered or who also missed critical plays. Nobody questioned Hughes effort, but d*mn his penalties at the wrong time swung the game at times. And so forth.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Hopeful