yungmack Posted January 5, 2016 Posted January 5, 2016 I think that happens to be the point where you are MOST egregiously off-base in the discussion. To start with...........produce even a SHRED of evidence that McCoy had been requesting a re-negotiated deal to return to Philly or would hold out. Anything? Of course not. He was under contract and had ALREADY got the fat up front money on THAT deal. I don't care who paid it......a lot of his services for 2015-2017 had already been paid for. Also........if the Bills intended to re-negotiate his deal when they traded for him.......why did it reach the media that he wasn't coming without a new deal? Did the Bills forget to mention to him that they KNEW trading for him meant re-negotiating his contract. The truth is that there was 100% chance that McCoy would have played this season under his existing contract. I seem to recall McCoy was extremely unhappy about coming to Buffalo right after the trade was made. Then a few days later, a new fat deal was reached and happy ol' Shady was suddenly only too delighted to come to Buffalo.
ganesh Posted January 5, 2016 Posted January 5, 2016 You just cut 5 starters that you have to replace. They have already been replaced in 2015.
BillsVet Posted January 5, 2016 Posted January 5, 2016 How much was Mario Williams worth? How much was Marcel Dareus worth? How much was Leodis McKelvin (he mad $600,000) less than McCoy this year. His contract isn't impeding the Bills to do anything, I don't understand where all of this is coming from. There are plenty of ways to adjust the cap by releasing players or restructuring contracts. All teams do this on a regular basis. I do agree with you that McCoy isn't a one cut back but he's a player that teams have to account for on every down because he can do it all. He only counted for $5.5mil this year and $7.6 this year and $8.8mil in 2017. Check Buffalo's current cap space and then do the math assuming Mario is cut. It ain't much even with another 10M added to the cap considering Glenn and Incognito need decent sized deals. By the way, Jim Overdorf can only do one contract at a time, so restructuring 2-3 players by the time UFA takes place might be difficult for him. This roster isn't 1-2 players away from being an 11 win team. They have to hit a few home runs this off-season and Doug Whaley hasn't done that in 3+ years on the job.
Saxum Posted January 5, 2016 Posted January 5, 2016 U obviously haven't read any of my posts in the past. I never expect much from this team. And obviously it is what you want hence the cuts you want.
John from Riverside Posted January 5, 2016 Posted January 5, 2016 The point is that the Bills are not limited by the cap in terms of what they can or will do, at least no more than any other team trying to contend. They can't pursue every option, no team can, but If there's a guy out there they absolutely believe will put them over the top they'll go get him and will find the room to make it work. They've shown this mentality to be true in their (very brief) tenure so far, from the Pegulas down to Whaley and Rex. The cap won't prevent that kind of signing because there are always ways to make it work. Star players have to get paid. And Shady is undeniably a star player who makes a difference maker on the field. His cap number is high and we can debate the devaluation of the RB position all we want (and I'd agree the position has been devalued), but his cap number is not going to prevent the Bills from signing the one or two guys they need to bridge that gap between not-that-far-off and actual contenders. There's money and room to make moves but the team is choosing to spend it resigning their own this off season, which includes Gilmore (at a more reasonable cap number once he's extended, freeing up even more room). That's the plan, it's been the plan since the conclusion of last off season -- which is good since I, like you, agree they're not really far off. But they would be if they lose some of their core, young players. Thankfully McCoy's contract won't prevent that from happening. I really dont see the problem because Whaley has already told us to ignore the 1st week of free agency and has said it numerous times We will sign our own players (the ones we consider core) and draft
FireChan Posted January 5, 2016 Posted January 5, 2016 I really dont see the problem because Whaley has already told us to ignore the 1st week of free agency and has said it numerous times We will sign our own players (the ones we consider core) and draft Because he splurged in free agency and used a ton of cap. Talk about circular logic. The loss of cap space on overpaid RB's and TE's is no problem because we already said we'd have no cap space because we spent the money on overpaid RB's and TE's.
Nihilarian Posted January 5, 2016 Posted January 5, 2016 It further illustrates that last year's spending spree came with a price that some are realizing. Cap space is a commodity that must be managed efficiently and the Bills have done a poor job of that over the years. This is my major beef with Whaley. He's been in win-now mode since RW passed without a playoff appearance to show for it. There's no way anyone can say the team has had a blueprint for building a perennial contender. Making trades into the top 10 and spending big on free agents or traded for RB's is not a strategy. Eventually the go-for broke method means you pay up and I suspect that happens in 2016. The fact that the Bills haven't made the playoffs with all this outrageous spending and nobody cares. Like 100 million for a DE when the team also needed upgrades at other positions. Three draft picks for a WR when they could have stood at the same spot and still gotten that elite WR. Enormous high dollar contracts for an RB when they are supposedly easy to find. Big money in free agency for a TE! Big money for a pass rushing DT & DE only to see them used in gap control and dropping into pass coverage. The thing that really bothers me though is nobody else notices that this GM, scouting Dept, FO can't seem to find any of these elite players in the draft!! A perfect example is that "IF" the team had not drafted Sammy Watkins they would have used that #1 pick on TE Eric Ebron and not on Odell Beckham Jr. I mean WTF! Why do Bills fans cherish this GM like he is gold when in fact he is quietly killing this franchise. Doug Whaley had a great deal of influence over the new owners to hire Rex Ryan. But then, it was Ryan who finally found the team a decent QB to develop, and an actual high-quality OG that Whaley couldn't find. Who thinks Glenn is going to get 13 mill per from the Bills or Incognito will see anything close to 8 mill per. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see both walk to a different team because of the stigma Buddy Nix left the team. Like OG's are a dime a dozen or that any OT can play OG well. Just find the huge bodies to fill a spot.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 5, 2016 Posted January 5, 2016 I know we're all supposed to hate Mike Rodak, but I think this piece is helpful for Bills fans...it also indirectly brings the dubious nature of McCoy's contract back up for discussion I know that's been done to death, but the article shows why in better detail: http://espn.go.com/blog/buffalo-bills/post/_/id/23161/answering-key-bills-2016-free-agency-and-salary-cap-questions I agree with most here that on a player-for-player basis, the trade worked (unless someone can convince me that Kiko would have lit it up here this year- I haven't seen anyone make that point). But the generous extension was unnecessary and ties our hands going forward. they basically overpaid McCoy to get him to report. Now we have a problem. The left side of our OL is going to get a big raise one way or the other. If/when we cut Mario, we probably have enough money to keep them, but not much more. McCoy's big cap number is a problem. If everyone can put their torches and pitchforks down long enough to accept that the defense could improve with a few new pieces, you could have some hope for next year- only now our options are limited due to cap restraints. Whaley's getting a chance to sort this out, but he must use better judgment going forward. We also need a HELL of a draft to fill some of these holes. This past year looks like Whaley's best so far, he'll need to prove it wasn't a fluke. I still think we're positioned to be BETTER next year, but the biggest obstacle is not Rex, it's our tight cap situation. What I don't get is why single out McCoy? We have some cap issues, for reals, but McCoy is like the 6th highest payed player on the team. Mario Williams is big $$ guy #1, followed by Dareus, Clay, Gilmore, and Kyle Williams. I "get" paying McCoy. Roman has shown that he wants to run his legs off and he knows how to use him effectively. But all that money to DLman so they can drop back in pass coverage and be ineffective as pass rushers makes little sense.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 5, 2016 Posted January 5, 2016 Cut Mario Williams, Kyle Williams, Aaron Williams, Dan Carpenter, Leodis McKelvin, EJ Manuel, Cyrus Kouandjio, Marquis Goodwin and we should be in decent shape. Do you actually understand the cap hit and dead money involved with these guys? Quick, what is it? For example, Manuel's salary is guaranteed. Cut him, and we pay him anyway, take a $2.8M cap hit and save $0 against the cap, while hiring a new backup QB who had better not be some unseasoned green-behind-ears rookie who'll stumble and wear out his welcome when TT inevitably gets hurt. Cyrus Kouandjio - we take a bigger cap hit ($0.9M) than his 2016 salary ($0.8M) if we cut him, then we need to cough up the $$ to sign a backup tackle. SMH Not to mention the notion that cutting and replacing 1/2 to 2/3 of starting DL and 1/2 the starting DB (when healthy) makes so much sense, especially as Aaron Williams and Kyle Williams may have injury protection written into their contracts - most vets paid in the top 10-ish of a roster do.
BillsVet Posted January 5, 2016 Posted January 5, 2016 I really dont see the problem because Whaley has already told us to ignore the 1st week of free agency and has said it numerous times We will sign our own players (the ones we consider core) and draft Buddy Nix told everyone he'd be sleeping during free agency in 2010 and focused on re-signing people. Until they were a combined 10-22 in 2010 and 2011 and they went out and signed Mario and Mark Anderson in 2012 UFA. None of it worked because the GM was inadequate. Now his deputy is GM and telling us the same thing. What matters is the person picking the players. Because you can't pin this all on Rex, though the HC shares fault here.
Deranged Rhino Posted January 5, 2016 Posted January 5, 2016 Buddy Nix told everyone he'd be sleeping during free agency in 2010 and focused on re-signing people. Until they were a combined 10-22 in 2010 and 2011 and they went out and signed Mario and Mark Anderson in 2012 UFA. None of it worked because the GM was inadequate. Now his deputy is GM and telling us the same thing. What matters is the person picking the players. Because you can't pin this all on Rex, though the HC shares fault here. This roster compared to 2010-2012 is inarguably more talented and unlike those other squads has an owner willing to spend to make it even more competitive. You're stuck in the past and using poor examples to make your narrative fit.
BrooklynBills Posted January 5, 2016 Posted January 5, 2016 Do you actually understand the cap hit and dead money involved with these guys? Quick, what is it? For example, Manuel's salary is guaranteed. Cut him, and we pay him anyway, take a $2.8M cap hit and save $0 against the cap, while hiring a new backup QB who had better not be some unseasoned green-behind-ears rookie who'll stumble and wear out his welcome when TT inevitably gets hurt. Cyrus Kouandjio - we take a bigger cap hit ($0.9M) than his 2016 salary ($0.8M) if we cut him, then we need to cough up the $$ to sign a backup tackle. SMH Not to mention the notion that cutting and replacing 1/2 to 2/3 of starting DL and 1/2 the starting DB (when healthy) makes so much sense, especially as Aaron Williams and Kyle Williams may have injury protection written into their contracts - most vets paid in the top 10-ish of a roster do. Manuel has offset language in his contract so if he signs on with another team, the Bills and their cap are refunded with amount he signs for.
Bill from NYC Posted January 5, 2016 Posted January 5, 2016 I don't think(?) I ever said he was wrong. I have enjoyed having McCoy around. The only place I might have disagreed is that I seem to think he's still a better player than badol. But this is the 2nd year in a row that injuries have taken a big bite out of his production. So it's hard to argue the notion we're living on very expensive borrowed time with this guy.My post was in no way directed at you. I'm sorry if it seemed to be. Imo, the fact that Shady is a good player is one of the few things that the entire board seems to agree on. The cap space is another issue. Not the money btw. I am not a jealous person, but it's hard for me to feel sorry for a person with 10 billion or so dollars, unless it was over health or family matters. But the point Badol has been trying to make is tough to dispute. When a player has guaranteed cash like this, you are stuck with him for better or worse. RBs don't last. Shady has lots of miles and is already nicked up. It's a tough position. Karlos is probably 2x as strong as Shady and who knows how long he can last? GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
TUBSTER Posted January 5, 2016 Posted January 5, 2016 Did Boobie get hurt, too? I thought I saw him in for a couple of plays. No he was in for some plays.
Luxy312 Posted January 5, 2016 Posted January 5, 2016 Going through a short list of players here that had virtually no impact this season, Mario Williams, Kyle Williams, Manny Lawson, Kraig Urbik, Jarius Wynn, Boobie Dixon. While they would take a cap penalty hit, the net cap savings would be $24.475 million. That's plenty to sign Incognito and Glenn. Now Gilmore would concern me as he wants a new deal as well, but the last year of his contract is over $11 million. So could they get a cap friendly deal done with him as well and turn around and give Tyrod a new deal? I think the whole McCoy thing is overblown honestly. McCoy isn't going to bite this team in the butt any time soon.
Bill from NYC Posted January 5, 2016 Posted January 5, 2016 Going through a short list of players here that had virtually no impact this season, Mario Williams, Kyle Williams, Manny Lawson, Kraig Urbik, Jarius Wynn, Boobie Dixon. While they would take a cap penalty hit, the net cap savings would be $24.475 million. That's plenty to sign Incognito and Glenn. Now Gilmore would concern me as he wants a new deal as well, but the last year of his contract is over $11 million. So could they get a cap friendly deal done with him as well and turn around and give Tyrod a new deal? I think the whole McCoy thing is overblown honestly. McCoy isn't going to bite this team in the butt any time soon.A little off topic, but why are you and countless others so ready to part ways with Urbik? It doesn't appear that doing so would save much cap space. http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/kraig-urbik/ I don't think he is a tremendous player by any stretch, but who do we have that is better? Miller? I think not. Richardson? Please. I would like to see them keep him AND draft another guard. Jmo.
BillsVet Posted January 5, 2016 Posted January 5, 2016 This roster compared to 2010-2012 is inarguably more talented and unlike those other squads has an owner willing to spend to make it even more competitive. You're stuck in the past and using poor examples to make your narrative fit. I would hope the roster is better now...they spent more in UFA last off-season (~90M) than any other team in the NFL. The year before they traded into the top 5 to draft Watkins and had 3 drafts total to add talent. Anyone should be able to improve on the Buddy Nix GM years. Yet, they're a .500 team in 2014-15. And they are smack up against the likely cap ceiling already in 2016, so the owner's willingness to spend isn't the issue. It's managing the dollars they've had to work with, which is my point all along. Is this team being built through the draft, or are they going the Dan Snyder route?. The goal isn't to build talent at individual positions, but if it were I'm sure the Bills qualify for the off-season spending award. The W-L column is another matter.
Luxy312 Posted January 5, 2016 Posted January 5, 2016 (edited) A little off topic, but why are you and countless others so ready to part ways with Urbik? It doesn't appear that doing so would save much cap space. http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/kraig-urbik/ I don't think he is a tremendous player by any stretch, but who do we have that is better? Miller? I think not. Richardson? Please. I would like to see them keep him AND draft another guard. Jmo. Urbik will cost $2.625 million if kept and save $1.775 million if cut. Why am I ready to part ways with him? I don't think he's that good. Why would I want to see the team pay $2.625 million for a player that's not any good? Miller is better IMO. So we can agree to disagree here, but there's nothing factual in either of our opinions of Urbik's worth. I just don't think a backup guard should be paid $2.6 million. Edited January 5, 2016 by Luxy312
NickelCity Posted January 5, 2016 Posted January 5, 2016 I'm just worried about the sheer amount of starting LBs this team needs.
John from Riverside Posted January 5, 2016 Posted January 5, 2016 I'm just worried about the sheer amount of starting LBs this team needs. Its not so bad if you think about it...... Hughes is a LB in Rex scheme.....Lawson was productive and should be retained.....Preston Brown should be moved outside They need a beast MLB who is in on every tackle to make it all work.....Marcel goes to DE.....bring in a true nose tackle like Knighton who worked on a 4 million deal last year Draft a MLB in the 1st round of this draft. That kid from Alabama will do just fine.
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