dollars 2 donuts Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 #1- it's not wise to invest big money at the RB position. too late for the bills to undo mccoys deal. #2- the bills have way to many needs (about 10 positions) and not enough cap room. #3- our schedule gets harder for 2016 This.
jester43 Posted January 4, 2016 Author Posted January 4, 2016 Sorry, youre wrong. All moves must be made today. As OP so clearly puts it: "NOW" is when McCoy's contract bites us. Whaley tried signing a number of players today, but we weren't allowed to sign any of them because of the cap situation right now. It will not change, and there is nothing we can do to make it better. i never said it couldn't be made better. making it "better" is not the same as making it good.
Maddog69 Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 My feeling about the salary cap is this: If you have an owner willing to spend money, the cap will not be an issue. They can move money around on several players. If they sign Gilmore to an extension they can bring his cap # down significantly. If we were still owned by Ralph, I would be concerned. I think the Pegula's have shown that money won't be a sticking point if there is a player they want/need to sign. That's said, I don't expect them to be big players in UFA this year. I think they will do their best to re-sign Incognito and Glenn and to sign Gilmore to a long term deal. After that, I think they will be selective in FA to add pieces that fit.
Deranged Rhino Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 i never said it couldn't be made better. making it "better" is not the same as making it good. You do realize that every NFL team, at least every competitive NFL team, will spend right up to the cap each and every year, correct? And each and every year those same teams will rework contracts and make moves to keep the team operating right at the limit of the cap. That's the only way to build competitive rosters in the modern NFL. There will NEVER be a year where a contending team also has 20+ million in cap room during the season, that's just not the reality of the modern NFL. So, knowing that, how do you determine which adjective to assign the Bills' cap situation? Yes, they are currently projected to be over the cap (by less than a million), but that is meaningless because everyone knows that they will free up 12+ million in cap room with one move alone. So, does 12 million under the cap make you feel better about the Bills' cap situation? I'd say taking comfort in that number is as silly as fretting over the Bills being one million over the cap right now. Why? Because the cap is fluid. It changes (and increases) regularly, players get moved, new players come in, the draft keeps labor cheap for 4 (sometimes 5) years -- all of which gives NFL teams the necessary tools to keep their rosters out of "cap jail". I'm curious what cap figure would make you comfortable, especially considering the Bills are always going to be right up against the cap by the time the season kicks off... it's not going to change unless they're massively rebuilding -- which they most assuredly will NOT be doing this coming off season.
BillsVet Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 I understand your frustration but it's hard to be that upset about the job Whaley has done. Compared to the years before when Buffalo would be 20mil plus under the cap and just wouldn't spend the money to get good players. I like Whaley and I actually applaud him for actually trying and landing talent here. People tend to forget that when your team hasn't been to the playoffs you have to spend more to get good players. Every trade that he's made has worked out IMO. The main point of this thread is how much based on cap hit was McCoy worth to the 2015 Bills? He started 12 times and rushed for more than 80 in half those games. If he was worth 2 wins this year that's a tall price for a RB. And looking forward, as others have pointed out, his contract is impeding their ability to make moves to improve other areas of the team. I also don't believe that McCoy is suited to their style of play, which seems more built for a 1 cut guy and not someone who bounces it outside and heads for the sideline.
BADOLBILZ Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 I know we're all supposed to hate Mike Rodak, but I think this piece is helpful for Bills fans...it also indirectly brings the dubious nature of McCoy's contract back up for discussion I know that's been done to death, but the article shows why in better detail: http://espn.go.com/blog/buffalo-bills/post/_/id/23161/answering-key-bills-2016-free-agency-and-salary-cap-questions I agree with most here that on a player-for-player basis, the trade worked (unless someone can convince me that Kiko would have lit it up here this year- I haven't seen anyone make that point). But the generous extension was unnecessary and ties our hands going forward. they basically overpaid McCoy to get him to report. Now we have a problem. The left side of our OL is going to get a big raise one way or the other. If/when we cut Mario, we probably have enough money to keep them, but not much more. McCoy's big cap number is a problem. If everyone can put their torches and pitchforks down long enough to accept that the defense could improve with a few new pieces, you could have some hope for next year- only now our options are limited due to cap restraints. Whaley's getting a chance to sort this out, but he must use better judgment going forward. We also need a HELL of a draft to fill some of these holes. This past year looks like Whaley's best so far, he'll need to prove it wasn't a fluke. I still think we're positioned to be BETTER next year, but the biggest obstacle is not Rex, it's our tight cap situation. I think it comes into play when thinking about making long term deals with OUTSIDE free agents this offseason......so in that regard I agree. It becomes a real problem at the end of next season when it's time to move on from McCoy with 3 years still left on his deal......resulting in a bunch of dead money for a devalued position. There are positions that you accept dead money at in hopes of getting a star player........QB, Pass Rusher......even CB and WR.........those are positions that directly affect the passing game.............but RB you just shouldn't go there. As has been pointed out.........McCoy HAD AN EXISTING CONTRACT......he had no leverage in Philly coming off a year where he produced a low ypc and few scores. There was simply NO REASON WHATSOEVER to give him a re-worked 5 year deal.......especially with 2/3 of the money being guaranteed.
Maury Ballstein Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 Having a good Rb next year is gonna bite us in the butt ? Ok. I'll order one bitten butt. You run w your team w Giuseppe/Gillespie/McGillicuty and savings.
Deranged Rhino Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 As has been pointed out.........McCoy HAD AN EXISTING CONTRACT......he had no leverage in Philly coming off a year where he produced a low ypc and few scores. There was simply NO REASON WHATSOEVER to give him a re-worked 5 year deal.......especially with 2/3 of the money being guaranteed. We will forever disagree here. There was zero chance McCoy was going to play this season in Philly, Buffalo, or anywhere, with less than a million guaranteed left on his deal. He was going to hold out for a new deal -- even if that meant missing this season. He had plenty of leverage because he has value in the league that's on tape.
Observer Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 (edited) McCoy's contract hurts the Bills for sure but he is an impact player. I can live with paying him a couple million more. The Bills need Rex Ryan scheme disciples. I don't love Rex but I'm all for building a team that will do what he wants. Pegula is right: Constant change is a formula for failure. Bryant, LAwson, Rambo...a few other second tier guys started to emerge as "Rex Ryan guys" as the year progressed. NEed more of them for next year especially at LB. Edited January 4, 2016 by Observer
BADOLBILZ Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 (edited) We will forever disagree here. There was zero chance McCoy was going to play this season in Philly, Buffalo, or anywhere, with less than a million guaranteed left on his deal. He was going to hold out for a new deal -- even if that meant missing this season. He had plenty of leverage because he has value in the league that's on tape. I think that happens to be the point where you are MOST egregiously off-base in the discussion. To start with...........produce even a SHRED of evidence that McCoy had been requesting a re-negotiated deal to return to Philly or would hold out. Anything? Of course not. He was under contract and had ALREADY got the fat up front money on THAT deal. I don't care who paid it......a lot of his services for 2015-2017 had already been paid for. Also........if the Bills intended to re-negotiate his deal when they traded for him.......why did it reach the media that he wasn't coming without a new deal? Did the Bills forget to mention to him that they KNEW trading for him meant re-negotiating his contract. The truth is that there was 100% chance that McCoy would have played this season under his existing contract. Edited January 4, 2016 by #BADOL
billsfan714 Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 (edited) Anybody who thinks we dont have cap issues doesnt know what they are talking about. Make some cuts and you still have to have money to for a rookie pool, try and re-sign Cordy and Ritchie and keep some RFA. The only free agents I see us signing are minimum wage street free agents. Doug is going to need his greatest draft next season. Edited January 4, 2016 by billsfan714
Deranged Rhino Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 I think that happens to be the point where you are MOST egregiously off-base in the discussion. To start with...........produce even a SHRED of evidence that McCoy had been requesting a re-negotiated deal to return to Philly or would hold out. Anything? Of course not. He was under contract and had ALREADY got the fat up front money on THAT deal. I don't care who paid it......a lot of his services for 2015-2017 had already been paid for. Also........if the Bills intended to re-negotiate his deal when they traded for him.......why did it reach the media that he wasn't coming without a new deal? Did the Bills forget to mention to him that they KNEW trading for him meant re-negotiating his contract. The truth is that there was 100% chance that McCoy would have played this season under his existing contract. There were a lot of reports stating he was going to hold out once he got traded. There were even rumblings before the trade in Philly he was asking for an extension while other rumors swirled about the Eagles asking him to take a pay cut. All of these rumors were referenced in numerous articles that came out last March. https://twitter.com/JasonLaCanfora/status/572910368965697536?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw http://fansided.com/2015/03/03/lesean-mccoy-buffalo-bills-contract/
BarleyNY Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 It further illustrates that last year's spending spree came with a price that some are realizing. Cap space is a commodity that must be managed efficiently and the Bills have done a poor job of that over the years. This is my major beef with Whaley. He's been in win-now mode since RW passed without a playoff appearance to show for it. There's no way anyone can say the team has had a blueprint for building a perennial contender. Making trades into the top 10 and spending big on free agents or traded for RB's is not a strategy. Eventually the go-for broke method means you pay up and I suspect that happens in 2016. I've had the same gripe. It makes sense to do what he did if a team is poised to challenge for a title in the short term, but not the long. That clearly wasn't the case here. The lack of a proven QB alone should have precluded spending that way. Any GM can bring in talent that he significantly overpays for. Finding value consistently in the draft and free agency is another matter. Whaley has primarily done the former.
Formerly Allan in MD Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 They overpaid McCoy not to get him to report but to be happy being a Bill. In some rare instances you have to bite the bullet.
BADOLBILZ Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 There were a lot of reports stating he was going to hold out once he got traded. There were even rumblings before the trade in Philly he was asking for an extension while other rumors swirled about the Eagles asking him to take a pay cut. All of these rumors were referenced in numerous articles that came out last March. https://twitter.com/JasonLaCanfora/status/572910368965697536?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw http://fansided.com/2015/03/03/lesean-mccoy-buffalo-bills-contract/ Those aren't supporting links. What you linked was exactly what I said...........that McCoy and his agent floated it out that they were going to ask for a new deal or not report. Of course they were going to ask for a new deal once he had been traded. If the Bills put Jerry Hughes on the block and traded him this offseason it's a given that his agent would request guaranteed money for his pain and suffering.........even though he just got paid less than a year ago. That's how it's done in the NFL. But the smart team tells the agent that they signed that right away when they took that signing bonus at the start of that contract. It's not like McCoy was going into a walk year.
BrooklynBills Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 You just cut 5 starters that you have to replace. We can sign 3 quality starters with money we save from cutting Mario Williams alone so the whole "you just cut 5 starters" thing is a bit extremist. We got very little production from Mario, Leodis, and A. Williams all year. Kyle Williams played 6 games. The other guys are dead weight or the kicker. Not to mention the many other cuts we can make to free up more space like Urbik(backup G), Dixon, Manny Lawson, Corey Graham, Duke Williams... etc. Unlike previous years, in theory, we have a few homegrown cornerstone players to build around(Gilmore, Dareus, Watkins, Hughes) and add lower priced quality FAs to fill out the roster and build a better team. What the FO decides to do is another thing all together. But the Bills are in a fine position to cut some dead weight and overpriced players off the team and improve going forward.
K-9 Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 Can someone point me to video evidence that supports the assertion that Kyle Williams is "over the hill?" And I don't mean showing me the one play he gets beat vs. the 10 that he doesn't. I want to see 10 plays where he's getting his ass handed to him because the 10 plays where he's readily handing someone else his ass are readily available. GO BILLS!!!
dave mcbride Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 Can someone point me to video evidence that supports the assertion that Kyle Williams is "over the hill?" And I don't mean showing me the one play he gets beat vs. the 10 that he doesn't. I want to see 10 plays where he's getting his ass handed to him because the 10 plays where he's readily handing someone else his ass are readily available. GO BILLS!!! I strongly suspect that he'll be on the team next year. Not a bad injury, and he was playing well beforehand. When contemplating cutting him, you can be sure that Whaley and Rex will ask, "Well yeah, but who are we going to replace him with, and how much will that person cost?"
BADOLBILZ Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 They overpaid McCoy not to get him to report but to be happy being a Bill. In some rare instances you have to bite the bullet. You have a knack for making a bad point........then trying to cover it with a truth in hopes that it will somehow make the bad point into a truth. It doesn't. The rare instance that you have to bite the bullet is NOT for a RB in the modern NFL. You can find good production at that position ALL OVER the draft. And good production is all you need........this is not news. When I pointed out that the top rushers in the NFL were all big backs this season.........someone else tried to shout me down by pointing out that less than half of them were on playoff teams. I know! That's the point.......it's a passing league!
BuffaloBillsForever Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 (edited) We can sign 3 quality starters with money we save from cutting Mario Williams alone so the whole "you just cut 5 starters" thing is a bit extremist. We got very little production from Mario, Leodis, and A. Williams all year. Kyle Williams played 6 games. The other guys are dead weight or the kicker. Not to mention the many other cuts we can make to free up more space like Urbik(backup G), Dixon, Manny Lawson, Corey Graham, Duke Williams... etc. Unlike previous years, in theory, we have a few homegrown cornerstone players to build around(Gilmore, Dareus, Watkins, Hughes) and add lower priced quality FAs to fill out the roster and build a better team. What the FO decides to do is another thing all together. But the Bills are in a fine position to cut some dead weight and overpriced players off the team and improve going forward. If you sign 3 quality starters to replace those 5 starters you released, the Bills would have no money to sign Glenn and Incognito. The Bills are severely handcuffed next year because of how poorly they managed the cap. Would you want to go into next season with Wood, Miller, Mills, and Cyrus as your offensive line? Edited January 4, 2016 by BuffaloBillsForever
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