Robert Woods

[P51]

 

Good info on the success rate for the surgery, appreciate the link. At least that makes me a little less concerned about Sammy.

 

On Woods reception rates:

 

2013: 46.5%

2014: 62.5%

2015: 58.75%

 

These aren't great. And neither are Woods' DYAR numbers:

 

2013: #72 (to be fair, the entire Bills WR group was bad, but a negative DVOA isn't great)

2014: #64, behind Chris Hogan

2015: #79, behind Chris Hogan

 

Everything I have read and ever heard on the Jones Fracture Surgery implies that the main issue is re-fracturing it by coming back too early, similar to Tony Romo returning too early from his broken collar bone. So IMO for Sammy, they need to make sure its healed and not get him back before its ready. If my memory serves me, about 7% of athletes who had this surgery re-broke it and needed a 2nd surgery.

 

As for Woods, I thought Vic Carucci summarized his situation very well in his article regarding Sammy this morning: "Who else is going to consistently catch those kinds of throws from Tyrod Taylor? Woods? Doubtful. In Greg Roman's offense, he became mainly a blocker last season. His greatest trait as a receiver is the ability to run precise routes, especially on intermediate throws, but that doesn't carry much value for the way the Bills operate. Otherwise, Hogan would still be on the team."

Basically, Tyrod and the passing offense is a vertical offense that does not utilize Roberts strengths. Hypothetically speaking; Reggie Wayne would be as underutilized in this offense, and viewed similarly. Clearly Robert isnt Reggie, but he's not that far off skill wise IMO. I would love to see the DVOA and DYAR numbers for the games where Orton was the QB throwing to Woods, because his reception rate nearly doubled in those games from the numbers I did. I'd bet Woods would have much better numbers in general in NE or NOLA, or in a WC system, with a true passing QB.

[CommonCents]

 

Everything I have read and ever heard on the Jones Fracture Surgery implies that the main issue is re-fracturing it by coming back too early, similar to Tony Romo returning too early from his broken collar bone. So IMO for Sammy, they need to make sure its healed and not get him back before its ready. If my memory serves me, about 7% of athletes who had this surgery re-broke it and needed a 2nd surgery.

 

As for Woods, I thought Vic Carucci summarized his situation very well in his article regarding Sammy this morning: "Who else is going to consistently catch those kinds of throws from Tyrod Taylor? Woods? Doubtful. In Greg Roman's offense, he became mainly a blocker last season. His greatest trait as a receiver is the ability to run precise routes, especially on intermediate throws, but that doesn't carry much value for the way the Bills operate. Otherwise, Hogan would still be on the team."

Basically, Tyrod and the passing offense is a vertical offense that does not utilize Roberts strengths. Hypothetically speaking; Reggie Wayne would be as underutilized in this offense, and viewed similarly. Clearly Robert isnt Reggie, but he's not that far off skill wise IMO. I would love to see the DVOA and DYAR numbers for the games where Orton was the QB throwing to Woods, because his reception rate nearly doubled in those games from the numbers I did. I'd bet Woods would have much better numbers in general in NE or NOLA, or in a WC system, with a true passing QB.

Your rates on the Jones Fracture are off quite a bit, some places I found athlete requiring a second surgery 20 percent of the time. This one i am going to link has 75 percent of Jones Fractures healing to 100 percent. It's a terrible spot for an injury, this link goes into depth on why.

 

http://www.footvitals.com/bones/jones-fracture.html

[YattaOkasan]

 

Everything I have read and ever heard on the Jones Fracture Surgery implies that the main issue is re-fracturing it by coming back too early, similar to Tony Romo returning too early from his broken collar bone. So IMO for Sammy, they need to make sure its healed and not get him back before its ready. If my memory serves me, about 7% of athletes who had this surgery re-broke it and needed a 2nd surgery.

 

As for Woods, I thought Vic Carucci summarized his situation very well in his article regarding Sammy this morning: "Who else is going to consistently catch those kinds of throws from Tyrod Taylor? Woods? Doubtful. In Greg Roman's offense, he became mainly a blocker last season. His greatest trait as a receiver is the ability to run precise routes, especially on intermediate throws, but that doesn't carry much value for the way the Bills operate. Otherwise, Hogan would still be on the team."

Basically, Tyrod and the passing offense is a vertical offense that does not utilize Roberts strengths. Hypothetically speaking; Reggie Wayne would be as underutilized in this offense, and viewed similarly. Clearly Robert isnt Reggie, but he's not that far off skill wise IMO. I would love to see the DVOA and DYAR numbers for the games where Orton was the QB throwing to Woods, because his reception rate nearly doubled in those games from the numbers I did. I'd bet Woods would have much better numbers in general in NE or NOLA, or in a WC system, with a true passing QB.

Has there been confirmation of a Jones Fracture? If not I would be very hesitant to diagnose him with that injury considering he played (very well too) the second half of the season on it.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

 

 

Oh.......so the 10.8 yards per catch average in 2014 was more reflective of his downfield prowess?

 

I'm no Hogan fan, but just off the top of my head I remember that he caught long bomb TD's versus Miami and Tennessee and another sure one went right thru his hands against Dallas.

 

Woods had none of those......though I recall him catching a roughly 20 yard TD on a perfectly thrown pass from EJ. Those are the kind of throws Woods needs to be effective......he's JAG.

 

If you don't remember these things then that might explain your shaky takes in the past year plus.

Hogan and Woods are nearly the same NFL value.

 

-Both 4.5 40 guys.

-Woods more fluid in breaks

-Hogan a little more size and tiny bit faster

-Both run good routes, woods better at medium, hogan gets open quicker

-Both have hit deep balls, but it's usually on blown coverages, they aren't taking the top off anyone

-Neither have regularly made contested catches

- hogan overachieved his draft status

-woods lived up to/ slightly underachieved

- both are filler players, but neither filled Sammys role, (Harvin was the only one I saw even come close to that)

-NFL secondary's are not game planning how to take hogan or woods out of the game

[P51]

Your rates on the Jones Fracture are off quite a bit, some places I found athlete requiring a second surgery 20 percent of the time. This one i am going to link has 75 percent of Jones Fractures healing to 100 percent. It's a terrible spot for an injury, this link goes into depth on why.

 

http://www.footvitals.com/bones/jones-fracture.html

 

My rates are pretty consistent across all the literature I have read about Jones Fractures as it pertains to professional athletes, no where did it state that a Jones Fracture ended a players career and the re-fracture rate was around 7% I thought, this research article has it at 4-12%:

Despite appropriate operative treatment along with advances in technique and implants, nonunion and refracture continue to occur in 4% to 12% of athletes.

Return to Play in National Football League Players After Operative Jones Fracture Treatment (PDF Download Available). Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281683456_Return_to_Play_in_National_Football_League_Players_After_Operative_Jones_Fracture_Treatment [accessed May 20, 2016].

 

My research based article is based on NFL players having a screw inserted to expedite the healing process. The one you mention is a general information article about for the general public the discusses the relative rates for the general public after other treatment options: " Jones fracture surgery is usually performed if the fracture is displaced, if it does not heal properly, or if the problem is chronic." The two articles are discussing the same thing, but with completely different circumstances. There is a huge difference between Sammy/Julio or any other NFL player and Joe Schmoe.

 

In this case series, we report the results of 25 consecutive NFL players who underwent percutaneous fixation of an acute proximal fifth metatarsal fracture with an indication-specific screw.

Return to Play in National Football League Players After Operative Jones Fracture Treatment (PDF Download Available). Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281683456_Return_to_Play_in_National_Football_League_Players_After_Operative_Jones_Fracture_Treatment [accessed May 20, 2016].

 

VS.

 

A Jones fracture is often mistaken for a sprain or an avulsion fracture. This is why it’s important to have your injury diagnosed as soon as possible.

 

Two completely different animals. Its a bad spot because of the blood supply issue, but even if a 2nd surgery is needed, that from what I have read is usually the end of it.

 

Our series of 25 NFL players is the largest reported series of professional athletes with Jones fractures treated by a single

surgeon with the same technique and an accelerated rehabili-tation protocol. Our data demonstrate that 100% of players

were able to return to play and 80% were most recently still in the league.

Return to Play in National Football League Players After Operative Jones Fracture Treatment (PDF Download Available). Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281683456_Return_to_Play_in_National_Football_League_Players_After_Operative_Jones_Fracture_Treatment [accessed May 20, 2016].

 

I cannot comment as to the other articles you read as I may or may not have, and do not know their connection to this discussion.

[P51]

Has there been confirmation of a Jones Fracture? If not I would be very hesitant to diagnose him with that injury considering he played (very well too) the second half of the season on it.

 

Not a confirmation from what I have seen, mostly just that he broke his foot and had a screw inserted. Nor has it been reported how it happened. Only thing that seems to be true is he had a broken foot of some kind, and had a screw inserted a month ago.

[John from Riverside]

I like Greg Salas

[Kemp2Warlick]

http://blogs.buffalobills.com/2016/05/20/who-has-looked-good-in-absence-of-sammy/

[CommonCents]

 

My rates are pretty consistent across all the literature I have read about Jones Fractures as it pertains to professional athletes, no where did it state that a Jones Fracture ended a players career and the re-fracture rate was around 7% I thought, this research article has it at 4-12%:

 

Despite appropriate operative treatment along with advances in technique and implants, nonunion and refracture continue to occur in 4% to 12% of athletes.

Return to Play in National Football League Players After Operative Jones Fracture Treatment (PDF Download Available). Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281683456_Return_to_Play_in_National_Football_League_Players_After_Operative_Jones_Fracture_Treatment [accessed May 20, 2016].

 

My research based article is based on NFL players having a screw inserted to expedite the healing process. The one you mention is a general information article about for the general public the discusses the relative rates for the general public after other treatment options: " Jones fracture surgery is usually performed if the fracture is displaced, if it does not heal properly, or if the problem is chronic." The two articles are discussing the same thing, but with completely different circumstances. There is a huge difference between Sammy/Julio or any other NFL player and Joe Schmoe.

 

In this case series, we report the results of 25 consecutive NFL players who underwent percutaneous fixation of an acute proximal fifth metatarsal fracture with an indication-specific screw.

Return to Play in National Football League Players After Operative Jones Fracture Treatment (PDF Download Available). Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281683456_Return_to_Play_in_National_Football_League_Players_After_Operative_Jones_Fracture_Treatment [accessed May 20, 2016].

 

VS.

 

A Jones fracture is often mistaken for a sprain or an avulsion fracture. This is why its important to have your injury diagnosed as soon as possible.

 

Two completely different animals. Its a bad spot because of the blood supply issue, but even if a 2nd surgery is needed, that from what I have read is usually the end of it.

 

Our series of 25 NFL players is the largest reported series of professional athletes with Jones fractures treated by a single

surgeon with the same technique and an accelerated rehabili-tation protocol. Our data demonstrate that 100% of players

were able to return to play and 80% were most recently still in the league.

Return to Play in National Football League Players After Operative Jones Fracture Treatment (PDF Download Available). Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281683456_Return_to_Play_in_National_Football_League_Players_After_Operative_Jones_Fracture_Treatment [accessed May 20, 2016].

 

I cannot comment as to the other articles you read as I may or may not have, and do not know their connection to this discussion.

Good stuff, thanks for clarifying all that. I wasn't trying to be a pain in the ass, I browsed around most of the stuff I found was general results and not directly towards athletes. It is alarming that high profile athletes have had problems, hopefully Sammy avoids that.

[Prickly Pete]

Looks like this offense is set to become a juggernaut. I mean, with a guy like Woods as a number 2, I just can't think of how this offense can be improved. If everyone stays healthy, this should be a top 5 offense, amirite?

[John from Riverside]

Looks like this offense is set to become a juggernaut. I mean, with a guy like Woods as a number 2, I just can't think of how this offense can be improved. If everyone stays healthy, this should be a top 5 offense, amirite?

How about if they were a 10-12 ranked offense and the D took a big jump as well?

 

When you have a run dom offense....its never gonna be ranked in the top 5

[Augie]

I like Greg Salas

 

He really surprised me! From what I saw, I couldn't believe he was available.

[Prickly Pete]

How about if they were a 10-12 ranked offense and the D took a big jump as well?

 

When you have a run dom offense....its never gonna be ranked in the top 5

 

So the offense is all set, and reasonably well stocked with talent, amirite? Now it's time to turn the lowly defense into a generational unit like the Ravens, Bears, or Broncos, amirite? It shouldn't take long, which is good, cuz I can't wait.

[John from Riverside]

 

So the offense is all set, and reasonably well stocked with talent, amirite? Now it's time to turn the lowly defense into a generational unit like the Ravens, Bears, or Broncos, amirite? It shouldn't take long, which is good, cuz I can't wait.

It would not take a generational unit......

 

Top 8 would do.....and Rex HAS had defenses in that vicinity in the past that frankly have not had this much talent.

[Chilly]

How about if they were a 10-12 ranked offense and the D took a big jump as well?

 

When you have a run dom offense....its never gonna be ranked in the top 5

 

I don't agree with that at all.

 

In 2015

Seattle: #3 Rushing, #4 Yds/Gm, #4 Points Per Game

Carolina: #2 Rushing, #11 Yds/Gm, #1 Points Per Game

Buffalo: #1 Rushing, #13 Yds/Gm, #12 Points Per Game

 

Big difference between the Seattle/Carolina and us was the passing game scoring points.

 

DYAR Rankings:

 

Seattle

Doug Baldwin - #2

Tyler Lockett - #15

J. Kearse - #18

J. Graham - #8 TE

 

Awesome receiver group last year.

 

Carolina

Greg Olsen - #6 TE

J. Cotchery - #40

C. Brown - #50

T. Ginn - #52

 

An amazing player in Greg Olsen followed by 3 receivers ranking in the #2 receiver range (32-64). And Cam Newton is just ridiculous.

 

Buffalo

S. Watkins - #9

Charles Clay - #32 TE

C. Hogan - #75

R. Woods - #79

 

Just like Carolina and Seattle, we had ourselves a great threat in Sammy Watkins, but unlike Seattle and Carolina, the other people we had receiving the ball were two guys who were in 3WR range (Hogan & Woods), and essentially the last starting TE in the league.

 

Now, I think Clay has the potential and will certainly be better than last year, but we just don't have the receivers the other great offenses in the NFL do. We're trying to be a Seattle or Carolina style offense with a wide receiver group that just isn't as good.

 

Did we need to improve the defense? Absolutely. But it's an offensive driven league, we have the potential to be great, and we're missing that 32-64 range guy who can be that #2 WR threat that the other great offenses have.

Edited May 20, 2016 by Chilly

[yungmack]

I don't agree with that at all.

 

In 2015

Seattle: #3 Rushing, #4 Yds/Gm, #4 Points Per Game

Carolina: #2 Rushing, #11 Yds/Gm, #1 Points Per Game

Buffalo: #1 Rushing, #13 Yds/Gm, #12 Points Per Game

 

Big difference between the Seattle/Carolina and us was the passing game scoring points.

 

DYAR Rankings:

 

Seattle

Doug Baldwin - #2

Tyler Lockett - #15

J. Kearse - #18

J. Graham - #8 TE

 

Awesome receiver group last year.

 

Carolina

Greg Olsen - #6 TE

J. Cotchery - #40

C. Brown - #50

T. Ginn - #52

 

An amazing player in Greg Olsen followed by 3 receivers ranking in the #2 receiver range (32-64). And Cam Newton is just ridiculous.

 

Buffalo

S. Watkins - #9

Charles Clay - #32 TE

C. Hogan - #75

R. Woods - #79

 

Just like Carolina and Seattle, we had ourselves a great threat in Sammy Watkins, but unlike Seattle and Carolina, the other people we had receiving the ball were two guys who were in 3WR range (Hogan & Woods), and essentially the last starting TE in the league.

 

Now, I think Clay has the potential and will certainly be better than last year, but we just don't have the receivers the other great offenses in the NFL do. We're trying to be a Seattle or Carolina style offense with a wide receiver group that just isn't as good.

 

Did we need to improve the defense? Absolutely. But it's an offensive driven league, we have the potential to be great, and we're missing that 32-64 range guy who can be that #2 WR threat that the other great offenses have.

Please keep in mind that a receiver is totally dependent on the QB and the OC.

[Prickly Pete]

It would not take a generational unit......

 

Top 8 would do.....and Rex HAS had defenses in that vicinity in the past that frankly have not had this much talent.

 

Cool, Wrex will deliver!

 

I guess we can talk about this at the end of the season (or maybe even earlier). I really doubt the offense or defense will make any big leaps.

 

I expect they will both improve a bit, but I believe adding a better WR would be the position that would improve the offense and help Tyrod most (and allow them to be less dependent on the oft injured Watkins).

 

This Woods ball washing will look silly by season's end. He is Just a Guy, and they will regret not bringing in someone better. Maybe the next draft....

Edited May 20, 2016 by HoF Watkins

[Deranged Rhino]

 

Cool, Wrex will deliver!

 

I guess we can talk about this at the end of the season (or maybe even earlier). I really doubt the offense or defense will make any big leaps.

 

I expect they will both improve a bit, but I believe adding a better WR would be the position that would improve the offense and help Tyrod most (and allow them to be less dependent on the oft injured Watkins).

 

This Woods ball washing will look silly by season's end. He is Just a Guy, and they will regret not bringing in someone better. Maybe the next draft....

 

No one is washing his balls that I've seen in this thread.

[dayman]

IMO Woods is nothing special. Needed to get better there.

[John from Riverside]

 

I don't agree with that at all.

 

In 2015

Seattle: #3 Rushing, #4 Yds/Gm, #4 Points Per Game

Carolina: #2 Rushing, #11 Yds/Gm, #1 Points Per Game

Buffalo: #1 Rushing, #13 Yds/Gm, #12 Points Per Game

 

Big difference between the Seattle/Carolina and us was the passing game scoring points.

 

DYAR Rankings:

 

Seattle

Doug Baldwin - #2

Tyler Lockett - #15

J. Kearse - #18

J. Graham - #8 TE

 

Awesome receiver group last year.

 

Carolina

Greg Olsen - #6 TE

J. Cotchery - #40

C. Brown - #50

T. Ginn - #52

 

An amazing player in Greg Olsen followed by 3 receivers ranking in the #2 receiver range (32-64). And Cam Newton is just ridiculous.

 

Buffalo

S. Watkins - #9

Charles Clay - #32 TE

C. Hogan - #75

R. Woods - #79

 

Just like Carolina and Seattle, we had ourselves a great threat in Sammy Watkins, but unlike Seattle and Carolina, the other people we had receiving the ball were two guys who were in 3WR range (Hogan & Woods), and essentially the last starting TE in the league.

 

Now, I think Clay has the potential and will certainly be better than last year, but we just don't have the receivers the other great offenses in the NFL do. We're trying to be a Seattle or Carolina style offense with a wide receiver group that just isn't as good.

 

Did we need to improve the defense? Absolutely. But it's an offensive driven league, we have the potential to be great, and we're missing that 32-64 range guy who can be that #2 WR threat that the other great offenses have.

Woods played with a injury all year......lets see how it plays out