2016 Draft O-line thread

[3rdand12]

I'd love for them to find a RT, or any other OL in a later round, I really would...it just hasn't happened...and I have no reason to expect it will suddenly turn around.12 years (actually longer) is more than enough time to wait for this theory to come to fruition. If they had a little history of success I'd feel differently.

 

People would be horrified if we did this with the defensive backfield. I don't know how many people would say, "OK, we drafted Ross Cockrell in the 4th, or Justin Rogers in the 7th...so we're set for a few years, we have to see what they can do."

 

I look at it as a positive thing...with one addition..this line can be improved significantly. Unlike prior years, when 3 or more positions had to be filled. 1 draft choice can go a long way to shoring up pass protection, maybe getting away from being towards the bottom of the league. They still pass as much as they run the ball.

Not sure if he's been in a 3 point stance since his pop warner days.

 

Red Raiders are like that.

I am not going to go off the deep end if they add a starter at O line.

But with 3 decent to very good guys and one or two serviceable players, Bill would still be fielding a better O line than they have in yearses

[simpleman]

I realize this board is filled with a lot who view the team through sunny “home team” vision. But the reality is summed up perfectly in this Summary.

 

From PFF

 

“Summary: Quite the turnaround for this group. Spearheaded by the arrival of Incognito, it’s really a tale of two sides. On the left, their pairing is as good as any in the league, and on the right, it’s as bad as any. In the middle, the ever-present Eric Wood had a very useful year for a line that has a nice blend of youth and experience.”

 

There is no solution for RT already on this team roster. Kujo is a marginal backup at best.

Henderson has had plenty of chances, he might be a solid swing BACKUP if his health problems can ever be solved. Mills has shown nothing to deserve the starting position. We need to solve the RT position in the draft.

 

The additions in FA were strictly backup quality. Being optimistic I will call the Urbick replacement a possible wash.

 

Miller is a question mark, we are only giving him a pass for last year because he was a rookie, he was not good, this is his prove it year. If he was a vet he would already be history. A later round pick to develop a player for a plan B if Miller fails the test this year is needed.

 

This is a rebuild year for the Bills. It is time to draft & plan for a serious challenge next year. An OT in the first 2 rounds and OG 3-5 rounds. I hope we can luck into a first round playoff game this year, but anything more in the first year of a major rebuild of the defense is totally unrealistic. There are just too many major holes there to expect rookies to be able to come in and fill them all sufficiently their first year. Using all your top picks in the draft would still not fix the defense this year The defense will now take at least 2 drafts to fix, unless an expensive FA solution can be found next year to fit the cap. Fixing the team will take at least two drafts, so work at building both sides of the ball this year in the draft.

[3rdand12]

I realize this board is filled with a lot who view the team through sunny “home team” vision. But the reality is summed up perfectly in this Summary.

 

From PFF

 

“Summary: Quite the turnaround for this group. Spearheaded by the arrival of Incognito, it’s really a tale of two sides. On the left, their pairing is as good as any in the league, and on the right, it’s as bad as any. In the middle, the ever-present Eric Wood had a very useful year for a line that has a nice blend of youth and experience.”

 

There is no solution for RT already on this team roster. Kujo is a marginal backup at best.

Henderson has had plenty of chances, he might be a solid swing BACKUP if his health problems can ever be solved. Mills has shown nothing to deserve the starting position. We need to solve the RT position in the draft.

 

The additions in FA were strictly backup quality. Being optimistic I will call the Urbick replacement a possible wash.

 

Miller is a question mark, we are only giving him a pass for last year because he was a rookie, he was not good, this is his prove it year. If he was a vet he would already be history. A later round pick to develop a player for a plan B if Miller fails the test this year is needed.

 

This is a rebuild year for the Bills. It is time to draft & plan for a serious challenge next year. An OT in the first 2 rounds and OG 3-5 rounds. I hope we can luck into a first round playoff game this year, but anything more in the first year of a major rebuild of the defense is totally unrealistic. There are just too many major holes there to expect rookies to be able to come in and fill them all sufficiently their first year. Using all your top picks in the draft would still not fix the defense this year The defense will now take at least 2 drafts to fix, unless an expensive FA solution can be found next year to fit the cap. Fixing the team will take at least two drafts, so work at building both sides of the ball this year in the draft.

I could see another guard coming on in rounds 3-5. Not sure about tackle this year in the first two rounds of the draft. Just me though.

Some folks would like to finish building the O line. I think they might get by reasonably well, second year under Kromer and Roman. with 2 very good to excellent players on the left of Center one center who looked to be in good form last year .

And then the requisite work arounds that coaches and teams do to cover weaknesses

Maybe better for me if they grab a tackle 3-5 who needs a some time to develop. Then easier and cheaper to grab a guard via FA next year.

 

I think there is valid reasoning to take one of each this draft.

 

But i stand firm that Bills need to hit on two starters on the D front seven and i wish for another that can rotate in at NT. I think that is more bang for the buck and a glaring weakness.

Hell maybe Bills can all those things !!

[simpleman]

I could see another guard coming on in rounds 3-5. Not sure about tackle this year in the first two rounds of the draft. Just me though.

Some folks would like to finish building the O line. I think they might get by reasonably well, second year under Kromer and Roman. with 2 very good to excellent players on the left of Center one center who looked to be in good form last year .

 

If I was a D Coordinator on a team playing the Bills I would be routing a majority of my D plays on the right side of the Offense. I would be taking away half the field for Bills to run to and would try to force a TE or RB to concentrate on protecting TT from getting killed from my rushers coming from the right side instead of concentrating on advancing the ball. It is hard to cover a weakness when it is your whole right side.

I can't remember if TT is a right hand or left handed passer, but the field could get very long for him to throw to wrong side depending on which is his weak side if he constantly has to roll to one side to stay alive long enough to pass. Miller is questionable, we all hope the light will come on his 2nd year, but who knows if it will. The right tackle situation is simply a train wreck.

I agree that we need serious D help from the draft, but I believe the D is so broken that it will be impossible to fix it in only one draft. Not so with the O-line. It is definitely fixable if we hit on an early round tackle and a 3-5 round G. And we won't have to hit on the G if Miller takes the 2nd year leap. It is a matter of fixing what you can this year and realizing you can't fix the D this year.

Edited April 12, 2016 by simpleman

[26CornerBlitz]

 

If I was a D Coordinator on a team playing the Bills I would be routing a majority of my D plays on the right side of the Offense. I would be taking away half the field for Bills to run to and would require a TE or RB to concentrate on protecting TT from getting killed from my rushers coming from the right side. It is hard to cover a weakness when it is your whole right side. I cant remember if TT is a right hand or left handed passer but the field could get very long for him to throw to wrong side depending on which is his weak side. Miller is questionable, we all hope the light will come on his 2nd year, but who knows if it will. The right tackle situation is simply a train wreck.

I agree that we need serious D help from the draft, but I believe the D is so broken that it will be impossible to fix it in only one draft. Not so with the O-line. It is definitely fixable if we hit on an early round tackle and a 3-5 round G. It is a matter of fixing what you can this year and realizing you can't fix the D this year.

 

 

In Roman's offense, the Bills often pull Glenn, Incognito, and Wood so that would not necessarily work.

[GunnerBill]

Indeed the Texans tried that last year. JJ Watt who so often moves about played almost the whole game as a LDE and they brought blitzes from that side too. It didn't work.

[simpleman]

For those that say we don’t need to draft a guard. I can’t believe posters here and in the local media call Miller a draft win for the Bills. There is no excuse for starting a rookie at a position who is rated negatively every game he started, and is the worst starter in the whole league. If he isn’t ready to be a starter, he shouldn’t be penciled in as one. We need to find a player who can step in and be a starter. Let Miller win the position based on merit, not thrown into it in desperation based on a hope he may someday grow into it. The record shows he has done little to justify that hope.

 

PFF rates the worst players at each position.

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2015/11/11/pro-pffs-midseason-all-worst-team/

 

“Guards: John Miller, Bills, 34.5

 

Miller has had a really rough time pass blocking all season, and his 29.2 grade in that discipline reflects that (lowest in the NFL among guards). He’s graded negatively in every game he’s played, and his pass blocking efficiency of 91.9 is the fourth-worst in the NFL. Factor in his 40.8 run block grade (15th lowest in the league…”

[GunnerBill]

That PFF run block grade is simply wrong. I have been back and watched every snap. I can take the pass block grade - I even pretty much agree. But I don't know what they are watching in the run blocking. Through the first 8 games I had him marked as high as Wood and just below Richie. He did suffer down the strerch with the injury but I am sorry that grade is wrong.

[simpleman]

 

In Roman's offense, the Bills often pull Glenn, Incognito, and Wood so that would not necessarily work.

I agree that they do that, but once they do that, they are forced to abandon their game plan. In that case they are reacting to my defense, letting me dictate the game to them. Instead of the defense reacting to the game-plan of the offense, the defense is now forcing the offense to react to it. The opposite of what the offense is ideally suppose to do. I would be glad to have my defense dictate the game-plan to the offense rather than react to their game-plan any day. The old saying about the best defense is a good offense. Ask Carolina what happens when a defense forces the offense to react to their defense rather than stick to their game-plan. Look at why the Bills won most of the games they did two years ago, the defense disrupted the opponents game-plan enough that they dictated the flow of the game when their opponents were on offense. Throw the offense off their game plan and they can't follow the plan they spent all week practicing and they are just winging it.

Edited April 12, 2016 by simpleman

[Blokestradamus]

That PFF run block grade is simply wrong. I have been back and watched every snap. I can take the pass block grade - I even pretty much agree. But I don't know what they are watching in the run blocking. Through the first 8 games I had him marked as high as Wood and just below Richie. He did suffer down the strerch with the injury but I am sorry that grade is wrong.

 

One of the faults I have with PFF is that it seems like they decide early if someone is bad and fail to grade with complete objectivity. Consensus 'good' players get the benefit of the doubt for certain snaps that consensus 'bad' players don't.

 

I have little faith in their OL or DB rankings. That's just because they don't know assignments for OL. Miller wasn't good last year (I'll admit as much despite liking him) but he was far from being one of the worst guards in the NFL.

[GunnerBill]

 

One of the faults I have with PFF is that it seems like they decide early if someone is bad and fail to grade with complete objectivity. Consensus 'good' players get the benefit of the doubt for certain snaps that consensus 'bad' players don't.

 

I have little faith in their OL or DB rankings. That's just because they don't know assignments for OL. Miller wasn't good last year (I'll admit as much despite liking him) but he was far from being one of the worst guards in the NFL.

100% agree and I don't claim Miller was good either. His pass blocking was what they say it was. They have just not marked his run blocking objectively and if the want to send the owner of PFF, who like me is a Brit, down to London I will sit through every snap Miller played again with him and point out where his website is wrong.

[Blokestradamus]

100% agree and I don't claim Miller was good either. His pass blocking was what they say it was. They have just not marked his run blocking objectively and if the want to send the owner of PFF, who like me is a Brit, down to London I will sit through every snap Miller played again with him and point out where his website is wrong.

 

John struggled with his pass blocking at Louisville too. I wrote about it when I watched him. I actually pegged him to Buffalo because it was one of the few teams that could minimise it while he was coached up.

 

I am all for competition being brought in. No player should be handed a job without merit. I'm just not giving up on him after a year that was interrupted by injury and a position change (LG to RG isn't as easy as some would have you believe). I expect an improvement or I'll start calling for his head myself.

[3rdand12]

 

John struggled with his pass blocking at Louisville too. I wrote about it when I watched him. I actually pegged him to Buffalo because it was one of the few teams that could minimise it while he was coached up.

 

I am all for competition being brought in. No player should be handed a job without merit. I'm just not giving up on him after a year that was interrupted by injury and a position change (LG to RG isn't as easy as some would have you believe). I expect an improvement or I'll start calling for his head myself.

I would have give Miller another shot here and expect improvement in his second year. I realize he will be limited but he could be successful

[26CornerBlitz]

@PFF

Need help on the offensive line? @PFF_Kev identifies three O-line sleeper prospects heading into the 2016 draft: https://t.co/atE5AXTB47

1. Joe Thuney, North Carolina State 2. Isaac Seumalo, Oregon State 3. Kyle Murphy, Stanford

 

[thebandit27]

@PFF

Need help on the offensive line? @PFF_Kev identifies three O-line sleeper prospects heading into the 2016 draft: https://t.co/atE5AXTB47

 

1. Joe Thuney, North Carolina State 2. Isaac Seumalo, Oregon State 3. Kyle Murphy, Stanford

 

 

 

Hmmm...I feel like someone on this board has been promoting Murphy for a few months now...

[thebandit27]

 

Hmmm...I feel like someone on this board has been promoting Murphy for a few months now...

Here's Kyle Murphy (LT78) against Oregon State:

 

 

Notice a few things:

 

- He seems to always be the low-man on running plays

- Very athletic in space

- Does a nice job disengaging from his initial assignment to work to 2nd level

- Has frame to add weight; which he'll need to do to avoid getting over-run by power rushers

 

Really, really like him as a 3rd/4th round OT option.

Oh, and his effort on that run play at 2:15 is exceptional

[OldTimer1960]

I could see another guard coming on in rounds 3-5. Not sure about tackle this year in the first two rounds of the draft. Just me though.

Some folks would like to finish building the O line. I think they might get by reasonably well, second year under Kromer and Roman. with 2 very good to excellent players on the left of Center one center who looked to be in good form last year .

And then the requisite work arounds that coaches and teams do to cover weaknesses

Maybe better for me if they grab a tackle 3-5 who needs a some time to develop. Then easier and cheaper to grab a guard via FA next year.

 

I think there is valid reasoning to take one of each this draft.

 

But i stand firm that Bills need to hit on two starters on the D front seven and i wish for another that can rotate in at NT. I think that is more bang for the buck and a glaring weakness.

Hell maybe Bills can all those things !!

I don't disagree that OL re-inforcements would be helpful, but I take issue with "a tackle 3-5 who needs a some time to develop."

I agree that there are a small number of players that can be had in middle-to-late rounds that will become good with some "development' - whether that be coaching, experience or strength development. But the reality is that most mid to late round players are fundamentally lacking the talent to become good starters and most will never "develop" enough to be starters.

 

 

[YattaOkasan]

Here's Kyle Murphy (LT78) against Oregon State:

 

 

Notice a few things:

 

- He seems to always be the low-man on running plays

- Very athletic in space

- Does a nice job disengaging from his initial assignment to work to 2nd level

- Has frame to add weight; which he'll need to do to avoid getting over-run by power rushers

 

Really, really like him as a 3rd/4th round OT option.

Oh, and his effort on that run play at 2:15 is exceptional

Did he get injured in that game? At some point (hard to tell where) 64 seemed to replace him at LT.

[3rdand12]

I don't disagree that OL re-inforcements would be helpful, but I take issue with "a tackle 3-5 who needs a some time to develop."

I agree that there are a small number of players that can be had in middle-to-late rounds that will become good with some "development' - whether that be coaching, experience or strength development. But the reality is that most mid to late round players are fundamentally lacking the talent to become good starters and most will never "develop" enough to be starters.

 

 

Then grab a guard.

I feel there are plenty of players who are not NFL ready that are just more raw than a lack of ability.

 

As you mentioned the trick is finding them

[thebandit27]

Did he get injured in that game? At some point (hard to tell where) 64 seemed to replace him at LT.

Yeah...mid 3rd quarter I believe