The Big Cat Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 I'm shocked this thread doesn't already exist. Those who have not watched the series will be subjected to spoilers in this thread. Enter at your own peril. I'll go first: the ten episodes were entirely too one-sided to draw the kind of meaningful conclusions that it seems much of the audience has glommed to. This is both a testament to the craft with which the series was made given how beautiful, thorough and immersive it was. But also given that depth and gravity, and the skill with which the narrative is developed, the absence of a counterpoint weakens not only the compellingness of the series itself but also, more importantly, the case for Steven Avery's innocence. In other words, it's curious that the makers left no stone un-turned to imply his innocence, yet made no effort to flesh out the possibility of his guilt nor the reasons why so many in the community were convinced of it. Can anyone say with a clear head that Steven Avery is most certainly not the killer? http://onmilwaukee.com/movies/articles/makingamurdereralternativesuspects.html http://onmilwaukee.com/movies/articles/evidenceagainstavery.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 (edited) I think the more important take away is the blatant misconduct by the police and prosecution at every turn. Even if Steven Avery is guilty as can be it doesn't excuse their behavior. What's scary is that we can't really say with any confidence that he wasn't framed. Half those cops and the prosecutor should have been fired at a minimum. Instead they received awards. Edited January 3, 2016 by Rob's House Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Best Player Available Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Did a marathon on this. it does seem slanted in Avery's favor for the sake of ratings. IMO for the police/county to pull this off successfully Means multiple people and or agencies were involved. And somewhere down the line someone will talk. That Said Avery conviction sure seems to have some bizarre coincidences. The bullet found in the garage and absence of any blood. Well after multiple searches took place. What dumb arse would burn a body behind their house? Well I guess some would. The key. IMO,it was planted Conclusion: Avery did it, and the police made sure there was enough evidence planted or not to convict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acantha Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 I think the more important take away is the blatant misconduct by the police and prosecution at every turn. Even if Steven Avery is guilty as can be it doesn't excuse their behavior. What's scary is that we can't really say with any confidence that he wasn't framed. Half those cops and the prosecutor should have been fired at a minimum. Instead they received awards. I agree with this fully. Given the way the info is presented, it's impossible to say that he's innocent, but what a horrible mess everyone made of that investigation. Horrible decision after horrible decision...and what a bunch of slimy bastards in that system. On the other hand, I'm pretty curious to see the other side of the Brendan issue, because based on those video interviews, that kid got royally screwed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted January 4, 2016 Author Share Posted January 4, 2016 I agree with this fully. Given the way the info is presented, it's impossible to say that he's innocent, but what a horrible mess everyone made of that investigation. Horrible decision after horrible decision...and what a bunch of slimy bastards in that system. On the other hand, I'm pretty curious to see the other side of the Brendan issue, because based on those video interviews, that kid got royally screwed. http://www.pajiba.com/netflix_movies_and_tv/is-steven-avery-guilty-evidence-making-a-murderer-didnt-present.php More than meets the eye with Brendan too. Still a victim through and through. But these rootin tootin scrap yard folk weren't as sympathetic as the doc portrayed them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 http://www.pajiba.com/netflix_movies_and_tv/is-steven-avery-guilty-evidence-making-a-murderer-didnt-present.php More than meets the eye with Brendan too. Still a victim through and through. But these rootin tootin scrap yard folk weren't as sympathetic as the doc portrayed them. That's a great article and the account by Brendan is not too far removed from my theory of events befire reading it. I'll lose no sleep for Steven Avery. I thought the whole time that anyone who gets his kicks by burning an animal alive (especially as a grown man) is a POS. Regardless, the idea of cops with such an obvious conflict of interest taking lead roles in the investigation and mysteriously finding key pieces of evidence is nearly as disturbing as the crime itself. The ends don't justify the means, IMO. The greater end is the use of proper means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 I think it is quite obvious that some of the evidence was fabricated and there was procedural misconduct abound... which should have invalidated the entire case against Avery. If one thing was 'planted' or tampered with by authorities, it all is garbage. Who knows what is real and what is fabricated. No other leads seem to have been taken into account. Maybe Avery did it... who knows? The "authorities" blew the chance at finding the truth which is criminal. A lot of this "other evidence" that is coming out doesn't necessarily implicate Avery for a murder (and some of that in that article WAS covered in the series). Dassey's confession may have been more detailed and less urged-on... but it had countless holes in it, numerous versions changed (including versions where nothing happened)... I cant figure out why/how they performed a grisly murder, cut hair, but not a shred of DNA anywhere.... maybe they cleaned it really good, but why leave the care covered up by a 5x5 board with Avery's blood in it on the property like 200 yards from a car crusher? Why leave a key in the middle of the floor? This documentary was one-sided... but so was the lead-up to the case. The prosecution and media made sure that Avery was considered guilty before the trial began. In the doc, the lawyers were going over the survey of 100 people where like 99 people thought he was definitely guilty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryPinC Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 http://www.pajiba.com/netflix_movies_and_tv/is-steven-avery-guilty-evidence-making-a-murderer-didnt-present.php More than meets the eye with Brendan too. Still a victim through and through. But these rootin tootin scrap yard folk weren't as sympathetic as the doc portrayed them. Good article. Here's another decently balanced one from msn: http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/prosecutor-says-%E2%80%98making-a-murderer%E2%80%99-omitted-crucial-facts/ar-AAgnXkT?li=BBnbcA1 I didn't watch the series, I hate, hate, hate this type of "investigation", but it just shows the power of media bias. Every producer in this situation does it because they're convinced of an injustice and that's how it ends up looking because certain facts were conveniently omitted or de-emphasized. Really just a travesty of justice and it's a shame producers can't be held liable for misrepresenting the story. I hate frivolous law suits but just once I'd like to see the victim's family sue the producers/studios for emotional distress or something relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Cubed Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 http://www.pajiba.com/netflix_movies_and_tv/is-steven-avery-guilty-evidence-making-a-murderer-didnt-present.php More than meets the eye with Brendan too. Still a victim through and through. But these rootin tootin scrap yard folk weren't as sympathetic as the doc portrayed them. Besides the Brenden interview stuff, that article is pretty crap actually. Most of it takes what Ken Kratz said to People magazine as fact, which in fact we're very exaggerated truths. There's a Reddit thread breaking down a lot of this, with links to the actual transcript. Teresa Halbach did not have a problem with Steven Avery. Both her boss and coworkers were interviewed as part of the trial and the most she said about Steven was "eww" because he answered the door in a towel. She was never asked to be removed from Stevens account. She called him to set up the appointment. She knew she was going there, there was no sign that she was scared of him. He called her back, based on times witnesses gave, presumably because she was running late. The sex toys and restraints are irrelevant because no DNA was found on them. There were also no marks on the bed that the restraints were used on. As others have said, I'm not convinced Avery is 100% innocent but man did they screw the pooch. They also didn't look at other suspects, at all. Scott is an interesting suspect and was caught in a bunch of lies by the defense. He also has a history of stalking and violence. Also his co-worker reported that he attempted to sell a .22 caliber rifle, the same type that is believed to be used, after Steven was arrested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heitz Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 Like everyone, I can't say for sure what the truth is, but damn, it makes one wonder what length the police will go to just to get Avery. I'm amazed that the TBD thread is this balanced! I'm on episode 5, so a few more to go for me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wooderson Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 Agree with most. We really don't know what happened for sure, but I do think that Avery is guilty. Not sure about Brendan, but leaning toward him not having little/anything to do with what happened. I am appalled with: -The way the search was handled by kicking him out of his house for over 3 days. -The Manitowoc Sheriff's Department continuing to be involved in the investigation even after they had a press conference saying that they would not be involved. -Kratz's long winded explanation with how Teresa Halbach was mutilated and tortured during the press conference when half of it was proven to be untrue or unknown. -Avery's vile of blood tampered with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acantha Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 Agree with most. We really don't know what happened for sure, but I do think that Avery is guilty. Not sure about Brendan, but leaning toward him not having little/anything to do with what happened. I am appalled with: -The way the search was handled by kicking him out of his house for over 3 days. -The Manitowoc Sheriff's Department continuing to be involved in the investigation even after they had a press conference saying that they would not be involved. -Kratz's long winded explanation with how Teresa Halbach was mutilated and tortured during the press conference when half of it was proven to be untrue or unknown. -Avery's vile of blood tampered with. Outside of Brenden's video (and even after reading a lot more about it I still think it was unbelievable what they did to that kid), this was my biggest WTF. Either the documentary did a horrible job following through on it, or everyone else did. Seriously, WTF happened with that vial?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 Outside of Brenden's video (and even after reading a lot more about it I still think it was unbelievable what they did to that kid), this was my biggest WTF. Either the documentary did a horrible job following through on it, or everyone else did. Seriously, WTF happened with that vial?? I've been wondering the same thing. What's the explanation for that open vial of blood? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 I've been wondering the same thing. What's the explanation for that open vial of blood? Just guessing, but a secret human cloning program unrelated to his case? That's where my money's at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 (edited) Mentioned in the thread about what show to start, but wanted to do separate thread so anyone who hadn't seen it yet wouldn't see spoilers. Anyone watch this? I have so many questions. And do you think one or both are guilty? I originally thought neither but have been reading different opinions and don't know anymore. Seems most don't think Brendan did it. But how could the state not give him a new trial?! Edit: Why couldn't I find this thread? How odd - I did a search. Thanks for the merge!! Edited January 27, 2016 by YoloinOhio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 We are due to watch episode 10 tonight. I can't wait, because I want to research both sides of this story. As of right now, the only thing I can take away as fact is that young girl is dead. Other than that, I have opinions, but they are only based on one side of the story, so they mean nothing - even to me, and they're my opinions. Things that concern me: The vial The lack of blood/DNA The discovery of the vehicle The interrogation methods used on Dassey My guess: Avery did it and he did it well enough to get away with it if he wasn't framed. But he was framed. I'm torn on whether Dassey had any role. One more fact: the prosecutor and Halbach's brother are both colossal douche bags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 (edited) http://www.pajiba.com/netflix_movies_and_tv/is-steven-avery-guilty-evidence-making-a-murderer-didnt-present.php More than meets the eye with Brendan too. Still a victim through and through. But these rootin tootin scrap yard folk weren't as sympathetic as the doc portrayed them. now that I read that, it's way more convoluted than I thought. We are due to watch episode 10 tonight. I can't wait, because I want to research both sides of this story. As of right now, the only thing I can take away as fact is that young girl is dead. Other than that, I have opinions, but they are only based on one side of the story, so they mean nothing - even to me, and they're my opinions. Things that concern me: The vial The lack of blood/DNA The discovery of the vehicle The interrogation methods used on Dassey My guess: Avery did it and he did it well enough to get away with it if he wasn't framed. But he was framed. I'm torn on whether Dassey had any role. One more fact: the prosecutor and Halbach's brother are both colossal douche bags. your last sentence - yes!! And Brendan's first lawyer too! Edited January 27, 2016 by YoloinOhio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 One more fact: Dassey's mom is even a "no," for Poojer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 Mentioned in the thread about what show to start, but wanted to do separate thread so anyone who hadn't seen it yet wouldn't see spoilers. Anyone watch this? I have so many questions. And do you think one or both are guilty? I originally thought neither but have been reading different opinions and don't know anymore. Seems most don't think Brendan did it. But how could the state not give him a new trial?! Edit: Why couldn't I find this thread? How odd - I did a search. Thanks for the merge!! I binged on it, then read a bunch of the material that's come out since. While watching the doc I got the sense that it was biased from the start, and the past few weeks have left little doubt that the filmmakers set about not to document Avery's innocence or guilt, but rather the flaws in the justice system. They certainly made a compelling documentary, and some of what the uncovered about the police in that county was down right terrifying from a civil liberties perspective. But in terms of whether he did it or not I couldn't tell you. I don't think he's a very stable person, and certainly not the sweetheart the filmmakers tried to portray him as. His nephew got the rawest of deals and may very well be innocent, but someone living on that compound killed that woman, if it wasn't Steven it was his brother or one of the other Averys who avoided the camera for 10+ years of filming. I'm fairly convinced of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 I've been wondering the same thing. What's the explanation for that open vial of blood?i read (opinion by abc legal correspondent Dan Abrams) that it is more common than the doc presents I binged on it, then read a bunch of the material that's come out since. While watching the doc I got the sense that it was biased from the start, and the past few weeks have left little doubt that the filmmakers set about not to document Avery's innocence or guilt, but rather the flaws in the justice system. They certainly made a compelling documentary, and some of what the uncovered about the police in that county was down right terrifying from a civil liberties perspective. But in terms of whether he did it or not I couldn't tell you. I don't think he's a very stable person, and certainly not the sweetheart the filmmakers tried to portray him as. His nephew got the rawest of deals and may very well be innocent, but someone living on that compound killed that woman, if it wasn't Steven it was his brother or one of the other Averys who avoided the camera for 10+ years of filming. I'm fairly convinced of that. i read an opinion about halfway through that said they thought it was Bobby Dassey and that guy Tadyk who went hunting that day -- two separate frame jobs with the police. It was plausible and made we watch it with that in mind. But the more I read the less I know.http://www.sunnyskyz.com/blog/1244/This-Is-The-Most-Credible-Making-A-Murderer-Theory-I-ve-Seen-So-Far Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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