Would you re-sign Harvin to $3m incentive laden contract?

[John from Riverside]

 

 

Let me repeat this for you.........the Bills traded the fifth round pick that they needed to outbid the Jets for Brandon Marshall to the Vikings for Matt Cassell.

 

The Bills had the first selection in the 5th round.

 

They were in on Marshall.

 

They settled for Harvin.

It happened

 

Time to move on?

[PlayoffsPlease]

It happened

 

Time to move on?

I agree it really is time to move on to new management.

[John from Riverside]

I agree it really is time to move on to new management.

Well

 

Since that is not happening anytime soon maybe its time to move on to fandom of a new team?

 

Every team makes these kinds of mistakes....the bills are not unique in this.

 

Some teams have impact players where they are good enough to overcome it....some just get lucky

[BADOLBILZ]

It happened

 

Time to move on?

 

 

John..........read what I was responding to.

 

MD was not aware that the Bills had traded the first pick of the fifth round for Matt Cassel.

 

The sequence of events is important.......panic trade for Cassel THEN the receiver they need becomes available.......probably their primary reasonably attained need.........but they've already squandered the pick ideally positioned to land him in trade AND already got themselves into a jam having to re-negotiate Shady McCoy's deal to boot.

 

The Bills made 4 salary significant moves bringing in players from other organizations...........McCoy, Cassel, Harvin and Clay..............none of which were the two primary stated positions of need at the outset.

 

The point is that they veered off course and AS A RESULT ended up throwing a lot of good money at little or poor production and now STILL need to fill those same two positions.

 

I am a believer that a successful organization should have direction and be seeking an identity on both sides of the ball........the identity was supposed to be tough and physical.........and soft players like McCoy and Harvin are out of character for what the offense calls for at the high dollar rates.

 

It was an ADHD kind of approach to the offseason rather than sound, systematic filling of needs in free agency and picking BPA in the draft (reaching for need in the second and/or third round has really taken a toll on the roster depth since Buddy/Whaley were hired).

 

And btw, when a response includes the post of someone else in the body.......it isn't directed at you.

Edited March 25, 2016 by #BADOL

[GunnerBill]

I have to confess I wasn't banging the drum for Marshall last offseason but I was adament that Harvin was a waste of time, money and effort.

[Doc]

 

 

You are way off on this.

 

First of all........when Rex was hired the first two thing he mentioned that they needed were a big WR and a NT.

 

But then they got a little carried away when they were offered Shady..........a finesse RB who does not fit Roman's scheme.

 

They panicked when they couldn't get McCown and traded a pick for a broken down, never was in Matt Cassel and when the Bears then put Marshall up on the block the Bills no longer had that pick to trade.

 

They deemed a fourth rounder too rich and the Jets got a player who is an outstanding big play threat and redzone beast........he isn't just "still good"....he had 109 catches 1502 yards and 14 TD's!

 

The PERFECT fit for what they needed opposite Watkins.

 

And they knew that was what they needed from the start.

 

Yet here we are a year later and they still need a WR and a NT.

 

They SETTLED for Harvin.........who became the odd man out after the Jets acquired Marshall.

 

Not sure where the tall WR or even the NT thing came from (link?), but the Bills needed a stud RB first and foremost, because they were planning on following the Jets' 2009-2010 model of great defense and strong running game, in absence of a top QB. Hence they traded for McCoy by giving up a guy who didn't fit their plans/wasn't very good anymore (IOW they essentially gave up nothing). They already had a stud WR in Sammy and weren't going to spend $9M/year on a 31 year old WR with mental health issues coming off an injury-riddled/down year, whatever the draft pick compensation, and that's assuming Marshall was willing to come to Buffalo in the first place. And before you think it was just Buffalo that made a mistake, every other team in the league didn't feel he was even worth a 4th rounder. In hindsight, sure, I think more teams might have made the trade. But that's the thing about hindsight.

[JohnC]

 

Not sure where the tall WR or even the NT thing came from (link?), but the Bills needed a stud RB first and foremost, because they were planning on following the Jets' 2009-2010 model of great defense and strong running game, in absence of a top QB. Hence they traded for McCoy by giving up a guy who didn't fit their plans/wasn't very good anymore (IOW they essentially gave up nothing). They already had a stud WR in Sammy and weren't going to spend $9M/year on a 31 year old WR with mental health issues coming off an injury-riddled/down year, whatever the draft pick compensation, and that's assuming Marshall was willing to come to Buffalo in the first place. And before you think it was just Buffalo that made a mistake, every other team in the league didn't feel he was even worth a 4th rounder. In hindsight, sure, I think more teams might have made the trade. But that's the thing about hindsight.

What was the need to upgrade McCoy's contract when he already was working under a lucrative deal? I never understood Whaley's contract stance with McCoy? It was apparent that McCoy wasn't happy with the trade and relocation. So what! What were the back's options? Sit out and hang out at bars? This was a case of the organization negotiating with itself.

[Doc]

What was the need to upgrade McCoy's contract when he already was working under a lucrative deal? I never understood Whaley's contract stance with McCoy? It was apparent that McCoy wasn't happy with the trade and relocation. So what! What were the back's options? Sit out and hang out at bars? This was a case of the organization negotiating with itself.

 

That has nothing to do with the current discussion. But yes he could have refused to report.

[JohnC]

 

That has nothing to do with the current discussion. But yes he could have refused to report.

It does relate to the discussion. When a GM makes a decision on a player and on a contract it impacts what his future options are on other players. If McCoy refused to report then what was his next option? Send out more moronic tweets about the coach that traded him?

Edited March 25, 2016 by JohnC

[Doc]

It does relate to the discussion. When a GM makes a decision on a player and on a contract it impacts what his future options are on other players. If McCoy refused to report then what is his next option?

 

In Shady's case, it didn't make a difference. From what I recall, his salary for 2016 under his Eagles contract was about the same as his cap hit for this year is with the Bills. And next year the Bills have $43M in cap room.

And if he refuses to report, the Bills potentially cancel the trade.

[KRT88]

Find another receiver ASAP, not Harvin. Woods should only be considered a #3 and Hogan should consider a career in Lacrosse.

Nope, It would have to be the league minimum plus big incentives. I'm not wasting 3M on a guy who is hurt all the time and doesn't know if he wants to play.

 

Well Hogan doesn't have to since NE is paying him $5M this year,

[BADOLBILZ]

 

In Shady's case, it didn't make a difference. From what I recall, his salary for 2016 under his Eagles contract was about the same as his cap hit for this year is with the Bills. And next year the Bills have $43M in cap room.

And if he refuses to report, the Bills potentially cancel the trade.

 

 

 

Yeah.......uh, Roger........remember that trade we made back in March for LeSean McCoy?..........well, he is now demanding we re-work his contract..........we'd like to cancel the trade.

 

In other news, the Colts would like Jerry Hughes returned.

Edited March 25, 2016 by #BADOL

[BADOLBILZ]

 

Not sure where the tall WR or even the NT thing came from (link?), but the Bills needed a stud RB first and foremost, because they were planning on following the Jets' 2009-2010 model of great defense and strong running game, in absence of a top QB. Hence they traded for McCoy by giving up a guy who didn't fit their plans/wasn't very good anymore (IOW they essentially gave up nothing). They already had a stud WR in Sammy and weren't going to spend $9M/year on a 31 year old WR with mental health issues coming off an injury-riddled/down year, whatever the draft pick compensation, and that's assuming Marshall was willing to come to Buffalo in the first place. And before you think it was just Buffalo that made a mistake, every other team in the league didn't feel he was even worth a 4th rounder. In hindsight, sure, I think more teams might have made the trade. But that's the thing about hindsight.

 

 

1) A singular lack of recollection on your part does not constitute a need for a link on the forum.

 

2) Unlike the WR position(see Hankerson, Little, Boykin) at the RB position you can throw 3 castoff at the wall and one of them is very likely to stick(Cierre Wood, Boom Herron, Mike Gillislee). And good RB's are easily found in every round of the draft and into UDFA. Running backs are not scarce and organizations that treat them like they are usually find themselves on the outside of the playoffs looking in.

 

As for shady being a stud RB.......a closer look should have revealed that he was not that. He had a good year when Chip first arrived........so did Nick Foles. But in 3 of the last 4 years he's hovered around league average per carry, doesn't produce big plays and doesn't put the ball in the end zone. His entire game focuses around getting to the sideline safely. That is not the physical back that they needed for the Greg Roman system.

[Mr. WEO]

At a page number of 22, this discussion duration is longer by 3 than the number of games this guy has played in the past 3 seasons.

 

All this for a career YPC of 11.5...

[NoSaint]

At a page number of 22, this discussion duration is longer by 3 than the number of games this guy has played in the past 3 seasons.

 

All this for a career YPC of 11.5...

whats tough in looking at his YPC is that id venture he catches way more passes behind the LOS than an average WR. with his bubble screens, lining up in the backfield, etc.... I dont have data on that but its a gut reaction

[Mr. WEO]

whats tough in looking at his YPC is that id venture he catches way more passes behind the LOS than an average WR. with his bubble screens, lining up in the backfield, etc.... I dont have data on that but its a gut reaction

 

 

I would bet a minority of his passes were caught behind the LOS. The problem is that he has played so little for so long, that memories as to what he is actually very good at become foggy--then the hagiography kicks in...

[Doc]

Yeah.......uh, Roger........remember that trade we made back in March for LeSean McCoy?..........well, he is now demanding we re-work his contract..........we'd like to cancel the trade.

 

In other news, the Colts would like Jerry Hughes returned.

 

Yeah, because Hughes or Sheppard refused to report.

 

1) A singular lack of recollection on your part does not constitute a need for a link on the forum.

 

2) Unlike the WR position(see Hankerson, Little, Boykin) at the RB position you can throw 3 castoff at the wall and one of them is very likely to stick(Cierre Wood, Boom Herron, Mike Gillislee). And good RB's are easily found in every round of the draft and into UDFA. Running backs are not scarce and organizations that treat them like they are usually find themselves on the outside of the playoffs looking in.

 

As for shady being a stud RB.......a closer look should have revealed that he was not that. He had a good year when Chip first arrived........so did Nick Foles. But in 3 of the last 4 years he's hovered around league average per carry, doesn't produce big plays and doesn't put the ball in the end zone. His entire game focuses around getting to the sideline safely. That is not the physical back that they needed for the Greg Roman system.

 

1) IOW, you have no proof, just your recollection. That's what I thought.

 

2) You could say the same for WRs being found in every round of the draft and UDFA. And that having a good one or ones doesn't guarantee you playoffs...like the Jets last year with Marshall (and Decker).

 

Shady was a stud before Kelly arrived and after he left. Don't let your personal issues with him rewrite history.

[John from Riverside]

 

 

John..........read what I was responding to.

 

MD was not aware that the Bills had traded the first pick of the fifth round for Matt Cassel.

 

The sequence of events is important.......panic trade for Cassel THEN the receiver they need becomes available.......probably their primary reasonably attained need.........but they've already squandered the pick ideally positioned to land him in trade AND already got themselves into a jam having to re-negotiate Shady McCoy's deal to boot.

 

The Bills made 4 salary significant moves bringing in players from other organizations...........McCoy, Cassel, Harvin and Clay..............none of which were the two primary stated positions of need at the outset.

 

The point is that they veered off course and AS A RESULT ended up throwing a lot of good money at little or poor production and now STILL need to fill those same two positions.

 

I am a believer that a successful organization should have direction and be seeking an identity on both sides of the ball........the identity was supposed to be tough and physical.........and soft players like McCoy and Harvin are out of character for what the offense calls for at the high dollar rates.

 

It was an ADHD kind of approach to the offseason rather than sound, systematic filling of needs in free agency and picking BPA in the draft (reaching for need in the second and/or third round has really taken a toll on the roster depth since Buddy/Whaley were hired).

 

And btw, when a response includes the post of someone else in the body.......it isn't directed at you.

Yes your right sorry

[Manther]

I have to confess I wasn't banging the drum for Marshall last offseason but I was adament that Harvin was a waste of time, money and effort.

I was the same on Marshall and Harvin.

[BADOLBILZ]

 

Yeah, because Hughes or Sheppard refused to report.

 

 

1) IOW, you have no proof, just your recollection. That's what I thought.

 

2) You could say the same for WRs being found in every round of the draft and UDFA. And that having a good one or ones doesn't guarantee you playoffs...like the Jets last year with Marshall (and Decker).

 

Shady was a stud before Kelly arrived and after he left. Don't let your personal issues with him rewrite history.

 

 

1) Amazingly, others in this thread have the same recollection. He also predicted they'd go to the playoffs if memory serves but, you know, maybe I'm wrong.

 

2) Arguing that starting quality RB's aren't much easier to find than top 2 WR is pure ignorance.

 

Shady ran for 4.2 ypc the season before Kelly arrived........league average ypc.

 

He had a boost in year one under Kelly.......the past two seasons he's been ordinary.......including having the lowest yards per touch in the NFL in 2014.

 

Do yourself a favor so you can wrap your head around it.......take a look at the top 10 rushers in the NFL last year and tell me how many are finesse backs like McCoy.

 

It's mostly 220-230# power backs.

 

McCoy is just a famous name tweener......he carries the ball a lot for a low ypc and doesn't break long runs........like a big back....but doesn't bring the physical presence or ability to get to the end zone.

 

The Bills needed their 5th round pick and UDFA to provide all the big runs, the high ypc and the TD's.

 

Shady is fun to watch dance his way toward the sideline.......when his high mileage wheels allow him to so grace us.......but he is one of the most overrated, hollow-impact players in the NFL.

Edited March 25, 2016 by #BADOL