KOKBILLS Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 Rex is the anti-Marrone. After what the organization went through with his attitude and demeanor, the pendulum swung the other way and they fell in love with the bravado and talk like almost everyone always does. He is the type of guy I would love to have a beer with and break balls with, but just is not HC material. Pretty much...
Dr. K Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 Hindsight being 20/20, maybe offering the job to Schwartz (reporting directly to Whaley), still bringing in Roman and a new ST coach, and making all of the same player personnel moves, would've put us in the playoffs this year. Oh well... This is what I said last January they should do after Marone quit. Not hindsight.
The Big Cat Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 It seems to me as soon as the team has a unit that performs they find a way to blow it up. When Jouron was here the D played well, but were on the field so long the got burned at the end of games, answer Gailey. Galiey switch the D and improve the O, the D suffered. Next Marrone. He replaced the O with his own ideas and fix the D. The O suffered answer, Rex while the O isn't perfect it is somewhat productive, but his change in scheme destroyed the D. I know we all get fed up as fans and demand a chance, but if there was more vision from those in power there are several scenarios that could have seen a well rounded playoff team in the last 10 years. Some thoughts: Keep Jouron, force a real OC on him and get him players Keep Gailey Force a real DC on him already had the D players. Hire Schwartz as HC and require OC approval. I don't think any would have been a hit, but it may have been the vision the team has been lacking over the last 10 years. I know the drought has been longer than that, but I believe that Donahue had a vision whether we liked it or not. You know, I took a lot...A LOT...of flack here during the Jauron era for raising my hand and saying "you know, our players suck pretty badly." Everyone said Jauron was the problem. Is it time to reexamine that group think? We all sign off that JP and Trent had no business in the league, and our biggest FA signings of that era were TO, Kawika Mitchell and Marcus Stroud. How many years of hindsight to Bills fans need to understand that Jauron was not nearly as big of a problem as members of this board would have had you believe. How many until we say the same thing about Rex? Unlike Jauron and Gailey, he doesn't have coordinator issues outside of his expertise.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 (edited) I disagree that Whaley is bad to be honest. I think he is a good General Manager. I accept that he has made a lot of moves that will split the fan base, but I think generally this team has been much improved in its drafting in the Whaley era (both as the Assistant GM and the GM). I will be furious if they fire Whaley to keep and prop up Rex and my preference would be to keep Whaley and give him full control of the coaching hire without interference. However, I am at the stage where if the only way to get rid of Rex Ryan is to clean the whole damn house then I am for it. I think Whaley's problem as GM has been not being able, for whatever reason, to be on the same page with his coaches. In Marrone's case, I believe it was because Marrone insisted he had to have a certain kind of player who just isn't commonly available and when Whaley got him the closest thing he wasn't willing or able to adjust to make it work (OLmen in particular). We see what he's doing now as an OL coach, what's that product like? The problem with getting "on the same page" with Rex is that Rex was loudly and all over the media when he got here with "not being a scheme guy" and "everybody wants 6'7" guys who can run a 4.4, just get me good football players and I'll put them in positions to succeed" (not exact quotes, but it's easy to find the interviews where this is the gist. I believe that Rex probably sold the same line to the Pegulas and Brandon and Whaley during his interviews. I think he charmed all of them equally and said what they wanted to hear. That's a problem if what you say does not reflect your reality. Rex can talk the talk, but apparently he is not able to walk the walk. It's very hard for a GM to support a coach adequately if the coach won't be up-front and honest with the GM about what he really needs and wants. I also think there are signs that Rex has gone against Roman at times in what Roman wants and sided with Whaley - which is part of a HC job description, but the HC has to have great judgement and be balanced betwenn O, D, and ST in making those calls and I'm not sure Rex has shown this. Whaley has, IMO, quietly rebuilt the Bills scouting and personnel departments to produce consistent quality both in drafting and in pro player acquisition. Every team and every GM has misses. The miss rate in the 1st round is something like 50% and goes up from there as you proceed down the draft. I don't recall Marshawn being a malcontent when he was here. There were many concerns about off-team behavior, but point me to where he wasn't content with the team? It was pretty clear watching the film that he was taking plays off, not giving maximum effort, not functioning well as a blocker, laughing and whooping it up on the sidelines while the team was losing. He was late reporting to camp (or perhaps skipped OTAs) Gailey's first year. A lot of things that he, after a year or so, did well for Seattle, he was NOT doing here. Edited December 21, 2015 by Hopeful
FireChan Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 You know, I took a lot...A LOT...of flack here during the Jauron era for raising my hand and saying "you know, our players suck pretty badly." Everyone said Jauron was the problem. Is it time to reexamine that group think? We all sign off that JP and Trent had no business in the league, and our biggest FA signings of that era were TO, Kawika Mitchell and Marcus Stroud. How many years of hindsight to Bills fans need to understand that Jauron was not nearly as big of a problem as members of this board would have had you believe. How many until we say the same thing about Rex? Unlike Jauron and Gailey, he doesn't have coordinator issues outside of his expertise. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Jauron is awesome. The fans ran him out of town. Are you the ghost of CBiscuit channelling PTR?
The Big Cat Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 (edited) Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Jauron is awesome. The fans ran him out of town. Are you the ghost of CBiscuit channelling PTR? Go ahead and pull the rosters from 2006-09. If you want to take a good long list of the players contributing to those teams, then turn around and tell me coaching would have made a difference, you have no business challenging any one on any football-related topic, ever. Edited December 21, 2015 by The Big Cat
BUFFALOTONE Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 When Ryan took over the Jets he brought in Bart Scott and Jim Leonhard to help teach the players his defense in order to shorten the learning curve. Ryan took the Jets D from the bottom of the league to the top that year. This season it was widely known that Ryan wanted to bring in David Harris and Dewan Landry most likely for the same role. A few days after the period to speak with FA opened Harris agreed to a deal with Jets, and the Bills kicked the tires with Landry but Whaley came across as if his price was too high. Fast forward to today and the defense is a mess. I think Mario Williams said what alot of other players are thinking. While I feel Preston Brown is a good LB, he is young and I feel the job of leading this defense is over his head. There is too much confusion on the field because Brown himself is still learning Ryan's system. Whaley didn't go hard after Harris because he was on the wrong side of 30 and he viewed Brown as an up and coming player, and treated Landry the same way due to the Bills depth at his position. I have a strong feeling this is a huge point of contention between Whaley and Ryan. It wouldn't surprise me inside the walls of One Bills Drive that Ryan is furious at Whaley for not allowing him to bring in the players he needed to help the team "buy in" to his defense and be able to tutor the other players. I feel if Harris was leading the defense there wouldn't be the discontent that exists today. Also having Landry would help the secondary guys adapt. For Ryan I'm sure the 3 year $21 million dollar deal for Harris would have been well worth it. He is having a great year in NY and would have made a world of difference if he was the voice in the huddle and in meeting rooms. That's where I truly feel Whaley lost the battle in this one. For certain I would expect to see a few Ryan ex players come in next season to not only help others with his defense, but also have players on the team that "buy in". Cuz right now there aren't very many. If you need to bring in multiple ex-players to teach your system....its too complex. We have had more success with Pettine and Shwartz and I dont remember seeing ex jets or lions.
Manther Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 Rex is a one trick pony.Rex used to be a one truck pony. Without adapting and changing the game has passed him by. Rex is now a zero trick pony. He isn't even a pony anymore.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 Go ahead and pull the rosters from 2006-09. If you want to take a good long list of the players contributing to those teams, then turn around and tell me coaching would have made a difference, you have no business challenging any one on any football-related topic, ever. It's true that with the benefit of hindsight, Jauron did a pretty good job of "getting more performance out of less" as far as football talent was concerned, but I'm not sure there's a selling point that he was good as a head coach.
The Big Cat Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 It's true that with the benefit of hindsight, Jauron did a pretty good job of "getting more performance out of less" as far as football talent was concerned, but I'm not sure there's a selling point that he was good as a head coach. Um. Okay. You think he elevated the talent of his team and got them to play better than they actually were, but aren't willing to concede that he was a good coach? Whatever, I don't care. I only bring it up to say that Bills fans have been historically unreliable when it comes to determining that a coach must go.
Luxy312 Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 So you advocate using draft picks on lottery tickets when you could pick up actual players who can contribute like a Karlos Williams? You know it's funny that I agree with both perspectives here. My initial gut reaction is that you don't simply draft a QB to take a shot that you might have a future HOF'er. Then when I go back and look at the Bills draft history, I can see that in the last 20 years, the Bills have drafted exactly 2 quarterbacks in the first or second round. E.J. Manuel and J.P. Losman. To boot, neither of these guys were really high draft picks where there were a ton of expectations out of the box. So for 2016, what do I really want? Well, I don't want to see a forced pick of a QB in round 1, just for the sake of trying. But....if the front office thinks there's a guy that has that potential to be that guy, then I'm good with it. I like what Tyrod has done. He's been the best QB the Bills have had since Jim Kelly. But his biggest flaw is that he doesn't make decisions quickly or makes them too quick. He's got two moves. Lock onto the first read and throw a 1-3 yard pass or wait 3-4 seconds for the deep ball. That won't cut it long term. Some of it is play calling too. How many slant routes have we seen Sammy run mid-field? I don't recall any. Anyway, on the fate of Rex and Whaley, I don't know how I feel. Whaley isn't calling plays. Should he be the fall guy for failed defensive schemes and play calling? I don't see how quite frankly. None the less, there's always going to be someone to blame. Rex won't be a 1-year and done coach here in Buffalo. I think there's almost no chance of that. The Pegula's would look like complete idiots if that were the case. It looks bad now, but I don't believe for a second that starting over completely is the answer.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 If you need to bring in multiple ex-players to teach your system....its too complex. We have had more success with Pettine and Shwartz and I dont remember seeing ex jets or lions. This. Plus....you know....after "winning the interview' and "winning the media" with all his talk about the great talented D and how top-five was a disappointment with these players and how "just give me good football guys and I'll win", it must have been pretty hard for Rex to do a total flip and say "no, you gotta get me these two specific guys whose analytics has them overpriced for their age and ability, or it's gonna be a complete Dumpster Fire around here". That may have been the truth...but if you were just sitting on a yacht or in a hot tub with a guy pontificating on how you're not a "scheme guy" and you can fit your scheme to the players and just give you top-tier talent as football players, don't you think it would be kinda tough 3 months later to admit you were spewing total bullcrap and now here's the straight gouge? Um. Okay. You think he elevated the talent of his team and got them to play better than they actually were, but aren't willing to concede that he was a good coach? Whatever, I don't care. When I don't care, I typically don't respond. Just sayin' There's more to being a good head coach than inspiring players to play above their talent level. Also just sayin'.
billieve420 Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 A major factor in all of this is that the players specifically on defense never bought into the scheme. This took place all the way back in training camp. Dareus complained about DL coach Dunbar not letting them loose and it seemed the scheme was too complicated for them to play fast and loose like they had been previously. What was most disturbing was Rex's inability to adjust his scheme to the talent on hand which everyone would agree is legit. 3-4 or 4-3 it shouldn't have mattered. Rex should have been able to scheme something to make things work. So from Rex on down it was a failure as the players were clearly confused and unable to comprehend. Combine that with all the checks and substitutions things just spiraled out of control. However, the biggest disappointed was the lack of discipline the players exhibited with the numerous penalties. There was a clear leadership void and Rex hasn't learned from the past that running a loose ship is not in the players best interest. However, I don't believe Rex thinks his coaching style is an issue and that will be his downfall eventually.
IronyAbounds Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 Rex is the anti-Marrone. After what the organization went through with his attitude and demeanor, the pendulum swung the other way and they fell in love with the bravado and talk like almost everyone always does. He is the type of guy I would love to have a beer with and break balls with, but just is not HC material. Yes as to Rex not being HC material - 100%% agree. No, as to having a beer with the guy. He is the quintessential self-absorbed !@#$ who has to be the center of attention, always puffing, always bloviating, always selling something, in his case, himself. I couldn't drink my beer fast enough and get the hell out of the bar if I had to spend time with that asshat.
jeffismagic Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 I'm certain you can come up with a couple names that would make a hell of a lot more sense than those two right? Polian and Lafontaine were the two people that Pegulas wanted last time. Who I can name has no bearing.
The Big Cat Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 This. Plus....you know....after "winning the interview' and "winning the media" with all his talk about the great talented D and how top-five was a disappointment with these players and how "just give me good football guys and I'll win", it must have been pretty hard for Rex to do a total flip and say "no, you gotta get me these two specific guys whose analytics has them overpriced for their age and ability, or it's gonna be a complete Dumpster Fire around here". That may have been the truth...but if you were just sitting on a yacht or in a hot tub with a guy pontificating on how you're not a "scheme guy" and you can fit your scheme to the players and just give you top-tier talent as football players, don't you think it would be kinda tough 3 months later to admit you were spewing total bullcrap and now here's the straight gouge? When I don't care, I typically don't respond. Just sayin' There's more to being a good head coach than inspiring players to play above their talent level. Also just sayin'. I don't care to quibble about Jauron. The larger context was what made it worth responding.
FireChan Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 Go ahead and pull the rosters from 2006-09. If you want to take a good long list of the players contributing to those teams, then turn around and tell me coaching would have made a difference, you have no business challenging any one on any football-related topic, ever. The roster sucked and the coach sucked. Awesome point Big Cat. Why did the awesome coach Jauron not dominate at his other gigs? And you, telling me, I have no business discussing football is laugh out loud funny. The man firmly aboard the "continuity for continuity sake even if everything sucks" train. Nice. 10 more years of Gailey calling 5 wide on 3rd and inches would've made the difference. Okay pal.
The Big Cat Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 The roster sucked and the coach sucked. Awesome point Big Cat. Why did the awesome coach Jauron not dominate at his other gigs? And you, telling me, I have no business discussing football is laugh out loud funny. The man firmly aboard the "continuity for continuity sake even if everything sucks" train. Nice. 10 more years of Gailey calling 5 wide on 3rd and inches would've made the difference. Okay pal. 5 WRs was Gailey's issue. All I needed to hear.
mannc Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 Um. Okay. You think he elevated the talent of his team and got them to play better than they actually were, but aren't willing to concede that he was a good coach? Whatever, I don't care. I only bring it up to say that Bills fans have been historically unreliable when it comes to determining that a coach must go. Really?? How many head coaching jobs have Gailley and Jauron had since they were run out of Buffalo? Hell, how many interviews have they had? About as many as Donahoe had for GM positions after he was run out of Buffalo. If anything, the Bills have been too slow to flush the proverbial toilet on the mediocrities that have served as HC.
FireChan Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 (edited) 5 WRs was Gailey's issue. All I needed to hear. On third and one? Yeah. That was a major one. He was a nut. Oh, go ahead and claim he had Donald Jones and David Nelson. That makes him even more of a freaking clown to put those guys on third and one instead of an RB. Really?? How many head coaching jobs have Gailley and Jauron had since they were run out of Buffalo? Hell, how many interviews have they had? About as many as Donahoe had for GM positions after he was run out of Buffalo. If anything, the Bills have been too slow to flush the proverbial toilet on the mediocrities that have served as HC.According to BC, HC careers end after Buffalo because no one realizes how great they were. Edited December 21, 2015 by FireChan
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