Boolay Posted December 29, 2015 Posted December 29, 2015 McCoy certainly does not suck but once again he is an example of Whaley impluse control issues when he wants a shiny new toy. I think the trade was a steal for the Bills but the contract extension and salary was way too much for a commodity position on a player who has begun having trouble staying on the field.
Maury Ballstein Posted December 29, 2015 Posted December 29, 2015 You guys can go all tuel on gillisllie, it's cool. I liked him as a Gator, hope he sticks with us. I see the anti McCoy sentiment is rising for a small portion of Bills fans. Good for you guys, I'm not interested in that cause. The McCoy/Williams tandem is what I want to see. When McCoy gets 300 carries he gets 1300 yards If he gets hurt, then gillisllie steps up again hopefully. Players like McCoy get paid. I'm fine with it. His screen game is cash. Let's upgrade RT and kick some arse.
BADOLBILZ Posted December 29, 2015 Author Posted December 29, 2015 You guys can go all tuel on gillisllie, it's cool. I liked him as a Gator, hope he sticks with us. Ok so you are on record that Gillislee will be no better than Tuel. I see the anti McCoy sentiment is rising for a small portion of Bills fans. Good for you guys, I'm not interested in that cause. So you've posted about 100 responses to the ongoing McCoy discussions that don't interest you? That's like C.Biscuit constantly reminding everyone that their opinions don't matter to him.......the action of constantly bringing it up.....or in your case constantly nterjecting yourself into the discussion.....suggests otherwise. The McCoy/Williams tandem is what I want to see. When McCoy gets 300 carries he gets 1300 yards Players like McCoy get paid. I'm fine with it. His screen game is cash. Your "screen game" is an over-concern with the off field "game" of players like McCoy and Stevie. What matters is if they make the Bills a better team. McCoy is a nice player. He's very overrated.......but he's a nice player. He just isn't the right fit in this offense and in general small RB's aren't getting much play in the NFL because of the emphasis on smaller/faster defenses that tend to neutralize them. Let's upgrade RT and kick some arse. One thing I think everyone can agree on.
machine gun kelly Posted December 29, 2015 Posted December 29, 2015 I like we now have three options and all compliment each other. with better line play, McCoy will improve even more next year. We also have two others with injuries won't see a drop off with injuries week to week.
BADOLBILZ Posted December 29, 2015 Author Posted December 29, 2015 I like we now have three options and all compliment each other. with better line play, McCoy will improve even more next year. We also have two others with injuries won't see a drop off with injuries week to week. I think the improvement is for McCoy to make. He needs to see what his understudies are doing and decide if he wants those yards at the expense of a few more tackles in bounds. If not......he will lose A LOT of carries. I'd like to see them get another quality big back to add to the mix and let Boobie D go. Can't have two RB's on the roster that don't carry the football(Felton).
Maury Ballstein Posted December 29, 2015 Posted December 29, 2015 (edited) I'm clearly here as the opposition. It's also clear some of you didn't watch McCoy as an Eagle where he had a 5 year stretch leading the ENTIRE league in rushing. He's a special player and he got hurt early or he would have performed better than his pro bowl numbers which are under fire. The man himself is unhappy with those numbers, he will provide more and lead in the locker room per his post game interview. Gotta give him another year. If he gets hurt again then move on, if he's healthy and carves it up then no problem. Maybe we just need to wear the color rush jerseys every week. 1 min mark and 2 min mark ? Shady ftw. Gotta click YouTube link to watch. http://youtu.be/QqIAhzY87Zc Shadys cash money. Call your dogs off. And screw the jets. Beat them again. Edited December 30, 2015 by Ryan L Billz
hondo in seattle Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 DW was in a tough position this past offseason. He thought, as we all did, that he had a playoff caliber defense. But he didn't have a playoff caliber offense. So with no franchise QBs available, he went after a RB you could build an offense around. At the time, it looked like a smart move. Many thought a Shady led offense would be potent enough to lead the Bills into the playoffs, considering our D was going to hold opponents to under 20 per game. If Rex hadn't mucked up the defense, the plan would have worked. Our rushing attack delivered this year because DW gave Roman a nice stable of backs to work with. I don't think the money tied up in Shady, KW and MG is outrageous for three good halfbacks.
BADOLBILZ Posted December 30, 2015 Author Posted December 30, 2015 DW was in a tough position this past offseason. He thought, as we all did, that he had a playoff caliber defense. But he didn't have a playoff caliber offense. So with no franchise QBs available, he went after a RB you could build an offense around. At the time, it looked like a smart move. Many thought a Shady led offense would be potent enough to lead the Bills into the playoffs, considering our D was going to hold opponents to under 20 per game. If Rex hadn't mucked up the defense, the plan would have worked. Our rushing attack delivered this year because DW gave Roman a nice stable of backs to work with. I don't think the money tied up in Shady, KW and MG is outrageous for three good halfbacks. DW was not in a tough position........he got a call they weren't expecting and made a hasty decision. Let's not make this out like they hemmed and hawed over the deal. It took a half hour to consumate after the phone call. It looked like a good deal because it was a good RB on a short contract without a lot of cap hit coming the Bills way. The deal got ugly when Shady indicated thru his agent that he would not come to Buffalo and play out his contract.......and the Bills caved. I do agree that your take will be the apologist take on the deal. I am hoping that he sees a couple nobodies outperforming him and decides to learn how to execute Roman's run game as it's drawn up........rather than his own artistic viewpoint......which yielded less. But the genie is out of the bag with these bigger backs. The only reason Karlos didn't take another 40-50 of Shady's carries this year was his own injury issues. And with any luck the Bills will be passing it more so I expect a lot less touches for Shady. Since so much of his contract is guaranteed......he's not going to have a lot of incentive to take that and like it.
Bill from NYC Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 But the genie is out of the bag with these bigger backs. The only reason Karlos didn't take another 40-50 of Shady's carries this year was his own injury issues.The reason the above HAS to be true is clear: Touchdowns. McCoy Rushing: 203 Att./895 Yds./3 TDs Receiving: 32 rec./292yds/2 TDs Karlos Rushing: 87 Att./493 yds./6 TDs Receiving: 8 rec./93 yds./2 TDs Karlos scores points.
GaryPinC Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 DW was not in a tough position........he got a call they weren't expecting and made a hasty decision. Let's not make this out like they hemmed and hawed over the deal. It took a half hour to consumate after the phone call. It looked like a good deal because it was a good RB on a short contract without a lot of cap hit coming the Bills way. The deal got ugly when Shady indicated thru his agent that he would not come to Buffalo and play out his contract.......and the Bills caved. I do agree that your take will be the apologist take on the deal. I am hoping that he sees a couple nobodies outperforming him and decides to learn how to execute Roman's run game as it's drawn up........rather than his own artistic viewpoint......which yielded less. But the genie is out of the bag with these bigger backs. The only reason Karlos didn't take another 40-50 of Shady's carries this year was his own injury issues. And with any luck the Bills will be passing it more so I expect a lot less touches for Shady. Since so much of his contract is guaranteed......he's not going to have a lot of incentive to take that and like it. I have to agree with Hondo's perspective much more than yours. You are right, DW was not in a tough position and they did not delay because having a player like McCoy was on his wish list. I doubt the deal got ugly, I think the FO knew they were going to have to overpay because that's how it often goes with premier free agents. He did the same for Charles Clay. DW gambled McCoy would be a lynch pin to turn around the offense and keep it solid for the next few years. He wanted the playoffs this year and lost. McCoy will probably never be worth his contract but he plays with passion out there and I like having him on our team. I also respect DW for rolling the dice to try and get this team over the hump now, not in the future. Good thing he can also pick talent like Karlos, Darby, and Gilleslee. Sorry you're so bitter over this.
DrDawkinstein Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 Side note on all this "overpaying" talk: Im much happier that fans can now complain about wasting a couple million dollars here or there on top talent, rather than the decades of all of us complaining about the team not willing to spend money on top talent. There will always be something to B word about, and you can be certain that some posters will always let us know. But Im certainly not worried about spending Pegula's money, or the cap which none of us fully understand.
BillsVet Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 Side note on all this "overpaying" talk: Im much happier that fans can now complain about wasting a couple million dollars here or there on top talent, rather than the decades of all of us complaining about the team not willing to spend money on top talent. There will always be something to B word about, and you can be certain that some posters will always let us know. But Im certainly not worried about spending Pegula's money, or the cap which none of us fully understand. Who cares? The team spending big hasn't produced a winner. The team not spending money didn't either. Their cap situation is the byproduct of people like Nix and Whaley never forging a plan with the HC in place. It seems like they tried to build through the draft, failed, and then spent big in free agency. They've given out some massive contracts going back about 4 years and it doesn't work. That speaks to a level of this organization which some people here claim is not the issue. Well, the personnel department is very much a problem. It's clear they won't have the money to retain the OL pieces AND add the defensive players Rex wants. Then, do they get criticized for poor cap management?
BuffaloBillsForever Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 (edited) Who cares? The team spending big hasn't produced a winner. The team not spending money didn't either. Their cap situation is the byproduct of people like Nix and Whaley never forging a plan with the HC in place. It seems like they tried to build through the draft, failed, and then spent big in free agency. They've given out some massive contracts going back about 4 years and it doesn't work. That speaks to a level of this organization which some people here claim is not the issue. Well, the personnel department is very much a problem. It's clear they won't have the money to retain the OL pieces AND add the defensive players Rex wants. Then, do they get criticized for poor cap management? When the Bills are even worse next year because they couldn't improve the roster because of the cap situation Whaley put the team in, the casuals will blame the season on Rex Ryan and run him out of town instead. Edited December 30, 2015 by BuffaloBillsForever
Maury Ballstein Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 Side note on all this "overpaying" talk: Im much happier that fans can now complain about wasting a couple million dollars here or there on top talent, rather than the decades of all of us complaining about the team not willing to spend money on top talent. There will always be something to B word about, and you can be certain that some posters will always let us know. But Im certainly not worried about spending Pegula's money, or the cap which none of us fully understand. The posters who blab about cap room are the hipsters of TSW. Sweet mustache bro. Get another tattoo and tell us more!
hondo in seattle Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 I have to agree with Hondo's perspective much more than yours. You are right, DW was not in a tough position and they did not delay because having a player like McCoy was on his wish list. I doubt the deal got ugly, I think the FO knew they were going to have to overpay because that's how it often goes with premier free agents. He did the same for Charles Clay. DW gambled McCoy would be a lynch pin to turn around the offense and keep it solid for the next few years. He wanted the playoffs this year and lost. McCoy will probably never be worth his contract but he plays with passion out there and I like having him on our team. I also respect DW for rolling the dice to try and get this team over the hump now, not in the future. Good thing he can also pick talent like Karlos, Darby, and Gilleslee. Sorry you're so bitter over this. Thanks Gary. When you don't have a franchise QB, you need a franchise RB. DW made the deal he had to make at that time.
mannc Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 Thanks Gary. When you don't have a franchise QB, you need a franchise RB. DW made the deal he had to make at that time. That is a misconception, albeit one that OBD obviously harbored. There is no such thing as a "franchise RB"--they don't last long enough and even the best RBs are readily replaceable. It is a passing league. (How much good did it do the Bills to lead the league in rushing this year?) If you don't have a franchise QB, you had better have a damn good defense and a lot of other weapons on offense. A running back, no matter how good, is not going to take you to the promised land.
prissythecat Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 That is a misconception, albeit one that OBD obviously harbored. There is no such thing as a "franchise RB"--they don't last long enough and even the best RBs are readily replaceable. It is a passing league. (How much good did it do the Bills to lead the league in rushing this year?) If you don't have a franchise QB, you had better have a damn good defense and a lot of other weapons on offense. A running back, no matter how good, is not going to take you to the promised land. Didn't Adrian Peterson carry the Vikes to the playoffs just a few seasons ago despite very mediocre QB play from Christian Ponder?
mannc Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 Didn't Adrian Peterson carry the Vikes to the playoffs just a few seasons ago despite very mediocre QB play from Christian Ponder? You just proved my point. I assume you are referring to 2012, when the Vikings went 10-6 and qualified for the playoffs as a wild card. Peterson, the best back of his generation, had a career year (more than 2000 yards rushing), yet the team still finished middle of the pack in total offense and lost in the first round of the playoffs, scoring a whopping 7 points against the Packers in the playoff game. I would hardly call that "the Promised Land". It shows the limited impact even the best of the best running backs have on a team's fortunes.
BADOLBILZ Posted December 31, 2015 Author Posted December 31, 2015 (edited) That is a misconception, albeit one that OBD obviously harbored. There is no such thing as a "franchise RB"--they don't last long enough and even the best RBs are readily replaceable. It is a passing league. (How much good did it do the Bills to lead the league in rushing this year?) If you don't have a franchise QB, you had better have a damn good defense and a lot of other weapons on offense. A running back, no matter how good, is not going to take you to the promised land. True. The chief importance of the modern running game is mainly how it supports your passing game. The Bills rushing attack will be more complementary next year when the big backs are getting more carries and either tiring/wearing down nickel defenses or causing teams to put an extra LB on the field. And to Hondo..........it sounds like a real saying....but there is no motto that goes like "When you don't have a franchise QB, you need a franchise RB" ......and "DW made the deal he had to make at that time" is just a hollow, fact-free opinion presented in a manner of certainty for effect. GaryP......the question is did you type those couple paragraphs to set up your "yenta" finish............or did you just get to the end, realize it was flimsy and just nuke it housewives-of-NJ style? In any event, thanks for your concern. What people don't want to touch on are facts......real points that solid opinions are based upon........like that the running game was 20%-30% less effective at gaining yardage when McCoy carried the football..........and almost completely punchless in terms of creating scoring plays. Now what you have going forward is a 28 year old RB coming off his third year of modest production per play in the past 4.........with close to $37M in cap hits over the next 4 seasons.......including $23M in guarantees still unamortized. So when the end of 2016 rolls around and it's rather obvious that he's not going to be worth even a fraction of his upcoming cap hit......and he's much too old to EXTEND to save cap $........the team is looking at $15-$20M in dead money for 2017. That is significant, DrDareustein......because the team is already pushing debt into future years. I'm not saying YOU need to worry about it. I, like you, grew tired of the cap excuses the Littman Bills used to avoid giving away any of their $30M-$40M+ in profits every year. I'm not sure what is more insulting, that it was horded at the expense of winning......or that it was horded to just give away. This is just a topic in a thread that you guys can ignore or discuss, but indifference and support are not the same thing. If you don't care......fine. If you support the deal......then maybe offer up a supporting argument with some facts or take a stand and tell me how next year Shady will return to the 2013 form and rush for 5ypc and 1500 yards and 8-10 TD's. I don't see either of those things.............and that basically means that you guys simply do not Billieve in Shady being anywhere near a "superstar" RB. Edited December 31, 2015 by #BADOL
3rdand12 Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 Eloquently presented. honestly Badol simple answer for me shall be ; lets see what the three headed run game looks like next year with an O line settled in. the very simple answer is, I think McCoy might actually look better next year. maybe much better with a cast of coordinated supporting characters. do we need Felton any longer?
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