Chef Jim Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 Its the truth, on many levels. Breaking up the country, taking away all the southern unionists citizenship rights, introducing anarchy into the mix, yup, destroying the United States as it existed, sure was Then can you explain this quote from Lee: I can anticipate no greater calamity for the country than a dissolution of the Union. It would be an accumulation of all the evils we complain of, and I am willing to sacrifice everything but honour for its preservation. I hope, therefore, that all constitutional means will be exhausted before there is a resort to force. Secession is nothing but revolution. The framers of our Constitution never exhausted so much labour, wisdom, and forbearance in its formation, and surrounded it with so many guards and securities, if it was intended to be broken by every member of the Confederacy at will. It is intended for 'perpetual Union,' so expressed in the preamble, and for the establishment of a government, not a compact, which can only be dissolved by revolution, or the consent of all the people in convention assembled. It is idle to talk of secession: anarchy would have been established, and not a government, by Washington, Hamilton, Jefferson, Madison, and all the other patriots of the Revolution. … Still, a Union that can only be maintained by swords and bayonets, and in which strife and civil war are to take the place of brotherly love and kindness, has no charm for me. I shall mourn for my country and for the welfare and progress of mankind. If the Union is dissolved and the Government disrupted, I shall return to my native State and share the miseries of my people, and, save in defense will draw my sword on none
TakeYouToTasker Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 You're still going with the Lee wanted to destroy the country crap? The assertion that the South wanted to destroy the country is the most absurd sort of revisionism. It was widely understood that states had the right to secede. It was one of the fundamental checks on the power of the Federal government: if the Federal government, at the behest of some or even a majority of the states, initiated sweeping policy changes that were unpalatable to other states, they reserved the authority to withdraw from the Union. The theory was, that this would force the states seeking a change in policy to either: modify the policy to make it palatable to the dissenting states, abandon the proposed changes; both of which would leave the Union in a state where all members agreed on it's proper roll; or to purse the policy with a smaller membership of states as a nation. The North abandoned the founding principals of robust checks on Federal power. By doing so it was the North which destroyed the country, such that Lincoln could attempt to rebuild it under the vision of Henry Clay. Lincoln himself admitted as much. Saying that the South sought to destroy the country is just as dumb as saying that an abused spouse seeks to ruin a marriage when they leave the abuser.
Tiberius Posted January 21, 2016 Author Posted January 21, 2016 The assertion that the South wanted to destroy the country is the most absurd sort of revisionism. It was widely understood that states had the right to secede. It was one of the fundamental checks on the power of the Federal government: if the Federal government, at the behest of some or even a majority of the states, initiated sweeping policy changes that were unpalatable to other states, they reserved the authority to withdraw from the Union. The theory was, that this would force the states seeking a change in policy to either: modify the policy to make it palatable to the dissenting states, abandon the proposed changes; both of which would leave the Union in a state where all members agreed on it's proper roll; or to purse the policy with a smaller membership of states as a nation. The North abandoned the founding principals of robust checks on Federal power. By doing so it was the North which destroyed the country, such that Lincoln could attempt to rebuild it under the vision of Henry Clay. Lincoln himself admitted as much. Saying that the South sought to destroy the country is just as dumb as saying that an abused spouse seeks to ruin a marriage when they leave the abuser. Holding an election and voting in someone they wanted violated a check on power? What? What did Lincoln do wrong by being elected? can anticipate no greater calamity for the country than a dissolution of the Union. It would be an accumulation of all the evils we complain of, And yet...
DC Tom Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 Holding an election and voting in someone they wanted violated a check on power? What? What did Lincoln do wrong by being elected? And yet... And yet he decided that remaining loyal to Virginia was the best choice of a bad situation (that he didn't create to begin with.) How is it so difficult for you to understand this? People's motivations and decisions are not nearly as simple or straightforward as you believe.
TakeYouToTasker Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 Holding an election and voting in someone they wanted violated a check on power? What? What did Lincoln do wrong by being elected? A) The 1860 electoral map does not tell the story you want it to. Lincoln was elected by a Northern majority and did not carry a single state with territories south of his home state of Illinois, save California. The South did not vote for Lincoln, or his policies. B) Winning a Presidential election, especially prior to 1860, did not give Lincoln carte blanche to simply do as he pleased. He was bound and confined by the Constitution and it's checks of federal power.
Tiberius Posted January 21, 2016 Author Posted January 21, 2016 And yet he decided that remaining loyal to Virginia was the best choice of a bad situation (that he didn't create to begin with.) How is it so difficult for you to understand this? People's motivations and decisions are not nearly as simple or straightforward as you believe. Yes, and to help destroy the Union. I understand it perfectly A) The 1860 electoral map does not tell the story you want it to. Lincoln was elected by a Northern majority and did not carry a single state with territories south of his home state of Illinois, save California. The South did not vote for Lincoln, or his policies. B) Winning a Presidential election, especially prior to 1860, did not give Lincoln carte blanche to simply do as he pleased. He was bound and confined by the Constitution and it's checks of federal power. A) So what? They voted and lost. After threatening to destroy the union if the North did not do what they wanted. Heck, they even had--mark this now!--an advantage with the 3/5 clause that they had used for decades to put a strangle hold on federal power. Now they had lost and they were going to destroy the Union? That's bull! B) Great point! So why did the radicals in the south revolt?? * I meant to say, why did the minority in the South revolt? The minority was afraid of the majority and the ideals of freedom, natural rights and republican government.
DC Tom Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 Yes, and to help destroy the Union. Please provide the contemporary evidence that show that Lee's intent behind resigning his commission and joining the Virginia was the deliberate destruction of the Union.
TakeYouToTasker Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 A) So what? They voted and lost. After threatening to destroy the union if the North did not do what they wanted. Heck, they even had--mark this now!--an advantage with the 3/5 clause that they had used for decades to put a strangle hold on federal power. Now they had lost and they were going to destroy the Union? That's bull! Losing a Presidential election, especially in 1860, did not mean that the states whom did not get their preferred choice had to vacate their Constitutionally prescribed states rights. Nor did it vacate the purposeful checks and balances intentionally built into the system, as the entire prior history of the Country demonstrates. The South assumed, quite naturally, that the Federal government, still bound by it's Founding Document, was quite limited what Lincoln wanted to do. Prior to 1860, we had elected Presidents rather than Kings. B) Great point! So why did the radicals in the south revolt?? The South revolted because Lincoln broke the Constitutional compact that the Federal government had with it's member states. Lincoln destroyed the country, and as I mentioned prior actually admitted to doing so, such that he could rebuild it in a way that reported to his personal politics and preferences.
Chef Jim Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 Please provide the contemporary evidence that show that Lee's intent behind resigning his commission and joining the Virginia was the deliberate destruction of the Union. He can't because it wasn't. Interesting how he completely ignored my quote from Lee essentially saying that secession was the last thing he wanted and felt that it was the North that was forcing it.
Deranged Rhino Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 He can't because it wasn't. Interesting how he completely ignored my quote from Lee essentially saying that secession was the last thing he wanted and felt that it was the North that was forcing it. That's what he does. Talks out his ass and then runs from any information which contradicts his ass-speak. Some would call it trolling, but we just call it gatoring.
birdog1960 Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 it was lincoln's fault. the northerners shouldn't have elected him. they should have bowed to the traitors in the south that had no choice but to revolt as lee put it. the rest of the quote you cited is simply a lie proven by history. but that's what traitors do. you all are kooks. you are so far removed from conventional thought that if you we're to be correct on these ideas, you would be considered geniuses. unfortunately, you are not correct and thus should be judged village idiots. the amazing thing is that such radical departure from conventional thought is shared by so many on a single blog. or might that queer agreement be easily explained?
Deranged Rhino Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 it was lincoln's fault. the northerners shouldn't have elected him. they should have bowed to the traitors in the south that had no choice but to revolt as lee put it. the rest of the quote you cited is simply a lie proven by history. but that's what traitors do. you all are kooks. you are so far removed from conventional thought that if you we're to be correct on these ideas, you would be considered geniuses. unfortunately, you are not correct and thus should be judged village idiots. the amazing thing is that such radical departure from conventional thought is shared by so many on a single blog. or might that queer agreement be easily explained? So you not only paint with a broad brush when you look back at history, but when you look to the present. Half the people in this thread have disagreements about what the war was truly about... something you'd realize if you actually took the time to be as smart as you think you are and read the thread.
meazza Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 So you not only paint with a broad brush when you look back at history, but when you look to the present. Half the people in this thread have disagreements about what the war was truly about... something you'd realize if you actually took the time to be as smart as you think you are and read the thread. His assistant probably didn't read all the posts to him.
Deranged Rhino Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 His assistant probably didn't read all the posts to him. Good call. There's not a chance in hell birddog could accurately summarize anyone's position in this thread if he thinks everyone's saying the same thing. Hell, even his declaration that we (again, not everyone is speaking in a unified voice on this topic) are "so far removed from conventional thought" is absurd to the point of satire. "Conventional thought" that doesn't mean what bird thinks it means.
meazza Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 Good call. There's not a chance in hell birddog could accurately summarize anyone's position in this thread if he thinks everyone's saying the same thing. Hell, even his declaration that we (again, not everyone is speaking in a unified voice on this topic) are "so far removed from conventional thought" is absurd to the point of satire. "Conventional thought" that doesn't mean what bird thinks it means. Probably one of the most unlikable individuals I've ever come across but that list gets updated often because of the internet.
FireChan Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 it was lincoln's fault. the northerners shouldn't have elected him. they should have bowed to the traitors in the south that had no choice but to revolt as lee put it. the rest of the quote you cited is simply a lie proven by history. but that's what traitors do. you all are kooks. you are so far removed from conventional thought that if you we're to be correct on these ideas, you would be considered geniuses. unfortunately, you are not correct and thus should be judged village idiots. the amazing thing is that such radical departure from conventional thought is shared by so many on a single blog. or might that queer agreement be easily explained? Your tired attempts to insinuate that every single person who disagrees with you is a racist are getting sad. Do you think it's clever when you draw out that intellectual cowardice into a paragraph?
Deranged Rhino Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 Probably one of the most unlikable individuals I've ever come across but that list gets updated often because of the internet. I never really paid him much mind until recently, but his stunning hypocrisy (and willful ignorance) on this issue alone is enough to rocket him to the top of most people's lists I'd bet. If this is his normal operating procedure then good grief.
DC Tom Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 I never really paid him much mind until recently, but his stunning hypocrisy (and willful ignorance) on this issue alone is enough to rocket him to the top of most people's lists I'd bet. If this is his normal operating procedure then good grief. His SOP is that, and changing the topic and terms of any discussion to "prove" other people "wrong." Just look at this thread. It was about slavery, until you called him out for supporting slavery, then it was about treason. But sometimes it's about racism. Because we're racist, for "supporting" traitors who wanted to own slaves, but it's not about slavery. He's got to be a homeopath. No way he's a real doctor, with that sort of intellectual "skill."
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