New Orleans To Remove Excremental Rebel Monuments

[Joe Miner]

Framing it poorly, and without a drop of nuance; but I think you knew that.

 

You're a bright guy, and I'm 100% certain that you know those aren't monuments to racism or slavery. They aren't sitting there, here in 2017, to antagonize people.

 

There is a new phenomenon, given our society's rush to endow victims with hero status, and advent (onslaught?) of Critical Race Theory, to seek out cause to be offended and outraged where none exists.

Plus the fact that when some of those historical figures were alive, slavery was perfectly legal.

 

Child molestation and murder, not so much.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Our government at all levels is run by cowards, afraid to confront the radical left.

[row_33]

Our government at all levels is run by cowards, afraid to confront the radical left.

 

Oh, the US government has never been afraid to step to it with the left when it got intolerable.

 

the whole world is watching...

[Benjamin Franklin]

 

No, they don't. They reflexively reject the idea based on the reinterpretation of history through modern social mores that didn't exist at the time those men lived.

 

There's no "question" about it...there's not even any discussion, as several in this thread alone have demonstrated. These people have a Taliban-like dedication to destroying anything they don't agree with.

Of course time can make demons of people celebrated in their day. That phenomenon predates our era by, mmm, pretty much forever.

[row_33]

Of course time can make demons of people celebrated in their day. That phenomenon predates our era by, mmm, pretty much forever.

 

Rousseau's corpse was treated as the public saw him a few times.

[Benjamin Franklin]

Framing it poorly, and without a drop of nuance; but I think you knew that.

 

You're a bright guy, and I'm 100% certain that you know those aren't monuments to racism or slavery. They aren't sitting there, here in 2017, to antagonize people.

 

There is a new phenomenon, given our society's rush to endow victims with hero status, and advent (onslaught?) of Critical Race Theory, to seek out cause to be offended and outraged where none exists.

A Lee statue is not a monument to slavery. But it's a monument to the leader of the group of states that fought to keep it. I'm not particularly against it. It can certainly see why people would be. Why celebrate that guy?

 

Paternity and OJ are convicted of no crimes or at least in oJ's case no crime beyond theft.

 

The question is: Do we need to pay tribute to these people? I'd say no, but I also wouldn't go protest or pull down a monument to them.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Benjamin Franklin

[row_33]

I can't hate Stonewall.

[TakeYouToTasker]

A Lee statue is not a monument to slavery. But it's a monument to the leader of the group of states that fought to keep it. I'm not particularly against it. It can certainly see why people would be. Why celebrate that guy?

 

Paternity and OJ are convicted of no crimes or at least Inn oJ's case no crime beyond theft.

 

The question is: Do we need to pay tribute to these people? I'd say no, but I also wouldn't go protest or pull down a monument to them. Just not a priority. I will protest those tributes once we solve some other issues.

Not as I see it. The question is do we want to cede ground to an ideology hell bent on sanitizing history because of their feelings, who equate disagreement with Nazism.

[Benjamin Franklin]

Not as I see it. The question is do we want to cede ground to an ideology hell bent on sanitizing history because of their feelings, who equate disagreement with Nazism.

How is removing a statue sanitizing history? Lee did whatever he did. The question is whether, and how much, you celebrate him through the modern lens.

[TakeYouToTasker]

How is removing a statue sanitizing history? Lee did whatever he did. The question is whether, and how much, you celebrate him through the modern lens.

Robert E. Lee was a "great man" by historical standards, and the lens you speak of in not shared by all, even in the modern sense. For example, as a libertarian rights theorist, I find the concept of slavery to be abhorrent. Probably more abhorrent than most, given my thoughts about free association, and government compulsion; and yet I still find Lee to be a remarkable man, as the man was far more than his slaves.

 

Removing the statue is sanitizing history because it asserts that Lee's entire life, everything he accomplished, believed, and said, is not to be celebrated because he was a slave owner, as if that fact somehow undoes everything the man was. It ignores the entire history of humankind in favor of a revisionism built on a foundation of feelings rather than facts.

 

It's ugly, and dangerous.

[Benjamin Franklin]

Robert E. Lee was a "great man" by historical standards, and the lens you speak of in not shared by all, even in the modern sense. For example, as a libertarian rights theorist, I find the concept of slavery to be abhorrent. Probably more abhorrent than most, given my thoughts about free association, and government compulsion; and yet I still find Lee to be a remarkable man, as the man was far more than his slaves.

 

Removing the statue is sanitizing history because it asserts that Lee's entire life, everything he accomplished, believed, and said, is not to be celebrated because he was a slave owner, as if that fact somehow undoes everything the man was. It ignores the entire history of humankind in favor of a revisionism built on a foundation of feelings rather than facts.

 

It's ugly, and dangerous.

I don't even care a little about the Lee statue for what it's worth.

 

A statue is a tribute. Lee was not merely a slave owner--he was a leader [ed] of the Confederacy--surely you can appreciate that many people would find him unworthy of a statue.

 

Everyone is complicated. Some people deserve to be celebrated. Others don't. The ones who don't get their statues taken down. You can still read any one of a billion books about Lee.

 

Tom should dork up the board and weigh in on Russians taking down the Dzerzhinsky statue in the 90s. It happens. The world can still read about him. The beat goes on.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Benjamin Franklin

[boyst]

How is removing a statue sanitizing history? Lee did whatever he did. The question is whether, and how much, you celebrate him through the modern lens.

should we tear down Sumter, lookout and numerous other barracks created by Lee?

Astatue is a tribute. Lee was not merely a slave owner--he was the President of the Confederacy--surely you can appreciate that many people would find him unworthy of a statue.

 

Everyone is complicated. Some people deserve to be celebrated. Others don't. The ones who don't get their statues taken down. You can still read any one of a billion books about Lee.

you're !@#$ing retard.

 

Jesus Christ. Holy **** Batman. You should lose all ability to post for such a stupid error

 

Like what the actual !@#$... My God. At least I thought you were a well read idiot. Now I know you're a !@#$ing moron

Edited August 15, 2017 by Boyst62

[bilzfancy]

Sure, Lee was a slave owner as we're many in the north as well as the south, but did you know Lee freed his in 1862, 3 years before the end of the war

[Benjamin Franklin]

I don't know where you draw the line. But I don't care that it gets drawn. History has always done what it's doing now: Reviewing the actors with modern sensibilities in mind, rational or not. We are lucky to live in a country where we have a say in the tributes and taking them down or erecting them.

[boyst]

Sure, Lee was a slave owner as we're many in the north as well as the south, but did you know Lee freed his in 1862, 3 years before the end of the war

not only that his personal writings were far more progressive on slavery at the time than Lincoln who was still at great conflict and was heavily pressured to become anti slavery, which he never truly was at any point in his life

I don't know where you draw the line. But I don't care that it gets drawn. History has always done what it's doing now: Reviewing the actors with modern sensibilities in mind, rational or not. We are lucky to live in a country where we have a say in the tributes and taking them down or erecting them.

you draw the line on someone so stupid they do not know history and their own protests.

 

A line where someone accuses Robert e Lee to be the president of the CSA. Jefferson Davis was the president. Also an amazing man. One of their first meetings occured along the banks of Rich Fork Creek in Thomasville, as anyone should know. This is where most of the plan forward began, as Lee was down from Virginia and, and Davis, as well

[Benjamin Franklin]

Sure, Lee was a slave owner as we're many in the north as well as the south, but did you know Lee freed his in 1862, 3 years before the end of the war

That story is more complicated than a sentence and doesn't capture Lee's views, nor what he permitted and encouraged in the Civil War. Let's not get crazy and try to paint Lee as a closet abolitionist. He killed Americans to keep the right to slavery. He used slave labor on his family plantation. He encouraged northern raids to secure slaves for the South.

 

Like anyone, he had some good in him. But on the issue of slavery, he was with the slavers.

 

Apologies to Jefferson Davis. When Boys gets to rightfully point out a mistake, I've gone seriously awry.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Benjamin Franklin

[boyst]

That story is more complicated than a sentence and doesn't capture Lee's views, nor what he permitted and encouraged in the Civil War. Let's not get crazy and try to paint Lee as a closet abolitionist. He killed Americans to keep the right to slavery. He used slave labor on his family plantation. He encouraged northern raids to secure slaves for the South.

 

Like anyone, he had some good in him. But on the issue of slavery, he was with the slavers.

he did this as President of the USA right?

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

I don't even care a little about the Lee statue for what it's worth.

 

A statue is a tribute. Lee was not merely a slave owner--he was a leader [ed] of the Confederacy--surely you can appreciate that many people would find him unworthy of a statue.

 

Everyone is complicated. Some people deserve to be celebrated. Others don't. The ones who don't get their statues taken down. You can still read any one of a billion books about Lee.

 

Tom should dork up the board and weigh in on Russians taking down the Dzerzhinsky statue in the 90s. It happens. The world can still read about him. The beat goes on.

 

Why should we remove a statue because some are offended by it? Clearly not ALL are.

[Benjamin Franklin]

 

Why should we remove a statue because some are offended by it? Clearly not ALL are.

We don't live in a country where unanimity decides. These statues are number 8 million on a list of concerns.

[Cugalabanza]

I don't know where you draw the line. But I don't care that it gets drawn. History has always done what it's doing now: Reviewing the actors with modern sensibilities in mind, rational or not. We are lucky to live in a country where we have a say in the tributes and taking them down or erecting them.

Well said. I feel the same way about this. You could make very good arguments on either side.