birdog1960 Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 It's not clever of complicated. Do you believe slavery is bad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drinkTHEkoolaid Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 It's not clever of complicated. Do you believe slavery is bad? Who doesn't believe slavery is bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 Who doesn't believe slavery is bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 It's not clever of complicated. Do you believe slavery is bad? Slavery has existed since time immemorial and continues to exists today. Erasing history doesn't change that fact, hiding that history doesn't change that fact. All it does is remove our ability as a people to study and understand the mistakes made in the past, which dooms us to repeat them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 (edited) It's not clever of complicated. Do you believe slavery is bad?I believe slavery is morally wrong, as I believe in natural rights and self ownership. Why do you believe it's wrong? Edited December 20, 2015 by TakeYouToTasker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 sane people. reasonable people. people with a conscience. ethical people. moral people. people of good faith. but apparently not you... slavery is bad. it's morally wrong. it benefits a few at the very great cost to many. it's cruel. it's inhuman. it's torture. and it's is antithetical to libertarianism. So Lincoln is "good" because "sane people. reasonable people. people with a conscience. ethical people. moral people. people of good faith" believe "slavery is bad." That's third-grade level logic right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 (edited) Removing memorials to people that killed to continue slavery, from public places is not equivalent to erasing history. It is removing praise for these people, nothing more So Lincoln is "good" because "sane people. reasonable people. people with a conscience. ethical people. moral people. people of good faith" believe "slavery is bad." That's third-grade level logic right there. im arguing that the leaders of the confederacy were bad because they fought to continue enslaving people. That's ad hominem right there. Why don't u attack the argument? I believe slavery is morally wrong, as I believe in natural rights and self ownership. Why do you believe it's wrong? why are you moving the goal posts. Consider each argument separately. Don't move the goalposts Edited December 20, 2015 by birdog1960 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 (edited) why are you moving the goal posts. Consider each argument separately. Don't move the goalpostsI haven't shifted the goalposts at all. I believe slavery to be wrong, and I explained why I believe it to be wrong. When making a moral case, as you are, it's important to explain your morality as it applies to the situation. Otherwise, all you're doing is making fiat declarations, making demands that other subscribe to your morality, otherwise labeling them as evil. So, again, why do you believe slavery to be morally wrong? Edited December 20, 2015 by TakeYouToTasker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 im arguing that the leaders of the confederacy were bad because they fought to continue enslaving people. That's ad hominem right there. Why don't u attack the argument? And it's a facile argument suitable for a third-grader. "Slavery is bad, therefore everything associated with it is bad." So black literacy programs are bad, because Stonewall Jackson personally taught one for express purpose of emancipation and fought for Virginia? Slave states fought for the Union (Kentucky, Maryland, Delaware), therefore the Union is bad? It's not an ad hominem attack. It is attacking the argument: it's facile, and suitable for a third grader. An ad hominem attack is more along the lines of where you called me amoral and pro-slavery, you !@#$ing shitbag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 yes, the kkk is evil as was robert byrd. west virginia is an enigma like much of rural poor america. they often vote against their own best interest. it's a tribute to the power of propaganda. sane people. reasonable people. people with a conscience. ethical people. moral people. people of good faith. but apparently not you... slavery is bad. it's morally wrong. it benefits a few at the very great cost to many. it's cruel. it's inhuman. it's torture. and it's is antithetical to libertarianism so, basically, you're saying the superior folks, like yourself, because you are sane, reasonable, conscious, ethical and moral whilst having faith should have a say over rural, poor america because they voted for Byrd? are you !@#$ing retarded? well, the rural, poor folks down here have a saying. kiss my country ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 so, basically, you're saying the superior folks, like yourself, because you are sane, reasonable, conscious, ethical and moral whilst having faith should have a say over rural, poor america because they voted for Byrd? are you !@#$ing retarded? No, he's just read the classics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 No, he's just read the classics. or the rex ryan playbook? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 (edited) And it's a facile argument suitable for a third-grader. "Slavery is bad, therefore everything associated with it is bad." So black literacy programs are bad, because Stonewall Jackson personally taught one for express purpose of emancipation and fought for Virginia? Slave states fought for the Union (Kentucky, Maryland, Delaware), therefore the Union is bad? It's not an ad hominem attack. It is attacking the argument: it's facile, and suitable for a third grader. An ad hominem attack is more along the lines of where you called me amoral and pro-slavery, you !@#$ing shitbag. No. Not "associated with". "War over" since that's not what i said, i'd call that a strawman. as far as ad hominem, i interpret "3rd grade" as a personal insult rather than an actual critique of my argument. but perhaps it is a critique in a 3rd grade kind of way. oh, and stonewall owned slaves and fought to keep them enslaved. educating them does not absolve him of that. Edited December 20, 2015 by birdog1960 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 Removing memorials to people that killed to continue slavery, from public places is not equivalent to erasing history. It is removing praise for these people, nothing moreim arguing that the leaders of the confederacy were bad because they fought to continue enslaving people. The history of slavery in the Americas is one of my niches. I've studied it extensively, written papers on it and a thesis. There is no question the root cause of the war was slavery and the desire to see the practice continued and expanded into the new territories. But it's absolutely ignorant of history, context, and human nature to make the blanket statement that everyone fighting for the south was fighting for slavery. They most assuredly were not. Trying to argue otherwise is just silly. Memorials are also not "praise" for slavery or for the confederacy. They are memorials for the men who gave their lives for what they believed to be the betterment of their homelands. Erasing the past does not change a thing. It only assures the same mistakes will be made in the future. Also, do you own an iPhone or any Apple products by chance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 (edited) The history of slavery in the Americas is one of my niches. I've studied it extensively, written papers on it and a thesis. There is no question the root cause of the war was slavery and the desire to see the practice continued and expanded into the new territories. But it's absolutely ignorant of history, context, and human nature to make the blanket statement that everyone fighting for the south was fighting for slavery. They most assuredly were not. Trying to argue otherwise is just silly. Memorials are also not "praise" for slavery or for the confederacy. They are memorials for the men who gave their lives for what they believed to be the betterment of their homelands. Erasing the past does not change a thing. It only assures the same mistakes will be made in the future. Also, do you own an iPhone or any Apple products by chance? name me a confederate figure that has a memorial on public grounds that did not support slavery and fight for it. i did not state that everyone fighting for the south was fighting for slavery. yes, apple is my brand of choice. Edited December 20, 2015 by birdog1960 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 No. Not "associated with". "War over" since that's not what i said, i'd call that a strawman. as far as ad hominem, i interpret "3rd grade" as a personal insult rather than an actual critique of my argument. but perhaps it is a critique in a 3rd grade kind of way. oh, and stonewall owned slaves and fought to keep them enslaved. educating them does not absolve him of that. Stonewall owned slaved, and educated them and other people's in order to emancipate them. He fought for Virginia. And calling you a third grader is an accurate representation of the quality of your argument. For example: denying you made an association because you didn't type the word "association." You're making a simplistic, facile argument, and doubling down on an immature "I didn't say 'association,' therefore my association wasn't an association" reducto ad gatorman argument. You've regressed to kindergarten. Going to go for nursery school next? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 so, basically, you're saying the superior folks, like yourself, because you are sane, reasonable, conscious, ethical and moral whilst having faith should have a say over rural, poor america because they voted for Byrd? are you !@#$ing retarded? well, the rural, poor folks down here have a saying. kiss my country ass. i think neil young wrote well on this subject: Southern man, better keep your head Don't forget what your good book said Southern change's gonna come at last Now your crosses are burning fast Southern man I saw cotton and I saw black Tall white mansions and little shacks Southern man, when will you pay them back? I heard screamin' and bullwhips crackin' How long? How long? Southern man, better keep your head Don't forget what your good book said Southern change's gonna come at last Now your crosses are burning fast Southern man Lily Belle, your hair is golden brown I've seen your black man comin' round Swear by God, I'm gonna cut him down I heard screamin' and bullwhips crackin' How long? How long? Read more: Neil Young - Southern Man Lyrics | MetroLyrics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 name me a confederate figure that has a memorial on public grounds that did not support slavery and fight for it. Robert E. Lee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 Robert E. Lee. t the heart of Lee’s story is one of the monumental choices in American history: revered for his honor, Lee resigned his U.S. Army commission to defend Virginia and fight for the Confederacy, on the side of slavery. “The decision was honorable by his standards of honor—which, whatever we may think of them, were neither self-serving nor complicated,” Blount says. Lee “thought it was a bad idea for Virginia to secede, and God knows he was right, but secession had been more or less democratically decided upon.” Lee’s family held slaves, and he himself was at best ambiguous on the subject, leading some of his defenders over the years to discount slavery’s significance in assessments of his character. Blount argues that the issue does matter: “To me it’s slavery, much more than secession as such, that casts a shadow over Lee’s honorableness.” Read more: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/making-sense-of-robert-e-lee-85017563/#433HIQ4cKgFHdP28.99 Give the gift of Smithsonian magazine for only $12! http://bit.ly/1cGUiGv Follow us: @SmithsonianMag on Twitter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 (edited) i think neil young wrote well on this subject: Southern man, better keep your head Don't forget what your good book said Southern change's gonna come at last Now your crosses are burning fast Southern man I saw cotton and I saw black Tall white mansions and little shacks Southern man, when will you pay them back? I heard screamin' and bullwhips crackin' How long? How long? Southern man, better keep your head Don't forget what your good book said Southern change's gonna come at last Now your crosses are burning fast Southern man Lily Belle, your hair is golden brown I've seen your black man comin' round Swear by God, I'm gonna cut him down I heard screamin' and bullwhips crackin' How long? How long? Read more: Neil Young - Southern Man Lyrics | MetroLyrics neat, you know neil young, but please, explain to me what exactly that song is about and put it in context to what i said... because, that song is not at all applicable to anything i said at all. i could quote lynard skynard here, because the Southern man don't need Young around, anyhow. Robert E. Lee. amazaballs. i'm amazed i missed that. t the heart of Lee’s story is one of the monumental choices in American history: revered for his honor, Lee resigned his U.S. Army commission to defend Virginia and fight for the Confederacy, on the side of slavery. “The decision was honorable by his standards of honor—which, whatever we may think of them, were neither self-serving nor complicated,” Blount says. Lee “thought it was a bad idea for Virginia to secede, and God knows he was right, but secession had been more or less democratically decided upon.” Lee’s family held slaves, and he himself was at best ambiguous on the subject, leading some of his defenders over the years to discount slavery’s significance in assessments of his character. Blount argues that the issue does matter: “To me it’s slavery, much more than secession as such, that casts a shadow over Lee’s honorableness.” Read more: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/making-sense-of-robert-e-lee-85017563/#433HIQ4cKgFHdP28.99 Give the gift of Smithsonian magazine for only $12! http://bit.ly/1cGUiGv Follow us: @SmithsonianMag on Twitter you're a moron. you can't make the argument yourself so you copy and paste a link to an article where someone articulates what you are unable to due to lack of intelligence on the matter? i'm an idiot but you're a moron. also, ironic you really bring up the Smithsonian on this, as I was watching the Smithsonian channel the other night do a feature on Lee. They made it a point many times to mention that Lee was against slavery but could not fight against his own neighbors and turn against his state. That it was a major reason he joined the Confederacy. Edited December 20, 2015 by Boyst62 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts