Flip Johnson Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 There are so many variables that it is simplistic to just talk Schwartz's scheme vs. Ryan's scheme. For example, in 2014, the front four was healthy the entire year. Dareus and Hughes were playing to get paid. We had two safeties that played the entire year healthy that were both physical in run support. In 2015, Mario and KW have been hampered or missed significant time due to injury. Searcy is gone and Aaron Williams barely played. All that has to have affected PB52's production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 http://bills.buffalonews.com/2015/12/17/preston-brown-graded-as-the-worst-inside-linebacker-in-the-nfl-by-pro-football-focus/ Can't say it's not far off base. Based on what I have seen he has been left in the dark, lost on the field and the worst part is that it has seemingly got worse the longer the season goes. I like Brown, I think he has a lot of tools to play alongside a better run stuffing MLB. He was a perfect compliment to Spikes. Together, Spikes Brown and Alonso would have been a hell of a duo. Right now, Manny Lawson is our best LB, which says a lot - though, he is playing very well currently. To get all complicated, Brown cannot play close to the LOS by any means. He gets swallowed up and lost in blockers. In comparison, the tenacity of Spikes allowed him to occupy blockers and close down space so other players can assist in the tackle. Alonso was quick and could defeat blockers with speed. Brown is a quick but doesn't have whatever it was that Alonso had to get beyond the blockers to get to the ball. He also doesn't have the nose for the ball that Alonso did but does cover better than Spikes. Spikes' biggest knock in New England was coverage; coverage he had no business going in to, as he did not have the tools to drop. He is a cover the flats and middle without dropping LB. Brown needs play SLB or WLB. Lawson subbing in or playing opposite. We need a better MLB, especially without crap for an NT. Looks like the new scheme "wrecks" careers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 OP the thread title is kinda cryptic... While I somewhat agree with the "make the system fit the player", part of me also asks, how long should Rex have to wait to put in the D system he wants? Because the players we have can't get it, he should change what he does? Interesting debate... I say put in your system and play it out, see who can perform and who cant. The real test is if Rex / Doug get rid of guys that aren't getting the job done and bring in some guys that can. Wasted season, or year one of building something bigger? The pisser is we have to wait a while to see Since this is a Brown thread, I should also add, PLEASE bring in some LBs that are beasts!!! Love to watch those guys crush people, and I'm not seeing a ton of that this year... good post. not that i agree 100 percent but i follow your logic. : ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 There are so many variables that it is simplistic to just talk Schwartz's scheme vs. Ryan's scheme. For example, in 2014, the front four was healthy the entire year. Dareus and Hughes were playing to get paid. We had two safeties that played the entire year healthy that were both physical in run support. In 2015, Mario and KW have been hampered or missed significant time due to injury. Searcy is gone and Aaron Williams barely played. All that has to have affected PB52's production. Absolutely incorrect... This defense asks completely different things of your linebackers and d linemen. Just watch Dareus after the snap this year vs last. Watch Mario... Brown is a middle thumper more than a sideline to sideline guy... Schwarzs scheme fit the roster like a glove. Rex's scheme requires A pro bowl ILB, or two I have come around to the idea Kiko would likely fit the d better as the d line is supposed to eat up all the blocks so the LBs can pursue... Last years d bradham and brown were shedding tackled like crazy- it was not kiko s forte. This defense never looked good all year, not when everyone was healthy and not now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Johnson Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 (edited) Absolutely incorrect... This defense asks completely different things of your linebackers and d linemen. Just watch Dareus after the snap this year vs last. Watch Mario... Brown is a middle thumper more than a sideline to sideline guy... Schwarzs scheme fit the roster like a glove. Rex's scheme requires A pro bowl ILB, or two I have come around to the idea Kiko would likely fit the d better as the d line is supposed to eat up all the blocks so the LBs can pursue... Last years d bradham and brown were shedding tackled like crazy- it was not kiko s forte. This defense never looked good all year, not when everyone was healthy and not now. I'm not debating that the defense asks different things of its personnel, or that Brown is a thumper. I'm saying that Brown had several factors making him look good last year - a suitable scheme, a healthy, dominant front four, and strong, rangy safeties that could help in run support. Now the front four is banged up, he's being asked to be more athletic (not his forte), and the safeties are much less equipped to stop the run. Edited December 18, 2015 by Flip Johnson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 So Brown gets a poor rating. Rex has him doing something different then before. Per his quotes and he sounds as if he still has not mastered it yet. That is my assumption. Preston was considered very intelligent coming up and even noted in his draft notes. He can play sideline to sideline much more effectively than i thought when drafted. and has some cover skills too. he is playing like he has an injury and not always sure with his callouts this season. Personally i think he plays too close to the los too often. moving him off a couple feet might give him better vision. Alonso never could shed blocks, he could only beat the blockers to the play. and in a 3-4 thats would be fine. so can we get him back? On the cheap? Trade Mario to Kelly for Alonso and a mid round pick Brown needs more time in Rexes " system" He is second to Graham in tackles and never comes off the field. Lets give him some love, shall we please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Good read here on Brown (and Bradham) http://buffalofambase.org/2015/12/18/nigel-bradham-preston-brown-reason-bills-defense-lacking/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H2o Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Preston Brown sure hasn't been our "David Harris" like I thought he would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Preston Brown sure hasn't been our "David Harris" like I thought he would be. probably why they want to sign David Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted December 18, 2015 Author Share Posted December 18, 2015 Agree...what ever happened to having a scheme fit the players you have? What a waste of a whole season and a good defense. Rex is not the defensive genius he gets credit for; this was known to anyone with a lick of football sense because he has never been a coach to adjust at halftime or midgame. His history is piss poor with actual coaching. His biggest strength is studying, film analysis and preparation. If everything goes to plan his teams win games but teams are seeing that they can come out and do new and dynamic things on offense which paralyze Ryan. OP the thread title is kinda cryptic... While I somewhat agree with the "make the system fit the player", part of me also asks, how long should Rex have to wait to put in the D system he wants? Because the players we have can't get it, he should change what he does? Interesting debate... I say put in your system and play it out, see who can perform and who cant. The real test is if Rex / Doug get rid of guys that aren't getting the job done and bring in some guys that can. Wasted season, or year one of building something bigger? The pisser is we have to wait a while to see Since this is a Brown thread, I should also add, PLEASE bring in some LBs that are beasts!!! Love to watch those guys crush people, and I'm not seeing a ton of that this year... It's not cryptic, it's just new, hip and trendy #hashtag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 (edited) I'm not debating that the defense asks different things of its personnel, or that Brown is a thumper. I'm saying that Brown had several factors making him look good last year - a suitable scheme, a healthy, dominant front four, and strong, rangy safeties that could help in run support. Now the front four is banged up, he's being asked to be more athletic (not his forte), and the safeties are much less equipped to stop the run. Searcey was the only material departure and even when they had the full roster they were stinking up the place. Injury excuse doesn't wash. Not with the promises we heard. Edited December 19, 2015 by over 20 years of fanhood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 Good read here on Brown (and Bradham) http://buffalofambase.org/2015/12/18/nigel-bradham-preston-brown-reason-bills-defense-lacking/ Doug has a whole lot of work to do... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted December 19, 2015 Author Share Posted December 19, 2015 ughhhh i really feel a two hour thorough post on linebackers coming after spending a good weekend night studying plays and scheme settings, etc... please stop me...oh crap here comes a little bit of it. but Yolo's article is just the tip of the iceberg. this year we are having our CB's be left out, hanging to dry. luckily they are damn good - better than their scheme. that's why ryan had success before, he could hide the **** scheme he has with cb's that shut down most passes. except this year it sure does seem, and i'd have to look, that our cb's are making an exorbitant amount of tackles. to the tune of beating them up. these fancy little sports car cb's aren't meant for that. they're big, fast guys who can match up against a wr (usually one who is stronger and will out muscle them) and not many others - especially rb's and te's. these cb's we have are being tasked this year. our safeties are paying the price, we do not have a gritty hard headed lay the wood tackler like leonhard, george wilson, or such. we have two safeties a few ticks over 200lbs, per bb.com and i doubt thats spot on (both our cb's are under 195, watkins and taylor are 210ish by comparison). our cb's are getting killed because our lb's can't get in to place fast enough. mario williams has been doing a fantastic job setting the edge on runs - a clinic every weekend. hughes has continued his turn around in to closing the outside run (doing fantastic coverage, too - better than our LB's)... anyway, these two guys cause teams to run it right up the gut and the best way to do that is run right at dareus who is strong and quick but cannot use his leverage well enough to shed a block and make a play similar to what wilfork can do. wilfork is a true nt. dareus is a dt. dareus is better at dt than wilfork ever was as an nt because of generational differences and the change to a run offense. runners attack the area that dareus is and cut around and move, and charles and bryant do not have what it takes in the middle. their fast, quick first step gets them in to position where the are easily consumed by two blockers to set the hole. the double team is split and the offensive lineman always gets right to the next level to seek out bradham or brown. bradham and brown are drawn in to the mix way too early and do not allow the play to develop where they can get right to the blocker. this is what alonso and takeo spikes excelled at. as a good mlb against the run you cannot kamikaze yourself in the middle of the line to light anything up - or you end up like brandon spikes who would whiff occasionally (which is why brown was good because he'd clean up the explosion caused by spikes who consumed blockers). brown is left to play football without the help and is failing. it's not a super surprise but it is disappointing and a major reason why i wanted spikes back. especially with the fact that i had too strong of a feeling that ryan was going to !@#$ this defense up. bradham's failings are a mix of that above and more. rex ryan has failed this defense by not using our players to capitalize on their talents; but injuries sure haven't helped him. that and kyle williams has no business in a rex ryan scheme. chris kelsey, though, would have done well in this system, so if anything pisses you off, let that piss you off. rex ryans bull **** defense is good for chris kelsey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 ughhhh i really feel a two hour thorough post on linebackers coming after spending a good weekend night studying plays and scheme settings, etc... please stop me...oh crap here comes a little bit of it. but Yolo's article is just the tip of the iceberg. this year we are having our CB's be left out, hanging to dry. luckily they are damn good - better than their scheme. that's why ryan had success before, he could hide the **** scheme he has with cb's that shut down most passes. except this year it sure does seem, and i'd have to look, that our cb's are making an exorbitant amount of tackles. to the tune of beating them up. these fancy little sports car cb's aren't meant for that. they're big, fast guys who can match up against a wr (usually one who is stronger and will out muscle them) and not many others - especially rb's and te's. these cb's we have are being tasked this year. our safeties are paying the price, we do not have a gritty hard headed lay the wood tackler like leonhard, george wilson, or such. we have two safeties a few ticks over 200lbs, per bb.com and i doubt thats spot on (both our cb's are under 195, watkins and taylor are 210ish by comparison). our cb's are getting killed because our lb's can't get in to place fast enough. mario williams has been doing a fantastic job setting the edge on runs - a clinic every weekend. hughes has continued his turn around in to closing the outside run (doing fantastic coverage, too - better than our LB's)... anyway, these two guys cause teams to run it right up the gut and the best way to do that is run right at dareus who is strong and quick but cannot use his leverage well enough to shed a block and make a play similar to what wilfork can do. wilfork is a true nt. dareus is a dt. dareus is better at dt than wilfork ever was as an nt because of generational differences and the change to a run offense. runners attack the area that dareus is and cut around and move, and charles and bryant do not have what it takes in the middle. their fast, quick first step gets them in to position where the are easily consumed by two blockers to set the hole. the double team is split and the offensive lineman always gets right to the next level to seek out bradham or brown. bradham and brown are drawn in to the mix way too early and do not allow the play to develop where they can get right to the blocker. this is what alonso and takeo spikes excelled at. as a good mlb against the run you cannot kamikaze yourself in the middle of the line to light anything up - or you end up like brandon spikes who would whiff occasionally (which is why brown was good because he'd clean up the explosion caused by spikes who consumed blockers). brown is left to play football without the help and is failing. it's not a super surprise but it is disappointing and a major reason why i wanted spikes back. especially with the fact that i had too strong of a feeling that ryan was going to !@#$ this defense up. bradham's failings are a mix of that above and more. rex ryan has failed this defense by not using our players to capitalize on their talents; but injuries sure haven't helped him. that and kyle williams has no business in a rex ryan scheme. chris kelsey, though, would have done well in this system, so if anything pisses you off, let that piss you off. rex ryans bull **** defense is good for chris kelsey. Stopppppp ahh it's too late. I just saw a Chris Kelsay reference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted December 19, 2015 Author Share Posted December 19, 2015 Stopppppp ahh it's too late. I just saw a Chris Kelsay reference its true. kelsay could absorb bodies and fill lanes quite well. he could not tackle but he would be a poor mans brandon spikes with the ability to set an edge better than spikes. as an inside lb next to brown he would be successful as a jack. maybe a slight upgrade to spikes. he also was smart and made up for lack of all other things with his football smarts. brown isn't dumb but he just does not seem to get the nuances of an intricate nfl system. bradham i am pretty sure just wants to hit anything he can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fixxxer Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 It's a shame that guys that shined last year on Schwartz's defense can look so out of place or just plain below average under another coach. Robey, Bradham and Brown are victims of the new defensive system, I will really hate if Whaley is told this next off-season to look for their replacements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 It's a shame that guys that shined last year on Schwartz's defense can look so out of place or just plain below average under another coach. Robey, Bradham and Brown are victims of the new defensive system, I will really hate if Whaley is told this next off-season to look for their replacements. they signed Robey to an extension after Rex got here. I think he's a good fit. Brown is ok, just not at MLB in this scheme. I don't think we need to worry about Bradham because I don't think they will allocate money toward him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 http://bills.buffalonews.com/2015/12/17/preston-brown-graded-as-the-worst-inside-linebacker-in-the-nfl-by-pro-football-focus/ Can't say it's not far off base. Based on what I have seen he has been left in the dark, lost on the field and the worst part is that it has seemingly got worse the longer the season goes. I like Brown, I think he has a lot of tools to play alongside a better run stuffing MLB. He was a perfect compliment to Spikes. Together, Spikes Brown and Alonso would have been a hell of a duo. Right now, Manny Lawson is our best LB, which says a lot - though, he is playing very well currently. To get all complicated, Brown cannot play close to the LOS by any means. He gets swallowed up and lost in blockers. In comparison, the tenacity of Spikes allowed him to occupy blockers and close down space so other players can assist in the tackle. Alonso was quick and could defeat blockers with speed. Brown is a quick but doesn't have whatever it was that Alonso had to get beyond the blockers to get to the ball. He also doesn't have the nose for the ball that Alonso did but does cover better than Spikes. Spikes' biggest knock in New England was coverage; coverage he had no business going in to, as he did not have the tools to drop. He is a cover the flats and middle without dropping LB. Brown needs play SLB or WLB. Lawson subbing in or playing opposite. We need a better MLB, especially without crap for an NT. So, do you think losing Spikes had a bigger impact on the D than is commonly thought? I thought Brown played well last year. Ryan's D seems to expect LB to cover a lot of ground, which is not Brown's forte I thought Alonso sucked in run coverage. Philly seems to think he has all but disappeared? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted December 19, 2015 Author Share Posted December 19, 2015 So, do you think losing Spikes had a bigger impact on the D than is commonly thought? I thought Brown played well last year. Ryan's D seems to expect LB to cover a lot of ground, which is not Brown's forte I thought Alonso sucked in run coverage. Philly seems to think he has all but disappeared? he doesn't suck in run coverage. He excelled. He just wasn't built to stand up to it all season. He needed someone like brandon spikes or takeo spikes to compliment him like what happened with Lawson being London Fletcher. Alonso at will, Lawson at Sam. Spikes/Bradham at MLB. Or alonso/powell to jack, Powell/Bradham to will, Bradham/Lawson to Sam. Spikes/bradham to mjke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 What exactly is Rex's defensive philosophy then? What kind of defense places every single player out of their element? So we now need three new LBs, a new safety, and a NT? Is that right? If so it's a total disaster and I blame Marrone for quitting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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