BillsVet Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 There's nothing better than a post like this...you couldn't possibly be more wrong about everything in this post. You defend every challenge to your opinion by labeling the challenger as someone that defends the organization at all costs. Every. Single. Time. That's not me. Sorry to disappoint. I'm the guy that blasted the Darby pick; I didn't like the Rex hire. You can paint me with that brush if you want, but you'll find with even a little research that you're wrong. The fact of the matter is that you have a vendetta against the GM, and it causes you to often push agenda-driven arguments as opposed to factually-driven ones. You understandably don't like getting called out on it. Nevertheless, I haven't missed a thing. The team wanted to be run-oriented...they rank in the top 5 in nearly every single rushing statistic. They're 3rd in total rush yards and rush YPG, they're tied for 4th in yards/carry, they're tied for 3rd in rushing TDs, they're tied for 3rd in rushing 1st downs, they're tied for 3rd in carries of 20 yards or more; are these numbers somehow indicative of a disjointed or misaligned running game? No, no they are not, and if that's the crux of your argument--that the RB isn't coordinated with the OL--then you are flat out wrong. As I said before: what it seems you're actually upset with is that the defensive players carried over from the previous regime don't fit the defensive scheme; that's not on management. That's on the coach to craft a scheme that fits his players. It seems that Rex felt that most of the guys could take to the scheme; as we've seen with the safeties and LBs, that's not the case. Thus, they're forced to cut ties with some guys and find others. If you want to criticize the organization, do it for a factually-based reason: they hired a coach who either isn't willing to shape his scheme to fit the players, or who overestimated the players' ability to take up his scheme. Those are valid, fact-based criticisms; your "misaligned running game" theory isn't. I'll try to use another analogy. If you hire an artist to paint your picture and you don't like it, do you demand they change their brush or colors? Or do you get rid of the painter? Because that's what we're talking about here. It's not a coincidence that the finished product every year never ends up right. And it goes deeper than play-calling or the defensive scheme. I like debating the nuances of decisions made above the field of play. And you're position remains that those things are cloudy, so we can't criticize them as much. Inevitably, you place the criticism on players and coaching because those are more obvious entities. It fits with the narrative of surface fans who don't get into the nuts and bolts of team-building because it's not as easily understood.
FireChan Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 How does Rex's offense compare this year to any of the ones he had in New York? It's the second best he's ever had. And he's gonna finish right at his career average below .500.
Dr. Who Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 Seriously, all this complaining and analysis is a moot point. Ryan will bring in players better suited for his defense. The players that remain, presumably, will have a full grasp of the big playbook. The o-line needs a RT badly, but there is hope for that side of the ball as well. If you just can't stand the thought of Rex, better tune out at least for next year.
Dr. K Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 You're assuming that his press conferences tell you everything to know, which I happen to believe is the opposite of true. You're also glossing over the fact the learning pains from schemes DO happen, but also that they happen more acutely when you're running excessively complicated schemes on BOTH sides of the ball, and that has been a huge undiscussed factor when it comes to penalties this year. It's not just about being rudderless and undisciplined. If you want to be pissed at Rex Ryan and Greg Roman for foisting complicated schemes on our players, fine. If that wasn't your expectation, fine. Just know that it should have been. I like that Rex Ryan has been consistently successful in the NFL since most of our players were in high school. I like that he's had success as a head coach. I like that he's not a micro-managing hardass like Marrone. I like that he doesn't coach from the podium (seriously, Bills fans need to accept this very basic fact). I like that our players love him and want to play hard for him. I like that he identified Tyrod long ago and once he finally got his hands on him, knew enough to know what he didn't know and let his OC do his thing without interference. I like that--in spite of highly visible mistakes against KC--he's very good at challenging and making in-game decisions. I like that he knows what he's all about and wont--to the chagrin of Bills fans everywhere--change. The man knows what he's doing. Players will be added and set free to run the systems he wants to run, and I have full confidence that if Tyrod, Sammy and Shady can stay healthy for 12+ games in 2016 and that if it clicks with the defense between now and September, 11-5 is a very reasonable expectation next year. Bills fans tend to forget how he wanted to bring in David Harris. Has anyone paused to think what his loan contribution to this defense might have been this year? It could have helped tremendously. He brought over one player...I'll say that again...ONE player (Alex Carrington) who had previously played in his defenses. Bills fans can't just ignore the learning curve and call it an excuse. It's a reality. And one that we were all well aware of heading into the season. By god we should have been, we've seen coaching changes before. Why Bills fans always think the next one will right the ship will forever baffle me. Thank you finally for replying. I think what our disagreement comes down to is your statement that "The man knows what he's doing." From the evidence of what has happened on the field (I don't care much about his press conferences--he's great at press conferences, actually--very enjoyable and frank), from the disorganized and undisciplined play, from the number of personal fouls and inability of experienced, intelligent players to succeed in his system, I don't see it. I do want to reiterate that I have never been a fan who wants change for the sake of change--I have felt that, as a fan, I don't know everything and for the most part we ought to leave it to the professionals. But in this case I think the results, and the manner in which those results have come about, cast Ryan's competence into grave question. I'll also point out, as someone did above, that when Schwartz came in and instituted a completely new defensive system (which I was wary about, after Pettine's modicum of success the previous year) the team picked it up and played BETTER under him. He did not have to get rid of a third of the defense to get an improvement. A player like Bradham, who had looked ineffective in Pettine's defense, looked worlds better under Schwartz. Dareus came into his own. Mario looked great and people stopped crying about his salary. Kyle and Hughes had fine years. The rookie Brown looked like a steal in the draft. But now apparently we need to get rid of half to two-thirds of the front seven in order to get competent play. But that's getting down into the weeds, and it's clear at this point we will not agree. So we'll have to agree to disagree. If the Bills make it to 11-5 next season I will gladly come back here and say you were right.
BuffaloMatt Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 Firing Rex Ryan would be monumentally stupid. Firing Rex Ryan would make the 2016 coach the fourth Bills HC since 2010. The Steelers will be on their fourth coach since 1966. Do Bills fans not understand the correlation between continuity and consistency? In fact, let's look at the top teams in the NFL and how far back you have to go to count four different coaching regimes. Again, with the Bills, you need only go to 2010. Green Bay ('92), New England ('91), Cincinnati ('92), Carolina, only four HC in the entire history of the franchise (dating back to '95), Denver ('95). So yeah, let's just keep doing the one thing we HAVE been doing: cycling through coaches like toilet paper. It's never worked for us, and it's something successful teams don't do. Agreed. Everyone was clamoring when Marrone took off. Now they are clamoring about Rex. Disappointment and frustration make people think irrationally. I too was skeptical about the hire and Rex bringing his staff in tow. Starting over now would just be a knee jerk reaction.
Bills Fan in MD Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 (edited) If nothing else, the emotion in this thread really shows the toll that a 16 year playoff drought has taken on this fanbase. We really are in uncharted waters here, and it's downright shameful. Edited December 16, 2015 by Bills Fan in MD
thebandit27 Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 (edited) I'll try to use another analogy. If you hire an artist to paint your picture and you don't like it, do you demand they change their brush or colors? Or do you get rid of the painter? Because that's what we're talking about here. It's not a coincidence that the finished product every year never ends up right. And it goes deeper than play-calling or the defensive scheme. I like debating the nuances of decisions made above the field of play. And you're position remains that those things are cloudy, so we can't criticize them as much. Inevitably, you place the criticism on players and coaching because those are more obvious entities. It fits with the narrative of surface fans who don't get into the nuts and bolts of team-building because it's not as easily understood. And once again, that's a bad analogy. It's bad because under your "artist" circumstance, you're hiring the artist based on the idea that he can paint with the colors and materials that YOU have provided him with, the quality of which is a matter of your opinion. That's completely different from hiring a coach and evaluating him based on wins and losses. Once again, it seems that you want to boil a disagreement down to the idea that others don't understand what you're saying. I've more than obliged your assertions here to look at the way that management has constructed the team. The point was quite clear: the pieces that carried over from the previous defensive squad don't fit the scheme that the new coach wants to implement. It's readily evident by watching safeties and LBs blow assignments weekly. This means that the coach has two choices: change his scheme, or change the players. He hasn't chosen to change the scheme, so it's obvious they'll change the players. The fact is that the personnel department had the pieces in place for a top 3 defense last year, and very little changed in terms of personnel (swap Searcy for Darby). They also managed to put better pieces in place on offense, which has lead to a top 5 running game and QB play that has exceeded nearly everyone's expectations (note that it still has a long way to go before they're where they need to be). To me, none of that speaks to an organizational inability to put the right players in place. The only thing you've communicated is "Whaley needs to go". You haven't backed it up with any fact-based analysis whatsoever. The closest you've come to substantiating it is to say that it's deep, nuanced, and akin to arson and artistry. Edited December 16, 2015 by thebandit27
The Big Cat Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 (edited) It's the second best he's ever had. And he's gonna finish right at his career average below .500. Really? He had better offenses in NYJ at any point? Funny, the numbers don't suggest so: Edited December 16, 2015 by The Big Cat
Adam Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 Honestly? I think Whaley is a good personnel guy. I think Ryan is a terrible coach. The Jets declined during his time there. The Bills aren't close to what they were last year- and I'm not big on Tyrod Taylor as a longterm solution, but I think he brings a lot of things we lacked to the table. Personnel-wise, we are better than last year, but coaching-wise we aren't even close. I think the way the fans were to Marrone when he left was an embarrassment to them, their families and the entire town. Pegula should have given him a blank checkbook to stay. Think I'm just trolling? Save this post and show it to me if he doesn't do well when he gets a viable head coaching guy. He's the real deal.
Dr. Who Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 thebandit27, I think your reasoning and thought process is sound, but sometimes one just has to realize when dialogue isn't going to get you anywhere but perpetual frustration.
snafu Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 Firing Rex Ryan would be monumentally stupid. Firing Rex Ryan would make the 2016 coach the fourth Bills HC since 2010. The Steelers will be on their fourth coach since 1966. Do Bills fans not understand the correlation between continuity and consistency? In fact, let's look at the top teams in the NFL and how far back you have to go to count four different coaching regimes. Again, with the Bills, you need only go to 2010. Green Bay ('92), New England ('91), Cincinnati ('92), Carolina, only four HC in the entire history of the franchise (dating back to '95), Denver ('95). So yeah, let's just keep doing the one thing we HAVE been doing: cycling through coaches like toilet paper. It's never worked for us, and it's something successful teams don't do. Agreed. There have been six Defensive Coordinators in the past 10 years: Perry Fewell, 2006–2009** (under Jauron) George Edwards, 2010–11 (under Gailey) Dave Wannstedt, 2012 (under Gailey) Mike Pettine, 2013 (under Marrone) Jim Schwartz, 2014 (under Marrone) Dennis Thurman, 2015-present (under Ryan) Not only that, it hurts the defense even more when each coordinator brings a different style (3-4 vs. 4-3 vs. wide 9) and expects the players to fit in and play. Then that begets changing the players who don't fit in and then the job is never completed where the defensive personnel fit the scheme. A lot of that pendulum-swinging can be laid at the feet of upper management who could have and probably should have insisted that each new coordinator bring in the same scheme as his predecessor. There are enough coaching candidates each offseason to get that accomplished each time the team needs a change. At a minimum the team should choose a style of play and then stick with it - no matter who the coach eventually is. Major changes should only be made when absolutely necessary IMO.
Deranged Rhino Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 Honestly? I think Whaley is a good personnel guy. I think Ryan is a terrible coach. The Jets declined during his time there. The Bills aren't close to what they were last year- and I'm not big on Tyrod Taylor as a longterm solution, but I think he brings a lot of things we lacked to the table. Personnel-wise, we are better than last year, but coaching-wise we aren't even close. I think the way the fans were to Marrone when he left was an embarrassment to them, their families and the entire town. Pegula should have given him a blank checkbook to stay. Think I'm just trolling? Save this post and show it to me if he doesn't do well when he gets a viable head coaching guy. He's the real deal. But the way Marrone left wasn't an embarrassment to any sense of professionalism, leadership, or sense of honor? He abandoned the team without telling any of the players in an effort to chase a better job. And he was lousy as a coach in Buffalo, he ran over everyone in the building who didn't outrank him, completely botched the offensive line and entire offensive scheme. He's a joke. Marrone is a lot of things, but "the real deal" is NOT one of them.
FireChan Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 Really? He had better offenses in NYJ at any point? Funny, the numbers don't suggest so: The 2010 NYJ had the 11th ranked offense in the NFL. The highest ranked offense Rex has ever had. Either way, its either his best or second best, and he's still finishing below .500. I thought you were making the case that Rex is doing fine?
finn Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 It is hard for fans, media, etc. to separate the drought from what is happening now. To look at this team differently than the one in 2010, 2005, and 2000 because the outcome was the same. But it is, obviously, different. Except that it isn't different, obviously. "It's just (fill in the blank)'s first year! Give him time. Look, he brought in different schemes, and the players have to adjust!" Sixteen years of this, YoloinOhio, and you say it's different this year? The burden of proof is on you to back up your claim, not on those who think it is exactly more of the same.
DriveFor1Outta5 Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 (edited) Like it or not we're all in on Rex. He's not going anywhere. I'm not remotely pleased with him, but he wouldn't be the first to go. Another bad season next year is more likely to cost Whaley his job imo. I know Whaley's often considered a saint around here for his ability to create teams that hover around .500 but GM's don't stick around with those types of resumes. Second year coaches do. Edited December 16, 2015 by DriveFor1Outta5
Adam Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 But the way Marrone left wasn't an embarrassment to any sense of professionalism, leadership, or sense of honor? He abandoned the team without telling any of the players in an effort to chase a better job. And he was lousy as a coach in Buffalo, he ran over everyone in the building who didn't outrank him, completely botched the offensive line and entire offensive scheme. He's a joke. Marrone is a lot of things, but "the real deal" is NOT one of them. No it wasn't. He protected himself in the case of an ownership change, and saw it as a bad job. A certain coach who did some ridiculous things when he quit a job, won quite a few superbowls
finn Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 Agreed. Everyone was clamoring when Marrone took off. Now they are clamoring about Rex. Disappointment and frustration make people think irrationally. I too was skeptical about the hire and Rex bringing his staff in tow. Starting over now would just be a knee jerk reaction. This point keeps coming up, but it overlooks the very good possibility--or probability-that the coach is awful and the team is going nowhere under him, no matter how many years he has. Marrone was junior varsity, and Rex is a clown. Yes, continuity is important, but you want continuity with a good coach, not a bad one. So keep the "Continuity!" argument for when someone competent is in place, ok? I keep hoping Pegula had the sense to put a clause in Ryan's contract that stipulated playoffs in the first year or the contract is void. A blowhard like Ryan would have signed it in a flash, and it would make firing the fool much easier.
RussellDopeland Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 Rex has turned this franchise into a laughingstock. His grandiose proclamations- "building a bully", "get ready 'cause we're going" have besmirched a great football town and fanbase. Wide Right; Super Bowl losses; Homerun Throwback; the playoff drought- all bad. But Rex Ryan has proven to be a bigger embarassment then any of those events. League-wide, fans look at our blowhard headcoach and his mouthy players (who have adopted his motormouth persona) and snicker. Instead of being viewed as a great football town with tremendous fan support- we're a pun, a joke, an object of derision. I guess I'd rather be viewed as "loveable losers" than a bunch of d-bags. Thank's Rex!
26CornerBlitz Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 No it wasn't. He protected himself in the case of an ownership change, and saw it as a bad job. A certain coach who did some ridiculous things when he quit a job, won quite a few superbowls Wait! You're comparing Marrone with Belichick?
mannc Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 But the way Marrone left wasn't an embarrassment to any sense of professionalism, leadership, or sense of honor? He abandoned the team without telling any of the players in an effort to chase a better job. And he was lousy as a coach in Buffalo, he ran over everyone in the building who didn't outrank him, completely botched the offensive line and entire offensive scheme. He's a joke. Marrone is a lot of things, but "the real deal" is NOT one of them. Thank you. To those who blame the Bills' woes on a lack of "continuity", which coach over the last 16 years do you think was run out of town prematurely? Which guy, if given the chance, would have put the Bills over the top? Jauron? Gregggg Williams? Meat-head? Sorry, I'm not buying it. Keeping a lousy coach around for the sake of continuity is nothing more than a waste of time and opportunities, and we're running out of time here. I was a big fan of the Rex hire, but I've seen enough. He's not the guy and the sooner OBD recognizes that, the better.
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