reddogblitz Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 Arguing about Sammy's ability or value is pointless. The real issue at hand is the fact that you never give up what we did for a WR. Nothing will ever change that. Only a prized QB would be worth it. It set us back. We could still have gotten a great WR. No matter how much you love Sammy, it made no sense. So what do we do? Not try to get good players because we don't have a golden armed "franchise QB"? Then we'll still suck. take a look at the San Diego Chargers. I loved the Sammy move because we DIDN'T have a good QB. Get someone who can catch footballs that aren't perfectly thrown to compensate for our bad football throwing QBs. made perfect sense to me and still does. Sammy was right. He needs 10 targets a game.
DriveFor1Outta5 Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 (edited) So what do we do? Not try to get good players because we don't have a golden armed "franchise QB"? Then we'll still suck. take a look at the San Diego Chargers. I loved the Sammy move because we DIDN'T have a good QB. Get someone who can catch footballs that aren't perfectly thrown to compensate for our bad football throwing QBs. made perfect sense to me and still does. Sammy was right. He needs 10 targets a game. We take another talented wide out without selling the farm to do it. We could have still gotten a WR without losing future picks. That's where my QB arguement comes into play. We need a complete team. Obviously we don't have that. The results of this season proved that. We were in no position to lose draft picks. If you have Tom Brady etc. you can afford that. We don't have that so we needed to build a complete team. Losing picks for a WR in a deep draft class was absurb. I never said we should stop "trying to get good players". I didn't like the Sammy trade for that very reason. It meant that we got fewer good players. Also Sammy got his 10 targets last week. Tyrod locked in on him, and it was detrimental to the offense. Edited December 16, 2015 by DriveFor1Outta5
QCity Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 Arguing about Sammy's ability or value is pointless. The real issue at hand is the fact that you never give up what we did for a WR. Nothing will ever change that. Only a prized QB would be worth it. It set us back. We could still have gotten a great WR. No matter how much you love Sammy, it made no sense. The arguement that OBJ is in a better situation because he has Manning confuses me as well. That means you're saying we have no QB. If we had no QB, what business did we have trading away the future for a WR? Think about it. This isn't about Sammy. It's about the lack of foresight from our front office. We take another talented wide out without selling the farm to do it. We could have still gotten a WR without losing future picks. That's where my QB arguement comes into play. We need a complete team. Obviously we don't have that. The results of this season proved that. We were in no position to lose draft picks. If you have Tom Brady etc. you can afford that. We don't have that so we needed to build a complete team. Losing picks for a WR in a deep draft class was absurb. I never said we should stop "trying to get good players". I didn't like the Sammy trade for that very reason. It meant that we got fewer good players. Also Sammy got his 10 targets last week. Tyrod locked in on him, and it was detrimental to the offense. 100% correct.
Rico Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 I was really hoping the Bills moved up for Mack, but then they announced Sammy. I don't think there's any question that if Sammy was on the Giants, he'd equal or surpass OBJ. But boy would I love to see Mack in a Bills jersey. Equal or surpass him? I like Sammy, but I doubt there is a GM in the league that would take him over OBJ right now, other than DW.
simpleman Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 This was exactly my thinking when they announced the trade with Cleveland. Why else pay such a high cost to move up a few spots -- obviously to get the premier talent in the draft. I remember many pundits suggesting Mack should be the top pick, over Clowney (and he's turned out to be a better player than Clowney, too). I did think Watkins was the best receiver in the draft, to be honest, and I still think he's going to be a great player, I did not see Beckham developing like he has. Of course he has Manning throwing to him so that's a big advantage also. Also Kiko has not figured out the pro game, or offensive coordinators have figured out how to beat him. On the Bills TD run on Sunday, Kiko was in position but overran the play. How many times did we see him do that for Buffalo? I agree. I'm not saying Watkins isn't a very good WR. Or that I had a clue just how good Beckman really was going to be in the NFL at that time. In hindsight, I was blinded by Kiko's first few games and overlooked his fade as the season progressed. But at the time I thought the position change for Kiko, putting him in the other LB position that seemed better suited for his skillset, and working in tandem with Mack would create an awesome combination on the field.
machine gun kelly Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 Last year we didn't need an OLB for a 3-4. Mack is going to be excellent, and what muddies the water is Sammy's 7 injuries. It's always hindsight to see OBJ and say we should have stayed put. The flip side this year is no one thought Darby and Karlos Williams were great picks, but it turns out they each are solid players who will start for us for some time. Karlos is the perfect compliment to McCoy. I know he's hurt but RB's get hurt.
papazoid Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 (edited) Arguing about Sammy's ability or value is pointless. The real issue at hand is the fact that you never give up what we did for a WR. Nothing will ever change that. Only a prized QB would be worth it. It set us back. We could still have gotten a great WR. No matter how much you love Sammy, it made no sense. The arguement that OBJ is in a better situation because he has Manning confuses me as well. That means you're saying we have no QB. If we had no QB, what business did we have trading away the future for a WR? Think about it. This isn't about Sammy. It's about the lack of foresight from our front office. agreed. other motivation was at play. both whaley and russ were concerned about their short term future employment. long term concerns went out the window. Edited December 16, 2015 by papazoid
truth on hold Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 Equal or surpass him? I like Sammy, but I doubt there is a GM in the league that would take him over OBJ right now, other than DW. Mack either .... I bet a poll of 32 GMs, would have 31 of them taking Mack over Watkins
Nihilarian Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 Simple question: What would Watkins do with Eli Manning as his QB? This year the BIlls will roughly pick 8-12th. Go get the best WR to accompany Watkins. Next year's offense will look great with TT, McCoy, Watkins, Clay, Woods and the new WR. This way Woods would be #3 where he belongs and Hogan would fall down the totum poll where he belongs as well! If were gonna lose 23-20, 17-13 etc....might as well make it exciting and lose 35-31 Let me answer that simple question. He would not be as productive simply because of the injuries. Watkins was playing hurt all last year with various injuries, and yet managed to play every game but was limited. Then for whatever reason the team used him as a decoy quite a bit. This year he missed three games due to an injury. So many Bills fans throw out the argument that he doesn't have a top QB throwing to him every game like Beckham does. Yet, another guy by the name of DeAndre Hopkins is #4 in the NFL in yards this year with scrubs like Ryan Mallett, Brian Hoyer, TJ Yates throwing to him. So the Bills fans excuse about the QB doesn't wash. The more simple truth is the Bills QB's just aren't targeting Watkins enough, and would rather throw to the single covered receivers. Or is Watkins doing enough to get open to see more targets?
NOVABillsFan Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 this is his 2nd season, he finished with 982 yards and 6 TD's last season in 16 games, he currently has 716 yards and 7 TD's and he's on pace to have 930 yards in 14 games and people are calling him a bust? Unbillievable.
YoloinOhio Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 this is his 2nd season, he finished with 982 yards and 6 TD's last season in 16 games, he currently has 716 yards and 7 TD's and he's on pace to have 930 yards in 14 games and people are calling him a bust? Unbillievable. Someone actually called him a bust? This board never fails in its humor. @ProFootballWire: NFL Wednesday morning one-liners - Sammy Watkins is off to the best start of any receiver in Bills history. https://t.co/0JEEXTLvus
34-78-83 Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 Can't catch it without being targeted. Mack aside, 32 out of 32 GMs would have taken Sammy over ODB at the time. I think they are comparable. No regrets at all though.Sammy has Julio Jones potential. ODB reminds me of Victor cruz without the injuries.
PromoTheRobot Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 I think too many people here are wasting their talents on TBD. If you have the ability to know with absolute certainty what players will excel and those who will bust, you should be part of an NFL front office. I know I'm impressed.
Dorkington Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 (edited) NYG off plays: 842 OBJ targets/runs: 143 OBJ yds/play: 9.25 OBJ usage rate: 16.98% Buf off plays: 819 SW targets/runs: 66 SW yds/play: 10.86 SW usage rate: 8.06% I think this basically tells the story. NY funnels a lot more of it's offense through OBJ. They also pass more in general (500 attempts for 59.4%, compared to 392 for 47.8%), and the Bills (imo) have a better TE and RB stealing targets. It's easy to simply say Sammy sucks. But I think there's more to the story than that. I'm happy with the pick. He was more of a sure thing than Beckham (and Beckham wasn't even going to be our choice, Ebron was), and we needed a #1. Edited December 16, 2015 by Dorkington
thebandit27 Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 NYG off plays: 842 OBJ targets/runs: 143 OBJ yds/play: 9.25 OBJ usage rate: 16.98% Buf off plays: 819 SW targets/runs: 66 SW yds/play: 10.86 SW usage rate: 8.06% I think this basically tells the story. NY funnels a lot more of it's offense through OBJ. They also pass more in general (500 attempts for 59.4%, compared to 392 for 47.8%), and the Bills (imo) have a better TE and RB stealing targets. It's easy to simply say Sammy sucks. But I think there's more to the story than that. I'm happy with the pick. He was more of a sure thing than Beckham (and Beckham wasn't even going to be our choice, Ebron was), and we needed a #1. So, wait, you're saying that context matters? I feel like we need a pinned thread at the top of the board titled, in all caps "CONTEXT MATTERS"...seriously.
87168 Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 OBJ > Sammy and it is not even close haha it's always good to start the day off with a decent chuckle. thank you!
BarleyNY Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 Seems like a lot of posters are sold on the assumption that the only things holding Watkins back are out of his control. QB play, play calling, coaching, targets, etc. I'm not sold. The picture of who he is is coming into focus and it's very good, but not as great as some here are espousing. He is excellent when against one on one coverage as few CBs can handle him alone. He has great body control and speed. But he does not have the elite ability to beat double coverage if he's the focus of it. I've seen him beat double coverage when the safety is late - and that's a nod to his speed - but if the safety is there in time, Watkins isn't making a play. That is my concern with him getting more targets. More targets equals more attention from defenses and that takes him out of the game with double coverages. What I'd like to see the Bills do is find another WR who is a deep threat and also requires double coverage.* Watkins' stats would explode. Then they need to find a shifty slot receiver to open the middle of the field for Clay, too. Those two additions along with the OL are my offensive priorities if I'm Whaley. *I know Harvin was supposed to be that guy this season. The fact that Whaley and Rex took such a big risk with a problem player like him points to the importance they place on having another deep threat.
Dorkington Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 I totally forgot about Harvin... Harvin probably stole quite a few targets early in the season too.
KD in CA Posted December 16, 2015 Posted December 16, 2015 NY funnels a lot more of it's offense through OBJ. They also pass more in general (500 attempts for 59.4%, compared to 392 for 47.8%), and the Bills (imo) have a better TE and RB stealing targets. But there's a reason for that. Yes some of it has to do with the Giants' superior QB, but the reason they throw to OBJ all the time is because it pays dividends. He gets open and makes great catches. Face it, he's already in the very top tier with Dez, A Brown and J Jones and that is unlikely to change. No one thinks Sammy sucks, but it's a little hard to swallow when they spent 3 picks on a WR with 3 big WR names on the board (and of course it turns out one of the other two is already an All Pro). It's not like OBJ is a guy no one saw coming; there was no reason to believe Watkins was that superior a player to Evans or OBJ that he was worth those extra picks. It's another lesson in why trading up in the first round is usually a mistake. It won't do us much good to whine about it for the next ten years, but it sure is frustrating watching the Bills FO make the same mistakes time after time.
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