I like Sammy, but wow Mack looks like the better player

[K D]

Don't worry. If we had Mack, Rex would misuse him and have him covering WR's instead of rushing the QB

[abc]

Clear as day ODB is better, running routes, getting separation, consistently catching the ball, and making spectacular catches Watkins isnt....doesn't matter who the QB is to see those things. IMO Beckham is the best player in the league right now. As I said in a different thread, Sammy is more like a bigger Lee Evans, than a smaller Julio Jones. He gets some first half strikes, but after defenses adjust to his speed, he becomes largely invisible...doesn't have the route running ability to get separation, running ability to turn short routes and reverses into big gains, nor the vertical to win jump balls. Against eagles also had some crucial drops.

 

He's good and can help win games....as Lee Evans was...but to compare him to OBD and a handful of other trule elite WRs is kinda silly.

Agree with this, although I think Lee Evans is a bit of an undersell and if we want to stick with former Bills as benchmarks I'd say Sammy is somewhere between Lee Evans and Eric Moulds. A very good to great receiver for sure but not OBD, Megatron, J. Jones type. The trade to move up to get him was silly but that's what you get with fantasy football GM Whaley.

[Johnny Hammersticks]

Sammy had a terrible game against the Eagles. These guys need to stop believing their own hype and start focusing on winning. Enough of this.

5 catches for 81 yards and a TD is a terrible game?

[papazoid]

#1 - the bills "hit" on the sammy trade. he is a stud.

 

#2- if sammy & ODB switched teams/qb's....no one would be talking about ODB.

 

#3- if Sammy is only targeted 5-7 times a game, an argument could be made that Mack would be more valuable simply because he is involved in more plays.

[NOVABillsFan]

#1 - the bills "hit" on the sammy trade. he is a stud.

 

#2- if sammy & ODB switched teams/qb's....no one would be talking about ODB.

 

#3- if Sammy is only targeted 5-7 times a game, an argument could be made that Mack would be more valuable simply because he is involved in more plays.

How dare you for using logic think rationally here.

Edited December 15, 2015 by NOVABillsFan

[Garranimal]

How dare you for using logic here.

Uh, that's not logic, #s 1 & 2 are unsubstantiated opinions stated as fact.

 

#3 is the perfect example of lies, damned lies and statistics. 5-7 targets may be fact, but the reason for those number of targets has so many variables that in and of itself it can be used for or against the argument.

[Chuck Wagon]

ODB

 

142 Targets

 

Catch % - 60% of targets

Yards per Target - 9.29

Touchdown % - 8.45 % of targets

 

 

Sammy

 

64 Targets

 

Catch % - 61% of targets

Yards per Target - 11.19

Touchdown % - 11% of targets

 

 

The Giants design ways to get Beckham open, move him all over the formation and feed him with targets. Sammy largely lines up in the same spots and runs the same few routes. ODB has made some highlight catches, but he's also missed some easy ones he's tried to turn into highlights. Sammy's move on Revis to clinch the Jets game was a thing of beauty, but that's not leading sportscenter. You can argue Sammy's production may diminish with more targets, but looking at how each team uses each guy and the end result of their targets, it's conjecture to say ODB is clearly a better player than Sammy.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Chuck Wagon

[DrDawkinstein]

So a Mack highlight reel circulates on social media and this is the thread we get out of it. Bills fans are so easily swayed into hating our own choices and players...

[YoloinOhio]

So a Mack highlight reel circulates on social media and this is the thread we get out of it. Bills fans are so easily swayed into hating our own choices and players...

this was the thread that we originally got out of it - guess it actually focused too much on Mack himself and didn't have enough anti-Bills spin to it, and we needed another

 

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/183676-kahlil-mack-wow/

Edited December 15, 2015 by YoloinOhio

[NOVABillsFan]

Uh, that's not logic, #s 1 & 2 are unsubstantiated opinions stated as fact.

 

#3 is the perfect example of lies, damned lies and statistics. 5-7 targets may be fact, but the reason for those number of targets has so many variables that in and of itself it can be used for or against the argument.

I fixed it for you.

 

WRT damned lies and statistics. The smaller the sample size the less reliable the analysis.

[Santana]

ODB

 

142 Targets

 

Catch % - 60% of targets

Yards per Target - 9.29

Touchdown % - 8.45 % of targets

 

 

Sammy

 

64 Targets

 

Catch % - 61% of targets

Yards per Target - 11.19

Touchdown % - 11% of targets

 

 

The Giants design ways to get Beckham open, move him all over the formation and feed him with targets. Sammy largely lines up in the same spots and runs the same few routes. ODB has made some highlight catches, but he's also missed some easy ones he's tried to turn into highlights. Sammy's move on Revis to clinch the Jets game was a thing of beauty, but that's not leading sportscenter. You can argue Sammy's production may diminish with more targets, but looking at how each team uses each guy and the end result of their targets, it's conjecture to say ODB is clearly a better player than Sammy.

Very well put! It is what it is....We have a more talented team than the Giants regardless. We have a more talented roster than almost every team we lost to this year actually, it takes more than just players to get wins in the NFL. With this coaching staff it doesn't matter who we have.

[Boatdrinks]

6 straight 100+ yard games though. 8 TD's in that stretch.

Eli Manning throwing the ball. He's a lot more accomplished QB than Tyrod. He's going to target him and put the ball where he can go get it consistently. They also spent a ton of practice time together .

[Sisyphean Bills]

Eli Manning throwing the ball. He's a lot more accomplished QB than Tyrod. He's going to target him and put the ball where he can go get it consistently. They also spent a ton of practice time together .

 

I don't get crediting Manning for Beckham's insane circus catches. "Great throws" don't produce superhuman grabs. OBJ is, quite simply, a great player who makes catches no one else can.

[Santana]

 

I don't get crediting Manning for Beckham's insane circus catches. "Great throws" don't produce superhuman grabs. OBJ is, quite simply, a great player who makes catches no one else can.

You have to take in consideration who's throwing him the ball though. That's a huge part of it. Having a QB like Eli instead of Tyrod is an enormous advantage. Eli has seen every type of coverage, he knows how to go through his progressions, he makes sure that ODB is lined up in more advantageous spots on the field as opposed to what Tyrod does.

[disco]

 

Jason La Canfora

‏@JasonLaCanfora

Sammy Watkins is nice and all... but the Bills trading up for him when Odell goes 8 picks later will haunt them nearly as much as EJ pick

 

La Canfora about to be attacked by a raging Bills Mafia

 

 

This is idiotic. Let's rewrite history. Bills don't move up. I think it's safe to assume Watkins goes in the first 6 picks, and let's say Tampa sticks with Evans @ 7. That leaves:

8. CLE

9. BUF

10. DET

11. TEN

12. NYG

 

He's ASSUMING this means the Bills get Beckham at 9. However, Giants GM Reese said immediately after the draft that they were in love with Beckham & had him high on their board within the top 10 (as a note he's also been asked if he had him above Watkins and he says no, not that high but we knew he'd be gone). Who's to say they don't trade with CLE and draft him #8? And then Bills get Eric Ebron like a large % of people wanted and we watch Watkins play in [Atlanta?] & ODB in New York. Great.

 

The Bills needed a #1 WR and now have a #1WR. Was there a cheaper and/or better option? Sure, but you're never going to get everything exactly right. He filled the need of #1 WR and seems to be a special player. He's equating that to EJ? There we needed a #1QB and then....stilled need a #1QB. That one is a problem, yes.

 

I feel like this only gets brought up because of the extra #1 draft pick. But really, who cares about that. It was a #19 pick. Go look at picks 19-49 and tell me which world beater we missed out on and/or who you'd rather have than Darby.

 

What a stupid lazy tweet.

[PromoTheRobot]

So a Mack highlight reel circulates on social media and this is the thread we get out of it. Bills fans are so easily swayed into hating our own choices and players...

We hate all or players because we see everything they do. Meanwhile all we see are highlights of other players so we think they ate terrific.

 

This is idiotic. Let's rewrite history. Bills don't move up. I think it's safe to assume Watkins goes in the first 6 picks, and let's say Tampa sticks with Evans @ 7. That leaves:

8. CLE

9. BUF

10. DET

11. TEN

12. NYG

 

He's ASSUMING this means the Bills get Beckham at 9. However, Giants GM Reese said immediately after the draft that they were in love with Beckham & had him high on their board within the top 10 (as a note he's also been asked if he had him above Watkins and he says no, not that high but we knew he'd be gone). Who's to say they don't trade with CLE and draft him #8? And then Bills get Eric Ebron like a large % of people wanted and we watch Watkins play in [Atlanta?] & ODB in New York. Great.

 

The Bills needed a #1 WR and now have a #1WR. Was there a cheaper and/or better option? Sure, but you're never going to get everything exactly right. He filled the need of #1 WR and seems to be a special player. He's equating that to EJ? There we needed a #1QB and then....stilled need a #1QB. That one is a problem, yes.

 

I feel like this only gets brought up because of the extra #1 draft pick. But really, who cares about that. It was a #19 pick. Go look at picks 19-49 and tell me which world beater we missed out on and/or who you'd rather have than Darby.

 

What a stupid lazy tweet.

I remember people like Shopp and Sullivan complaining the Bills never made any bold moves, always playing it safe.

[Sisyphean Bills]

You have to take in consideration who's throwing him the ball though. That's a huge part of it. Having a QB like Eli instead of Tyrod is an enormous advantage. Eli has seen every type of coverage, he knows how to go through his progressions, he makes sure that ODB is lined up in more advantageous spots on the field as opposed to what Tyrod does.

 

I think that conflates several things. OBJ's circus catches are not because of "great throws". That's clearly absurd. But those catches do show that OBJ is vastly more than a Chris Hogan type of WR.

 

No one ever said Manning isn't a veteran QB or that he doesn't understand his offense. He is an upper echelon QB, who, when he is really hot, is capable of beating anyone. Still, he's not perfect on every throw. Let's also give kudos to the coaching staff for having and keeping Eli in an offense he can play at a high level in. (And by extension, management and ownership for hiring the right people, makes the trade, and giving Manning and the coaches the time and space to develop.)

 

Nor is the Giants offense very talented this year. You got Manning and OBJ playing catch and very little else. As a team, they've struggled.

 

I agree that it's apples and oranges to compare the Bills offense to the Giants in 2015. In truth, it only makes trading up to take a WR when they don't have a QB all that much more of a head scratcher.

[87168]

Clear as day ODB is better, running routes, getting separation, consistently catching the ball, and making spectacular catches Watkins isnt....doesn't matter who the QB is to see those things. IMO Beckham is the best player in the league right now. As I said in a different thread, Sammy is more like a bigger Lee Evans, than a smaller Julio Jones. He gets some first half strikes, but after defenses adjust to his speed, he becomes largely invisible...doesn't have the route running ability to get separation, running ability to turn short routes and reverses into big gains, nor the vertical to win jump balls. Against eagles also had some crucial drops.

 

He's good and can help win games....as Lee Evans was...but to compare him to OBD and a handful of other trule elite WRs is kinda silly.

 

I don't understand how anyone who watches QB play, can sit there and make that statement. so are we going to argue that WRs who have a better and more accurate (catch-able) ball thrown his way is a better receiver? the same logic can be said if Watkins were receiving passes from one of the members of TSW as opposed to Manning. I mean, for honesty's sake...QB play plays a HUGE role in a WR's career. Can you honestly say that if Watkins had Big Ben, Cam, Dalton, or Brady throwing to him that he wouldn't have MORE receptions, MORE yards and MORE TDs? You can make an argument that his is all hypothetical, but...I think it's a safe bet. If you actually watch Sammy run his routes he typically always beats the defender, and you'll see him waving to like a madman to TT, to signal he's open.

 

It also helps when you have an OC that knows how to design and utilize his receiving talent. Roman focuses on the run game and designs plays to cater to that offensive "scheme", or lack thereof.

 

Watkins get lots of separation. ODB consistently catches the ball...? I've seen some dropped passes from him as well.

 

For a Bills fan, the grass is always greener. I didn't know there was anymore room left on the ODB bandwagon.

[Chuck Wagon]

 

This is idiotic. Let's rewrite history. Bills don't move up. I think it's safe to assume Watkins goes in the first 6 picks, and let's say Tampa sticks with Evans @ 7. That leaves:

8. CLE

9. BUF

10. DET

11. TEN

12. NYG

 

He's ASSUMING this means the Bills get Beckham at 9. However, Giants GM Reese said immediately after the draft that they were in love with Beckham & had him high on their board within the top 10 (as a note he's also been asked if he had him above Watkins and he says no, not that high but we knew he'd be gone). Who's to say they don't trade with CLE and draft him #8? And then Bills get Eric Ebron like a large % of people wanted and we watch Watkins play in [Atlanta?] & ODB in New York. Great.

 

The Bills needed a #1 WR and now have a #1WR. Was there a cheaper and/or better option? Sure, but you're never going to get everything exactly right. He filled the need of #1 WR and seems to be a special player. He's equating that to EJ? There we needed a #1QB and then....stilled need a #1QB. That one is a problem, yes.

 

I feel like this only gets brought up because of the extra #1 draft pick. But really, who cares about that. It was a #19 pick. Go look at picks 19-49 and tell me which world beater we missed out on and/or who you'd rather have than Darby.

 

What a stupid lazy tweet.

 

 

The Vikings would have had pick 8, not the Browns. The Browns said they would have taken Sammy at #4. The Vikings might have just taken Barr or may have moved down, who knows. There's a chance if we stay at #9 we just take Ebron, who Whaley was also high on. I can see your point on picks #19 - #49, it's still obviously very early, but there's no one in that range who clearly stands out as being better than Darby (who is generating some real defensive ROTY buzz). Whaley looks right on that class, it's all kind of MEH outside a couple of Winston-Mariotta-Cooper-Williams-Gurley. Amazing how many guys have gotten hurt or just haven't been that effective.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Chuck Wagon

[Sisyphean Bills]

#1 - the bills "hit" on the sammy trade. he is a stud.

 

#2- if sammy & ODB switched teams/qb's....no one would be talking about ODB.

 

#3- if Sammy is only targeted 5-7 times a game, an argument could be made that Mack would be more valuable simply because he is involved in more plays.

 

OTOH, people are talking about DeAndre Hopkins and he doesn't have a Manning throwing him any balls.

 

Circus catches are highlight reel stuff on the merits of the catch. Not the throw.

 

 

The Vikings would have had pick 8, not the Browns. The Browns said they would have taken Sammy at #4. The Vikings might have just taken Barr or may have moved down, who knows. There's a chance if we stay at #9 we just take Ebron, who Whaley was also high on. I can see your point on picks #19 - #49, it's still obviously very early, but there's no one in that range who clearly stands out as being better than Darby (who is generating some really defensive ROTY buzz). Whaley looks right on that class, it's all kind of MEH outside a couple of Winston-Mariotta-Cooper-Williams-Gurley. Amazing how many guys have gotten hurt or just haven't been that effective.

 

Somehow, this doesn't cheer me.