BuffaloBillsForever Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 Agreed According to the founder of OverTheCap, agents should be negotiating 20% over market value in this years free agency.
Deranged Rhino Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 Actually it is YOU that doesn't understand restructures. By saying there is no down side is simply not true. You are just like Deranged Rhino that thinks there are no ramifications to being "fluid" or "flexible" with the cap. It's because you don't understand how the cap works. The Bills are NOT "being fluid or flexible with the cap". The CAP ITSELF is fluid and flexible. It's fluid because it increases by differing amounts each year (this year over 12 million) and it's flexible because the league has no guaranteed contracts, thus you can be creative in how you work contracts. It makes you sound like a fool to be constantly mischaracterizing not only what I'm saying but how the NFL cap works. The simple fact you haven't understood that above point after all this time (and after having it explained to you several times) smacks of ignorant crusading. Step your game up. You're bad at this.
3rdand12 Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 That crossed my mind as well. It feels like they will keep him around but his cap hit is too big for the player. A pay cut makes sense. It probably makes sense for Leo as well. My thoughts too. at least make these guys an offer. same as KW. Leo and Kyle and Graham may just want to finish their careers out here ??
BuffaloBillsForever Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) The Bills are NOT "being fluid or flexible with the cap". The CAP ITSELF is fluid and flexible. It's fluid because it increases by differing amounts each year (this year over 12 million) and it's flexible because the league has no guaranteed contracts, thus you can be creative in how you work contracts. It makes you sound like a fool to be constantly mischaracterizing not only what I'm saying but how the NFL cap works. The simple fact you haven't understood that above point after all this time (and after having it explained to you several times) smacks of ignorant crusading. Step your game up. You're bad at this. You are still completely ignorant how being flexible works. You also are completely oblivious how the fluidity of the cap itself works with salary inflation and so forth. You mention those terms yet there is no substance in your understanding of them being applied to the realities and trade-offs teams face regarding being "fluid" and "flexible". You don't understand the cap. Plain and simple. Edited February 18, 2016 by BuffaloBillsForever
3rdand12 Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 Yep...I think Leo is a lock for a pay cut. Not sure how much they should expect, but I don't think it's crazy to ask him to drop his $4.9M cap number down to, say, $2.9M agreed
Deranged Rhino Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 You are still completely ignorant how being flexible works. You also are completely oblivious how the fluidity of the cap itself works with salary inflation and so forth. You mention those terms yet there is no substance in your understanding of them being applied to the realities and trade-offs teams face regarding being "fluid" and "flexible". You don't understand the cap. Plain and simple. And yet when I go out of my way to post a lengthy post highlighting the trade offs you asked for, you ignore it. You're wrong. And it's clear you have no desire to have a real conversation so go back to trolling. It's what you do best and we will all keep laughing at your inability to understand what it is you're complaining about.
3rdand12 Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 Yep...I also think (as we discussed) that Lawson will make more money here by taking a $1M pay cut than he will anywhere else by getting cut. Then you've got a guy like Dixon, who I really like as a personality, that can easily be let go and gain another $1M. yep Yeah. The more I am looking into the Glenn scenarios, the more I feel he won't be on the team next year. shut yur mouf !
BuffaloBillsForever Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) And yet when I go out of my way to post a lengthy post highlighting the trade offs you asked for, you ignore it. You're wrong. And it's clear you have no desire to have a real conversation so go back to trolling. It's what you do best and we will all keep laughing at your inability to understand what it is you're complaining about. Actually, I have already pointed out to you there are no explanations of trade offs in that post. Not a single post in your history do you discuss trade-offs or ramifications of turning a roster bonus into a signing bonus, or releasing players (dead money) in terms of being flexible nor things like salary inflation in terms of "fluidity". This is because you do not understand the cap. Edited February 18, 2016 by BuffaloBillsForever
Deranged Rhino Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 Actually, I have already pointed out to you there are no explanations of trade offs in that post. Not a single post in your history do you discuss trade-offs or ramifications of turning a roster bonus into a signing bonus, or releasing players (dead money) in terms of being flexible nor things like salary inflation in terms of "fluidity". This is because you do not understand the cap. Really? REALLY? So, there's not a single mention of trade offs in the below referenced post? Because if you read it, you'll see trade offs mentioned a few times. Even more so in the post THAT post was referencing. So either you're a liar, a troll, or illiterate. Which is it? (Maybe all three?) Oh I know. The real truth is you're wrong about fretting over the Bills cap situation, you're actually upset about Whaley's construction of the roster, but you're too proud to admit when you're clearly shown to be wrong. ... Uh, again, the entire third paragraph talks about it. Not to mention earlier posts today (and throughout the months) talking about cutting Mario and Leodis. I've never denied there aren't decisions to be made and (sometimes) difficult cuts to make. I'm not sure what you're hung up on now. You are speaking as if I'm saying the Bills plan is to somehow make the cap fluid and flexible. That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying the CAP is fluid and flexible -- around the league. It's fluid because it changes on a year to year basis (this year by over 12 million). It's flexible because every team (not just the Bills) can be creative in how they structure contracts in a league with no guaranteed contracts. These aren't debatable points. This is the reality of the NFL cap. That teams, including the Bills, have to make trade offs about how and where they spend their money to get under that cap number is not in dispute. No one, especially me, is arguing or has argued that you can have your cake and eat it too. Choices must be made. And as I detailed in the third paragraph, the Bills made the choice LAST year to execute this current plan. They can't spend big this year on UFA because they spent big last year (that's a trade off). They did so with an eye on Glenn, Gilmore and Bradhams expiring contracts in 16/17. Whaley's plan was to spend this year's money on retaining their drafted talent rather than go on a UFA shopping spree -- that's not a talking point, that's an example of a trade off. Again, if you actually took the time to understand what I'm saying you'd see that your issue isn't with the cap situation or cap management for the Bills, but with Whaley's plan itself. That's a perfectly valid objection to have mind you, but arguing the Bills are in cap hell frankly is not. It's just incorrect, as is the charge that I don't understand the consequences of the cap. Again, this is not correct. I do understand, and as you continue to demonstrate I understand more than you do about how the cap actually works in the NFL. The truth is you disagree with how Whaley built the roster. That is 100% an acceptable / understandable position to take even if I disagree with it. But your screaming to the heavens that the cap is going to crush this team is just not a defensible position unless you do not understand the cap. That's not me taking a homer attitude, it's reality. Whaley's plan, as he's stated several times by now, was to reload the offense last year through UFA and then spend this year's cap dollars on securing their own homegrown talent. The cap situation allows Whaley to do this, it does not allow them to go out on another big spending spree -- but that was never the plan nor should it be. The idea is to keep their own so they don't have to keep spending big on UFAs to plug holes. Glenn, Gilmore, and to a lesser degree RI (because he's not homegrown) are key pieces to retain for the Bills future -- and there is plenty of ways to fit those deals under the cap that don't involve gutting the roster. I get if you disagree with the plan -- again, that is a perfectly valid opinion to hold as there's plenty of evidence to support your position. But lamenting about the cap just speaks to your agenda more than it does your understanding of the cap. Which, based on his value to the team and Roman's scheme, is more than worth it. This team hasn't had a TE like Clay since PM.
John from Riverside Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 You are still completely ignorant how being flexible works. You also are completely oblivious how the fluidity of the cap itself works with salary inflation and so forth. You mention those terms yet there is no substance in your understanding of them being applied to the realities and trade-offs teams face regarding being "fluid" and "flexible". You don't understand the cap. Plain and simple. BBF I would seriously suggest you go back and read what you just wrote......there is absolutely no substance to it whatsoever.....
BuffaloBillsForever Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 BBF I would seriously suggest you go back and read what you just wrote......there is absolutely no substance to it whatsoever..... It's because you do not understand the cap either.
Deranged Rhino Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 It's because you do not understand the cap either. So you ARE trolling. Got it.
BuffaloBillsForever Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 Really? REALLY? So, there's not a single mention of trade offs in the below referenced post? Because if you read it, you'll see trade offs mentioned a few times. Even more so in the post THAT post was referencing. So either you're a liar, a troll, or illiterate. Which is it? (Maybe all three?) Oh I know. The real truth is you're wrong about fretting over the Bills cap situation, you're actually upset about Whaley's construction of the roster, but you're too proud to admit when you're clearly shown to be wrong. Again for the 3rd time you are not discussing the trade-offs of being flexible (restructuring, cutting players, dead money, present/future implications etc) nor discussing any of the implications with the fluidity of the cap (things like salary inflation). What your posts is are basic observations (very obvious ones) regarding the current cap situation. The observations also read like a Doug Whaley news article from a couple weeks back discussing the same matter.
Deranged Rhino Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) Again for the 3rd time you are not discussing the trade-offs of being flexible (restructuring, cutting players, dead money, present/future implications etc) nor discussing any of the implications with the fluidity of the cap (things like salary inflation). What your posts is are basic observations (very obvious ones) regarding the current cap situation. The observations also read like a Doug Whaley news article from a couple weeks back discussing the same matter. Wrong. Again. "Trade offs of being flexible" -- statements like this just show you're out of your depth. The cap is flexible REGARDLESS of what the Bills do or don't do. The fact you keep missing this point shows you don't know what you're talking about. The cap is flexible because contracts and their numbers can always be reworked in a league with no guaranteed contracts. There are costs to restructuring deals, I've never ever denied this because ITS SO OBVIOUS ONLY A FOOL WOULD ARGUE OTHERWISE. If you truly understood what I wrote, rather than trolling like you are and making a complete fool of yourself, you'd realize I'm talking about the implications and trade offs of Whaley's plan in regards to the Bills' available cap space. His plan, knowing cap space is limited and there are costs to restructuring and spending, was to spend big LAST year on bringing in outside talent (knowing he can't do it two years in a row) and spending this year's cap dollars on keeping our own players. I'll say it slow so you understand: He can't do both, knows he can't do both, and chose his path accordingly. This was a trade off because the cap is limited. But saying the cap is limited is not the same as saying the team is in cap hell. The team is not in cap hell. Cap hell implies they have to make moves they do not wish to make to get under the cap. The Bills have lots of flexibility, lots of ways to free up the room they need to resign their own players per their plan. There will be ramifications to these decisions, but because every NFL team knows how to work the cap, they simply factor these into their future contract negotiations in order to keep the cap manageable. They DO NOT have the room to go out and make big splashy signings in UFA this year because they did so last year. Again, a pretty obvious trade off is it not? See you're real problem is not with the cap situation. You want it to be the cap situation because you've spent so long crying to everyone here about Shady's deal and how the cap will crush this team -- too long to go back and admit you only have a casual understanding of how things work. The real problem you have is HOW Whaley has constructed the roster. That's a fair and valid point to make, but it has nothing to do with the Bills being in cap hell... Because they aren't in cap hell. Only someone who is trolling or someone who REALLY doesn't want to admit their wrong, would read my numerous posts and statements as anything other than a discussion of the trade offs this team has made in regard to how to spend their cap money. So keep on being a causal fool. You're doing a bang up job of it. Edited February 18, 2016 by Deranged Rhino
BuffaloBillsForever Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) Wrong. Again. "Trade offs of being flexible" -- statements like this just show you're out of your depth. The cap is flexible REGARDLESS of what the Bills do or don't do. The fact you keep missing this point shows you don't know what you're talking about. The cap is flexible because contracts and their numbers can always be reworked in a league with no guaranteed contracts. There are costs to restructuring deals, I've never ever denied this because ITS SO OBVIOUS ONLY A FOOL WOULD ARGUE OTHERWISE. If you truly understood what I wrote, rather than trolling like you are and making a complete fool of yourself, you'd realize I'm talking about the implications and trade offs of Whaley's plan in regards to the Bills' available cap space. His plan, knowing cap space is limited and there are costs to restructuring and spending, was to spend big LAST year on bringing in outside talent (knowing he can't do it two years in a row) and spending this year's cap dollars on keeping our own players. I'll say it slow so you understand: He can't do both, knows he can't do both, and chose his path accordingly. This was a trade off because the cap is limited. But saying the cap is limited is not the same as saying the team is in cap hell. The team is not in cap hell. Cap hell implies they have to make moves they do not wish to make to get under the cap. The Bills have lots of flexibility, lots of ways to free up the room they need to resign their own players per their plan. There will be ramifications to these decisions, but because every NFL team knows how to work the cap, they simply factor these into their future contract negotiations in order to keep the cap manageable. They DO NOT have the room to go out and make big splashy signings in UFA this year because they did so last year. Again, a pretty obvious trade off is it not? See you're real problem is not with the cap situation. You want it to be the cap situation because you've spent so long crying to everyone here about Shady's deal and how the cap will crush this team -- too long to go back and admit you only have a casual understanding of how things work. The real problem you have is HOW Whaley has constructed the roster. That's a fair and valid point to make, but it has nothing to do with the Bills being in cap hell... Because they aren't in cap hell. Only someone who is trolling or someone who REALLY doesn't want to admit their wrong, would read my numerous posts and statements as anything other than a discussion of the trade offs this team has made in regard to how to spend their cap money. So keep on being a causal fool. You're doing a bang up job of it. The facts are the Bills are in cap hell for 2016. It's the casuals who do not understand the fine details of the cap that don't get this. The people that get this are individuals that run the site OverTheCap. They will be out of cap hell next year if they play their cards right but if they do things like moving a complete roster bonus into a signing bonus for players like Clay they will end up in cap purgatory and potential cap hell once again in the coming years. Obviously you don't understand the "flexibility" of restructuring but that's ok. You have no understanding of the realities of the cap. You think the cap is like playing the offseason in a Madden video game. Edited February 18, 2016 by BuffaloBillsForever
thebandit27 Posted February 18, 2016 Author Posted February 18, 2016 The facts are the Bills are in cap hell for 2016. It's the casuals who do not understand the fine details of the cap that don't get this. The people that get this are individuals that run the site OverTheCap. They will be out of cap hell next year if they play their cards right but if they do things like moving complete roster bonus into a signing bonus for players like Clay they will end up in cap purgatory and potential cap hell once again in the coming years. You have no understanding of the realities of the cap. You think the cap is like playing a Madden video game. Sorry, but to see you use the term "cap hell" about the Bills tells me that you don't really have a frame of reference. They may--and I stress the word may--have to cut a starter or two. That's not even close to cap hell. "Cap hell" is closer to the Saints last offseason, who had to trade their best offensive weapon, their starting LG, and their #2 WR just to get under the cap. They also had to cut their leading tackler (Curtis Lofton) and one of their most productive backfield players (P. Thomas). We're over here talking about cutting Mario Williams so that we can sign our two best offensive linemen.
BuffaloBillsForever Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) Sorry, but to see you use the term "cap hell" about the Bills tells me that you don't really have a frame of reference. They may--and I stress the word may--have to cut a starter or two. That's not even close to cap hell. "Cap hell" is closer to the Saints last offseason, who had to trade their best offensive weapon, their starting LG, and their #2 WR just to get under the cap. They also had to cut their leading tackler (Curtis Lofton) and one of their most productive backfield players (P. Thomas). We're over here talking about cutting Mario Williams so that we can sign our two best offensive linemen. None of us know how that scenario is going to play out just yet. I don't think it is a given that is enough to get it done. Edited February 18, 2016 by BuffaloBillsForever
Deranged Rhino Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 The facts are the Bills are in cap hell for 2016. It's the casuals who do not understand the fine details of the cap that don't get this. The people that get this are individuals that run the site OverTheCap. They will be out of cap hell next year if they play their cards right but if they do things like moving a complete roster bonus into a signing bonus for players like Clay they will end up in cap purgatory and potential cap hell once again in the coming years. Obviously you don't understand the "flexibility" of restructuring but that's ok. You have no understanding of the realities of the cap. You think the cap is like playing the offseason in a Madden video game. First you call me out saying that I've never once talked about the trade offs or realities of the cap. I showed this to be untrue and you are either a liar, trolling, or hopelessly ignorant. You neither apologized or admitted you were wrong on this point which makes you look like a guy more interested in being right than dealing with facts. Now you're back to saying the Bills are in cap hell when by all measurables they are not. Once again you're either lying, trolling or ignorant. We know you are too proud to admit you've been mistaken, so why should we take you at your word now when you've been shown to be a liar, a troll, or worse? The facts don't back you up, nor does reality. You refuse to have an honest or adult conversation about this topic because you know deep down you're wrong. Keep calling fans "casual" as if that's a put down, it's working well for you.
BuffaloBillsForever Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) First you call me out saying that I've never once talked about the trade offs or realities of the cap. I showed this to be untrue and you are either a liar, trolling, or hopelessly ignorant. You neither apologized or admitted you were wrong on this point which makes you look like a guy more interested in being right than dealing with facts. Now you're back to saying the Bills are in cap hell when by all measurables they are not. Once again you're either lying, trolling or ignorant. We know you are too proud to admit you've been mistaken, so why should we take you at your word now when you've been shown to be a liar, a troll, or worse? The facts don't back you up, nor does reality. You refuse to have an honest or adult conversation about this topic because you know deep down you're wrong. Keep calling fans "casual" as if that's a put down, it's working well for you. You still haven't showed me anything of substance that you understand the flexibility of cap management - restructuring, releasing players (dead money involved) or looking at how cap fluidity will accelerate players salaries. This is because you do not understand any of this or you think it didn't exist. You are also quoting posts of yours that you wrote AFTER I called you out that you have no understanding of the finer details of the salary cap. It proves my point further. You have not shown me any measurables or anything of substance that they ARE NOT in cap hell in 2016. You just quote the words fluid and flexible but you have no idea of what they actually mean. Edited February 18, 2016 by BuffaloBillsForever
Deranged Rhino Posted February 18, 2016 Posted February 18, 2016 You still haven't showed me anything of substance that you understand the flexibility of cap management - restructuring, releasing players or looking at how cap fluidity will accelerate players salaries. This is because you do not understand any of this or you think it didn't exist. So you're doubling down on being a liar, a troll, or completely ignorant. Got it. Truth is I've talked about all of those things, many times, several times with you. You continue to ignore this because your agenda is to troll, lie, and are desperate to be right above all else. But your wrong. And a liar. And now everyone who bothers to read this thread knows it. I don't know about everyone else, but I'll take being a casual fan who understands what it is they're talking about over being someone who is a liar, a troll, and completely and entirely wrong.
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