NoSaint Posted December 15, 2015 Posted December 15, 2015 What changed is, if a D-lineman 'jumped' that didn't give every offense lineman licenses to also jump and then point his finger at the DL to get a penalty. Would you prefer the ref just flag it without theatrics? Is that the issue?
bowery4 Posted December 15, 2015 Posted December 15, 2015 I didn't even realize they changed this rule until a couple of weeks ago, BS rule.
BobbyC81 Posted December 15, 2015 Posted December 15, 2015 I hate this penalty. I liked it the old way. If a guy jumped and got back with out making contact, there was no penalty. I remember for a short time, they were calling a penalty on the OL if he obviously jumped after a go DL got into the neutral zone in an attempt to draw a penalty on the defense. I wish it would go back to the old way. The OL has to stay set regardless of what the defense does. I've never understood most of these pre-snap rules. Why do the linemen have to be motionless in their 3 pt stance? What's the purpose? Why do some of the receivers have to be back a step from the line? What's this rule for? It's just more rules for players, coaches and refs to remember. And another thing, since all NFL rosters are 53 players, why do they have to pick 47 to be active? Why can't they all be active? With the number of injuries, especially with the concussion protocol, I'm surprised teams haven't been caught with too few active players at a position. Roger Goodell, Keep It Simple Stupid!
KD in CA Posted December 15, 2015 Posted December 15, 2015 Would you prefer the ref just flag it without theatrics? Is that the issue? No, the issue is there shouldn't be a penalty at all unless a defender is in the neutral zone at the snap or otherwise makes pre-snap contact with an offensive player. I didn't realize you weren't old enough to watch football before that ruled changed.
JDHILL Posted December 15, 2015 Posted December 15, 2015 Don't cross the neutral zone. Pretty simple. However, desperate times call for desperate measures. I get that. actually no..The QB can use voice inflection and a hard count to try and draw the defense offsides...This is a form of deception. The defense is not allowed to move and try to deceive the offense into a false start. Another rule that benefits offense entirely. If you are not going to allow the defense to get back and reset then you simply shouldn't allow for hard counts. I hope this makes sense.
NoSaint Posted December 15, 2015 Posted December 15, 2015 No, the issue is there shouldn't be a penalty at all unless a defender is in the neutral zone at the snap or otherwise makes pre-snap contact with an offensive player. I didn't realize you weren't old enough to watch football before that ruled changed. Ignoring your charm there - it is interesting to me that defenders jumping at a false start is accepted but OL jumping at a neutral zone infraction is so taboo here. You specifically referenced the OL jumping and pointing so I asked if the theatrics had something to do with it. Simple follow up.
Beerball Posted December 15, 2015 Posted December 15, 2015 Ignoring your charm there - it is interesting to me that defenders jumping at a false start is accepted but OL jumping at a neutral zone infraction is so taboo here. You specifically referenced the OL jumping and pointing so I asked if the theatrics had something to do with it. Simple follow up. Offensive linemen (not on the Bills) now take advantage of the rule. They weren't drawn to move by a defensive player, they were drawn to move by 5 free yards.
KD in CA Posted December 15, 2015 Posted December 15, 2015 Ignoring your charm there - it is interesting to me that defenders jumping at a false start is accepted but OL jumping at a neutral zone infraction is so taboo here. You specifically referenced the OL jumping and pointing so I asked if the theatrics had something to do with it. Simple follow up. There's plenty of advantage for the offense pre-snap. Primarily, they know the snap count, the defense doesn't. The essence of the rule change was the idea that a DL jumping causes the OL to flinch, which is complete bullsh--. Such bullsh-- is highlighted most clearly when an OL jumps out of his stance after a DL takes a half step over the LOS and then jumps back. That wasn't done before the rule change because back then it would have been a penalty on the offense, not the defense. I'm in favor of anything that allows them to play football and not stop the game yet again for some stupid and needless reason.
3rdand12 Posted December 15, 2015 Posted December 15, 2015 I've never understood most of these pre-snap rules. Why do the linemen have to be motionless in their 3 pt stance? What's the purpose? Why do some of the receivers have to be back a step from the line? What's this rule for? It's just more rules for players, coaches and refs to remember. And another thing, since all NFL rosters are 53 players, why do they have to pick 47 to be active? Why can't they all be active? With the number of injuries, especially with the concussion protocol, I'm surprised teams haven't been caught with too few active players at a position. Roger Goodell, Keep It Simple Stupid! one day at a time Roger
The Frankish Reich Posted December 15, 2015 Posted December 15, 2015 Here's the rule: Article 4: Neutral Zone Infraction: It is a Neutral Zone Infraction when: (a) a defender moves beyond the neutral zone prior to the snap and is parallel to or beyond an offensive lineman, with an unabated path to the quarterback or kicker, even though no contact is made by a blocker; officials are to blow their whistles immediately; or (b) a defender enters the neutral zone prior to the snap, causing the offensive player(s) in close proximity (including a quarterback who is under center) to react (move) immediately to protect himself (themselves) against impending contact; officials are to blow their whistles immediately. If there is no immediate reaction by the offensive player(s) in close proximity, and the defensive player returns to a legal position prior to the snap without contacting an opponent, there is no foul. A flexed or split receiver is considered to be in close proximity if he is lined up on the side of the ball on which the violation occurs; other offensive players are considered to be in close proximity if they are within twoand-one-half positions of the defender who enters the neutral zone. If the defender is directly over the center, a quarterback under center, the center, and the guards and tackles on both sides of the center are considered to be within close proximity; if the defender is in a gap, the two offensive players on either side of the gap are considered to be within close proximity (including a quarterback under center, if applicable) As far as I can tell, what's happened is this: coaches like Chip Kelly coach their offensive lineman "within two and one half positions" of the defender who jumps to fake an "immediate reaction" that is "against impending contact." It's like flopping in the NBA or in soccer. This is the kind of penalty call that kills the flow of the game. For decades a defender who jumped (and didn't make contact) had a chance to get back behind the line of scrimmage before the ball was snapped. Smart QBs could sometimes call for the snap before the defender got back -- the result was a free play and a guaranteed 5 yard penalty, but it didn't require faking anything. The remedy: just don't call the neutral zone infraction. Call the offensive lineman for a false start instead unless the O lineman's action was immediate (not the delayed "acting" reactions we're seeing) and was reasonably caused to protect himself "against impending contact."
TUBSTER Posted December 15, 2015 Posted December 15, 2015 Is that because WE do it like 10 times a game? Add in our offensive false starts and make it 20
strive_for_five_guy Posted December 15, 2015 Posted December 15, 2015 Here's the rule: As far as I can tell, what's happened is this: coaches like Chip Kelly coach their offensive lineman "within two and one half positions" of the defender who jumps to fake an "immediate reaction" that is "against impending contact." It's like flopping in the NBA or in soccer. This is the kind of penalty call that kills the flow of the game. For decades a defender who jumped (and didn't make contact) had a chance to get back behind the line of scrimmage before the ball was snapped. Smart QBs could sometimes call for the snap before the defender got back -- the result was a free play and a guaranteed 5 yard penalty, but it didn't require faking anything. The remedy: just don't call the neutral zone infraction. Call the offensive lineman for a false start instead unless the O lineman's action was immediate (not the delayed "acting" reactions we're seeing) and was reasonably caused to protect himself "against impending contact." Or just don't go in the neutral zone prior to the snap
Ed_Formerly_of_Roch Posted December 15, 2015 Posted December 15, 2015 (edited) So did the rule change or did a team finally read the rule book and figure out that if we move they will flag the D To me seems like smart coaching. I've always wondered why teams didn't do this all the time. so when the D line jumps over the line to try and get an advantage in the pass rush, then goes back, you feel it's up to the offensive lineman to do everything in his power to make sure he doesn't move. If teams get smart, we may see alot more of this, but will stop quickly once the defense starts getting penalized often enough, then they will stop tying to jump the snap. I see the rule is "quoted". Let's see the "old rule" since everyone is saying it's changed. Seems to me nothing has changed, just a team taking advantage of it and likely more to come. What changed is, if a D-lineman 'jumped' that didn't give every offense lineman licenses to also jump and then point his finger at the DL to get a penalty. Edited December 15, 2015 by Ed_Formerly_of_Roch
Beerball Posted December 15, 2015 Posted December 15, 2015 So did the rule change or did a team finally read the rule book and figure out that if we move they will flag the D To me seems like smart coaching. I've always wondered why teams didn't do this all the time. so when the D line jumps over the line to try and get an advantage in the pass rush, then goes back, you feel it's up to the offensive lineman to do everything in his power to make sure he doesn't move. If teams get smart, we may see alot more of this, but will stop quickly once the defense starts getting penalized often enough, then they will stop tying to jump the snap. the rule changed several years back. Used to be if the defensive player got back no harm, no foul.
Ed_Formerly_of_Roch Posted December 15, 2015 Posted December 15, 2015 Yes but according to the rule then and now as soon as the O lineman moves that is considered "harm" so then a foul is called. Conversely if he gets back both then and now and no one moves no foul. Still no one has shown what has changed with respect to the rule. Sounds like what has been stated here is a team figured how to use the rule to their advantage and get five free yards. the rule changed several years back. Used to be if the defensive player got back no harm, no foul.
Dragonborn10 Posted December 15, 2015 Author Posted December 15, 2015 So did the rule change or did a team finally read the rule book and figure out that if we move they will flag the D To me seems like smart coaching. I've always wondered why teams didn't do this all the time. so when the D line jumps over the line to try and get an advantage in the pass rush, then goes back, you feel it's up to the offensive lineman to do everything in his power to make sure he doesn't move. If teams get smart, we may see alot more of this, but will stop quickly once the defense starts getting penalized often enough, then they will stop tying to jump the snap. I see the rule is "quoted". Let's see the "old rule" since everyone is saying it's changed. Seems to me nothing has changed, just a team taking advantage of it and likely more to come. Yes the rule changed years ago. Before if a defender jumped into the neutral zone but did not make contact and the O-lineman moved it was a false start penalty. The intent was not to punish a LT who can't hear the snap count on the road and is tricked by the movement of the DE. Now it is being abused by the O-lineman. And for the 5th grade do-over comment, there are off setting penalties all the time in the NFL that are do-overs. This would be the same thing. The defender jumped into the neutral zone and the o-lineman moved before the snap not giving the defender a chance to get back. Essentially it is a penalty on both. What would you rather see a defender get back and a normal football play or more flags and more referee huddles???
CodeMonkey Posted December 15, 2015 Posted December 15, 2015 Yes the rule changed years ago. Before if a defender jumped into the neutral zone but did not make contact and the O-lineman moved it was a false start penalty. The intent was not to punish a LT who can't hear the snap count on the road and is tricked by the movement of the DE. Now it is being abused by the O-lineman. And for the 5th grade do-over comment, there are off setting penalties all the time in the NFL that are do-overs. This would be the same thing. The defender jumped into the neutral zone and the o-lineman moved before the snap not giving the defender a chance to get back. Essentially it is a penalty on both. What would you rather see a defender get back and a normal football play or more flags and more referee huddles??? I want to get rid of the dumb ass false start penalty altogether. Think of how many flags, conferences that would get rid of. Who !@#$ing cares if a offensive linemans arm twitches for gods sake. Ridiculous penalty in my opinion.
K-9 Posted December 15, 2015 Posted December 15, 2015 So did the rule change or did a team finally read the rule book and figure out that if we move they will flag the D To me seems like smart coaching. I've always wondered why teams didn't do this all the time. so when the D line jumps over the line to try and get an advantage in the pass rush, then goes back, you feel it's up to the offensive lineman to do everything in his power to make sure he doesn't move. If teams get smart, we may see alot more of this, but will stop quickly once the defense starts getting penalized often enough, then they will stop tying to jump the snap. I see the rule is "quoted". Let's see the "old rule" since everyone is saying it's changed. Seems to me nothing has changed, just a team taking advantage of it and likely more to come. Trust me, the rule was changed in time for the 1998 season, which may explain why some here just don't remember how it used to be. The new rule stipulated that defensive players were no longer allowed to flinch or enter the neutral zone in order to draw a procedure penalty by the offense. Some referred to it as the "Bruce Smith Rule" as he was notorious for flinching his arms or legs in order to get an already nervous OLman to move after he was set. GO BILLS!!!
thebandit27 Posted December 15, 2015 Posted December 15, 2015 Trust me, the rule was changed in time for the 1998 season, which may explain why some here just don't remember how it used to be. The new rule stipulated that defensive players were no longer allowed to flinch or enter the neutral zone in order to draw a procedure penalty by the offense. Some referred to it as the "Bruce Smith Rule" as he was notorious for flinching his arms or legs in order to get an already nervous OLman to move after he was set. GO BILLS!!! I heard a few NFL folks from that era refer to it as the "Neil Smith rule"
Recommended Posts