Trump Alone at the Top

[birdog1960]

 

I would say more like 60 percent. But at least we both agree about your party, so you see...there can be middle ground across party lines.

there isn't snowballs chance in hell of finding middle ground with folks like you comprising the republican party. it's almost to the point to where the historical image of the party will need to be reborn under another name. the inmates are running the asylum.

[Tiberius]

Thank you for making my point for me.

 

The Irish, after having the boot taken off of their throats, made their way into the Oval Office in roughly 60-65 years. Black Americans did the same.

 

The key difference being that the Irish no longer languish on the lower rungs as a demographic. They made their strides with no programs designed to aid them as a group, and no affirmative action.

 

The truth is that what holds black Americans back, as a demographic, is the perverse incentives created by the programs supposedly in place to help them. The programs disincentivize the nuclear family, marginalize the importance of black men, discourage self reliance, discourage work ethic, discourage pooling of extended family resources, and ultimately replace upward mobility with the soft slavery of intergenerational dependence as a way of life.

I did not make your point at all. The economy is totally different now (or in the 60's) and the low skilled factory jobs don't exist anymore. Your time frame is way off, also. Blacks have had, what, 40 years since the civil right movement? The Irish came here in huge numbers in the 1840's and even before. And they pushed the blacks out of many of the jobs in northern cities. So that's well over 100 years to the first president.

 

And the Irish did have "programs" to help them. They ran the big government political machines in the cities, that was absolutely an affirmitive action program. Who do you think got the government jobs, contracts and appointments from the machines?

 

And how bad was the racism? The war effort in Philadelphia was almost brought to a halt because the city was going to give just a few blacks a chance at jobs! It took till 1967 until the supreme court said states could not deny a black and a white to marry.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_transit_strike_of_1944

 

Can't escape history

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

there isn't snowballs chance in hell of finding middle ground with folks like you comprising the republican party. it's almost to the point to where the historical image of the party will need to be reborn under another name. the inmates are running the asylum.

 

And you think there is a chance with Democrats? People who live in glass houses.

[Tiberius]

 

 

The truth is that what holds black Americans back, as a demographic, is the perverse incentives created by the programs supposedly in place to help them. The programs disincentivize the nuclear family, marginalize the importance of black men, discourage self reliance, discourage work ethic, discourage pooling of extended family resources, and ultimately replace upward mobility with the soft slavery of intergenerational dependence as a way of life.

And this makes my point for me. When whites were unemployed during the depression, the government created jobs. You could never get an inner city jobs bill through congress on anything like the scale of a new deal program today. Wouldn't you think creating jobs would just be better social policy than welfare? I would

[Nanker]

Liberalism at work: 100 million guns bought in the US since B O became President.

 

He sure knows how to work some magic. Getting it done!

[birdog1960]

 

And you think there is a chance with Democrats? People who live in glass houses.

most of the positions I hold have long been tenets of the democrat party even at times when compromise with republicans was common and expected. while the dem party has certainly evolved the repub party has become unrecognizable.

[keepthefaith]

what it should tell you is that a large percentage (40-45%) of the party are mindless idiots. the party and unfortunately, also the country are weaker for them.

I wouldn't call it mindless. If I have to choose between the current policy of taking in 10's of thousands of refugees and other immigrants from the middle east with little or no info on these people or Trump's position of not letting any in until our elected leaders figure out what the hell is going on (in his words) then I'll take Trump's position over Obama's. Neither would be my absolute approach, but staying the course that Obama has presented is a poor choice. Our first priority has to be for the citizens here.

[GG]

most of the positions I hold have long been tenets of the democrat party even at times when compromise with republicans was common and expected. while the dem party has certainly evolved the repub party has become unrecognizable.

 

That is utter horsecrap.

 

Find me a single Democrat in a leadership position who would hold JFK's or Moynihan's jockstrap?

 

Why do you think that an avowed socialist whose platform is to knock out >50% of the world's largest GDP is gaining 30% of your vote? There's far more in common with the Communist & Socialist parties of yore than it is to the Dems of yore.

 

Yeah, so keep thinking that Trump is the only danger facing American values.

[birdog1960]

 

That is utter horsecrap.

 

Find me a single Democrat in a leadership position who would hold JFK's or Moynihan's jockstrap?

 

Why do you think that an avowed socialist whose platform is to knock out >50% of the world's largest GDP is gaining 30% of your vote? There's far more in common with the Communist & Socialist parties of yore than it is to the Dems of yore.

 

Yeah, so keep thinking that Trump is the only danger facing American values.

medicare, Medicaid and social security are all socialistic programs and all long championed by mainstream dems including the two you mentioned.

[Tiberius]

The New Deal's alphabet agency creation wasn't a congressional initiative. It was largely done by fiat through executive order, and most were ruled unconstitutional and later abolished over the years.

 

However, even while in place, the policies and agencies created actually exacerbated the Great Depression.

 

So, no. The jobs program didn't help the underclass, which continued to suffer until World War II, when the economy changed to a war economy, and shipped the able bodied, poor or otherwise, off to the European theater. With the war decimating all other first world manufacturing bases in the world, the US began to satisfy the global demand to goods, and finally surged forward.

 

As I said, the thing that currently does the most harm to economic mobility of black Americans are the liberal policy agendas that were put in place to help them, but instead permanently marginalize them. But hey, at least it keeps them voting Democrat.

Wow, how can anyone be so wrong?

No, the New Deal was mostly passed by Congress

Yes, Congress did delegate some powers to the executive that were ruled unconstitutional--the NRA--but others that were upheld, as in foreign policy

 

That's your biased opinion that the New Deal made the Depression longer. Evidence suggests that it just was not big enough. WW2 spending--government, deficit spending, ended the Depression. And you are wrong that it was because surplus labor was shipped abroad. Women and blacks had to come in and fill the need because they still needed labor. Both lost their jobs after the war.

 

Your political argument against welfare is, well, just a political argument

[TakeYouToTasker]

And this makes my point for me. When whites were unemployed during the depression, the government created jobs. You could never get an inner city jobs bill through congress on anything like the scale of a new deal program today. Wouldn't you think creating jobs would just be better social policy than welfare? I would

The New Deal's alphabet agency creation wasn't a congressional initiative. It was largely done by fiat through executive order, and most were ruled unconstitutional and later abolished over the years.

However, even while in place, the policies and agencies created actually exacerbated the Great Depression.

 

So, no. The jobs program didn't help the underclass, which continued to suffer until World War II, when the economy changed to a war economy, and shipped the able bodied, poor or otherwise, off to the European theater. With the war decimating all other first world manufacturing bases in the world, the US began to satisfy the global demand to goods, and finally surged forward.

As I said, the thing that currently does the most harm to economic mobility of black Americans are the liberal policy agendas that were put in place to help them, but instead permanently marginalize them. But hey, at least it keeps them voting Democrat.

 

 

I did not make your point at all. The economy is totally different now (or in the 60's) and the low skilled factory jobs don't exist anymore. Your time frame is way off, also. Blacks have had, what, 40 years since the civil right movement? The Irish came here in huge numbers in the 1840's and even before. And they pushed the blacks out of many of the jobs in northern cities. So that's well over 100 years to the first president.

 

 

 

The foot was taken off the throat of the Irish at the end of the 19th century, roughly 60 years prior to the election of Kennedy.

 

And while the economy has changed, so has education. We have schools that prepare kids for the jobs of today and tomorrow. What we don't have is a black American culture that values the availability of education. That starts in the home, and the home has been slowly destroyed by the liberal government programs I've been talking about.

 

 

And the Irish did have "programs" to help them. They ran the big government political machines in the cities, that was absolutely an affirmitive action program. Who do you think got the government jobs, contracts and appointments from the machines?

This is the largest bit of horseshit I've ever read. You are nearly completely ignorant of the history of the Irish in America. I can't believe you are equating a few hundred jobs as police and firemen in NYC with the massive government structures in place today doling out billions of dollars to millions of people.

 

 

And how bad was the racism? The war effort in Philadelphia was almost brought to a halt because the city was going to give just a few blacks a chance at jobs! It took till 1967 until the supreme court said states could not deny a black and a white to marry.

Very similar to what the Irish faced.

 

 

Can't escape history

Which is why you should stop trying to.

 

[Chef Jim]

 

Still, whites had access to better jobs than blacks and were able to build up capital more easily than blacks. Blacks, by and large, were simply excluded from decent paying jobs.

 

I mean, why do you think they were so poor?

 

My point about my dad was that blacks were not the only ones that faced discrimination issues years ago. And sure they were excluded during the 30's and 40's from decent jobs and yes that is why they were so poor.

 

My question back to you is why, as a demographic, are they still lagging? What's their excuse now?

[GG]

medicare, Medicaid and social security are all socialistic programs and all long championed by mainstream dems including the two you mentioned.

 

Along with this, which would surely put him in your racist camp.

 

Regarding Social Security, I'm sure he's in line with the current rank and file socialists.

 

Something must change, Moynihan is convinced. The "veto groups," as he calls them, cannot prevail. Young people, especially, have lost faith. They wonder why they can't take care of their own retirements with stock and bond investments, rather than trusting a system that either is headed either for bankruptcy or will provide paltry or even negative returns on their contributions.

 

 

Medicare, medicaid?

 

Senator Moynihan was also skeptical of the Administration's ability to bring Medicare's double-digit spending increases down to zero by the end of the decade. "To say you're going to reverse that rate down to zero growth" by the year 2000 "is to have lost touch with reality," he said.

 

[drinkTHEkoolaid]

there isn't snowballs chance in hell of finding middle ground with folks like you comprising the republican party. it's almost to the point to where the historical image of the party will need to be reborn under another name. the inmates are running the asylum.

Something about the democrats are driving and the republicans can come along for the ride in the back seat? Sound familiar?

 

Everything you said above can be said in spades about the progressives/democrats.

[birdog1960]

 

Along with this, which would surely put him in your racist camp.

 

Regarding Social Security, I'm sure he's in line with the current rank and file socialists.

 

 

Medicare, medicaid?

 

these weren't radical proposed social security changes. in fact, changing the retirement age has already been implemented. i'd have supported any of these changes.

 

I must be missing something in the medicare link. I see only that he doesn't believe spending increases were likely to go to zero. says nothing about fundamentally changing or removing this entitlement.

 

neither of these positions would put him in direct conflict with sanders. sanders is clearly more liberal but not very far removed in ideology. they are quantum leaps closer than Rockefeller and trump, for example.

[Tiberius]

The New Deal's alphabet agency creation wasn't a congressional initiative. It was largely done by fiat through executive order, and most were ruled unconstitutional and later abolished over the years.

However, even while in place, the policies and agencies created actually exacerbated the Great Depression.

 

So, no. The jobs program didn't help the underclass, which continued to suffer until World War II, when the economy changed to a war economy, and shipped the able bodied, poor or otherwise, off to the European theater. With the war decimating all other first world manufacturing bases in the world, the US began to satisfy the global demand to goods, and finally surged forward.

As I said, the thing that currently does the most harm to economic mobility of black Americans are the liberal policy agendas that were put in place to help them, but instead permanently marginalize them. But hey, at least it keeps them voting Democrat.

 

 

Here, New Deal legislation:

https://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-by-era/new-deal/resources/new-deal-legislation

So you have been proved wrong there

 

And now you are arguing that giving jobs to the unemployed didn't help the unemployed? Whatever.

 

And in your world if welfare ended blacks would suddenly see increased job oportunities? Lame. Can you explain how that would happen?

 

My point is the racist atmosphere killed job prospects and so blacks were hurt--and are still hurt--by lack of accumulation of wealth and the social affects of prolonged membership in a hated minority. The Irish had way more opportunities than blacks had in the past. Were Irish ever denied the right to vote in this country?

[Tiberius]

The foot was taken off the throat of the Irish at the end of the 19th century, roughly 60 years prior to the election of Kennedy.

 

And while the economy has changed, so has education. We have schools that prepare kids for the jobs of today and tomorrow. What we don't have is a black American culture that values the availability of education. That starts in the home, and the home has been slowly destroyed by the liberal government programs I've been talking about.

 

You are wrong. http://www.history.com/topics/tammany-hallThe Irish had been part of government back when the blacks were still slaves.

The Irish were getting political jobs--no, not just police, teachers and firefighters--but all the incredibly large number of construction jobs--hello, Erie Canal? The civil rights movement finally took place just as cities had stopped their incredible growth. Which meant less urban jobs period.

 

The high lighted section I can actually agree to somewhat, but I have to ask, where the heck did that culture come from? Are they behaving like an oppressed minority? I'd say so. But, you have to admit, they came into this economy with basically nothing and many, many whites use their parents wealth to get ahead, whether its a car at 18, a stable family because dad had a job, tuition to a good school, literacy or like Mitt Romney, millions and millions of dollars to play with.

[GG]

these weren't radical proposed social security changes. in fact, changing the retirement age has already been implemented. i'd have supported any of these changes.

 

I must be missing something in the medicare link. I see only that he doesn't believe spending increases were likely to go to zero. says nothing about fundamentally changing or removing this entitlement.

 

neither of these positions would put him in direct conflict with sanders. sanders is clearly more liberal but not very far removed in ideology. they are quantum leaps closer than Rockefeller and trump, for example.

 

This is another part of the thread where you get called an idiot. If any Dem would say those things, he'd be run out of the party.

 

Name the last Dem who's advocated reducing payroll taxes and allowing people to keep their retirement "savings" Name the last Dem who warned about SSI insolvency and looked to use real economics solve the problem?

 

What's so hard to understand his complaints about Medicare? He was laughing at Clinton's projections that costs weren't going to rise.

 

Moynihan was the last breed of Democrats who knew how to use a calculator.

[TakeYouToTasker]

You are wrong. http://www.history.com/topics/tammany-hallThe Irish had been part of government back when the blacks were still slaves.

The Irish were getting political jobs--no, not just police, teachers and firefighters--but all the incredibly large number of construction jobs--hello, Erie Canal? The civil rights movement finally took place just as cities had stopped their incredible growth. Which meant less urban jobs period.

Stop using Tammany Hall and NYC as evidence of government programs designed to help the Irish, and equating those with the broad base government programs designed for today. It's making you look like an idiot.

 

 

 

The high lighted section I can actually agree to somewhat, but I have to ask, where the heck did that culture come from?

It came as the outcome of the soft slavery of dependence. The desruction of the black family through the marginalization of the black male, as the government handout quickly replaced his paycheck which, and incentivized him not being in the home. This led to generations of black children growing up with no male role models, and led to a culture of procreation with no responsibility. With no responsibility to a family, those who used to become black men rather became man-children, and the surrounding poverty coupled with immaturity led mass quantities of them into crime, which led to a prison state in which nearly one half of all black males will be arrested by the time they turn 23.

 

This is the culture that modern liberalism created through it's misguided programs which incentivize the wrong sorts of human behavior. People will almost always do what they are incentivized to do.

 

Are they behaving like an oppressed minority? I'd say so.

They are not oppressed. They have as much opportunity as they want; they simply don't have a culture which values opportunity.

 

But, you have to admit, they came into this economy with basically nothing and many, many whites use their parents wealth to get ahead, whether its a car at 18, a stable family because dad had a job, tuition to a good school, literacy or like Mitt Romney, millions and millions of dollars to play with.

 

It all comes back to the nuclear family.

 

Liberals stole those things from them in the guise of trying to help them. Stop advocating policy which destroys the black family, and they'll slowly regain their footing and make progress. They're no worse or less talented, as a demographic, than the Irish, Italians, Jews, etc. They'll make their way, and ultimately they'll assimilate to hold more traditional American values again, as they used to, before liberalism sabotaged them.

Edited December 8, 2015 by TakeYouToTasker

[Tiberius]

Stop using Tammany Hall and NYC as evidence of government programs designed to help the Irish, and equating those with the broad base government programs designed for today. It's making you look like an idiot.

 

 

Obviously you don't want the patronage jobs included because it totally undermines your argument. But Irish got those jobs and blacks did not. If you think historical facts make my argument look bad that says more about you than me. As I showed with the 1944 strike whites fought tooth and nail to keep blacks out of jobs. Tammany was just one example of many. Trying to argue the Irish had it as bad as blacks in America is foolish