Trump Alone at the Top

[Tiberius]

You cited the chattel slavery of the antebellum South as the reason black Americans struggle more in poverty than their white counterparts.

 

I specifically asked you about other immigrant groups who survived in ghettos, and were the subject of extreme nativist discrimination, for generations; and why those groups have succeeded and integrated with in American society, while black Americans have struggled to do so.

 

And you respond with an anecdote about Budweiser?

Listen, its a pretty simple argument. Those who were not able to earn and accumulate wealth up to the end of Jim Crow--I never said it should be narrowed to blacks in antebellum south--are still poor in large measure today. I only said Mitt's ancestors made money back then, as an example of some families still rich. Families pass money down through the generations. Blacks couldn't really do that as much and it still shows.

 

Blacks had it way worse than other groups in America, that's why I showed you a rich German

 

What don't you understand?

[GG]

Listen, its a pretty simple argument. Those who were not able to earn and accumulate wealth up to the end of Jim Crow--I never said it should be narrowed to blacks in antebellum south--are still poor in large measure today. I only said Mitt's ancestors made money back then, as an example of some families still rich. Families pass money down through the generations. Blacks couldn't really do that as much and it still shows.

 

Blacks had it way worse than other groups in America, that's why I showed you a rich German

 

What don't you understand?

 

I'm guessing you don't have any Italian in your blood.

[birdog1960]

Given that blacks only made up 15.7% of the population in 1850, according to this document sourcing the 1850 US Census, I'd say that my numbers are more impactful than you're making them out to be.

of all the causes and issues that deserve attention, you appear to be among a group that has chose freed black slaveholders to investigate and study. wow. just wow.

 

White bread stepford wives NE suburbs?

 

Man, you elitist magna cum laude 15%'ers sure like to stand in judgement of everything.

you mentioned simple math ability in one of your posts. you could use some remedial work. no where near 15% of the us population graduate magna or summa cum laude from any university.

[TakeYouToTasker]

of all the causes and issues that deserve attention, you appear to be among a group that has chose freed black slaveholders to investigate and study. wow. just wow.

Or I've studied the American pre-Civil War era extensively.

 

However, I'd be curious to know why you don't find the study of freed blacks in the antebellum and pre-antebellum South to be worth of study?

[Deranged Rhino]

 

Blacks had it way worse than other groups in America, that's why I showed you a rich German

 

What don't you understand?

 

Yeah! Those Native Americans got such a better deal.

[Tiberius]

 

I'm guessing you don't have any Italian in your blood.

No way Italian experience was as bad as black in America

[GG]

No way Italian experience was as bad as black in America

 

You wouldn't be saying the same in 1890's

[TakeYouToTasker]

No way Italian experience was as bad as black in America

I'm guessing you don't have any Irish heritage either.

 

 

 

“If there had existed in the nineteenth century a computer able to digest all the appropriate data, it would have reported one city in the entire world where an Irish Catholic, under any circumstance, should never, ever, set foot. That city was Boston, Massachusetts. It was an American city with an intensely homogeneous Anglo-Saxon character, an inbred hostility toward people who were Irish, a fierce and violent revulsion against all things Roman Catholic, ... A city that rejected the Irish from the very start... .”

 

The anti-Irish climate of Boston became most virulent during the 1840s snd 50s when the Know Nothing political party gained power in the state. The Know Nothings were opposed to the immigration of foreigners, especially Irish Catholics, and believed that ”Americans must rule America.” Boston had attracted a large number of immigrants in the first half of the nineteenth century, the Irish in particular. By 1855 it was estimated that one of every three people living in the city were foreign-born Irish, (50,000 of a population of 160,000). It was so Irish that one Bostonian described the city as “the Dublin of America.” Such a large foreign population provided an ideal environment for the rise of the Know Nothing party.

In Massachusetts the Know Nothing party won a landslide victory in the state election of 1854. Two out of three voters in the state voted for the Know Nothing party, the party of intolerance and bigotry. Once in foffice they passed a series of laws aimed specifically at the Irish Catholic population of Massachusetts. These included mandatory daily reading of the King James Bible in the public schools; disbanding Irish militia units and confiscating their weapons: dismissing Irish state workers; deporting poor Irish back to Liverpool- 295 of them- because they were regarded as a drain on the public treasury. They also sought to deprive Roman Catholics of the right to vote and hold office. The Know Nothing party’s decline was as rapid as its rise. Its candidate suffered overwhelming defeat in the presidential election of 1856 and this signalled the end of the party’s popular appeal.

In the 1840s and 50s it was common for the Irish to encounter economic discrimination. In his classic study of Boston’s Irish immigrants, Oscar Handlin wrote, that “The tenuous character of their status drove the Irish into a constant search for better jobs and more secure employment. All aspired to skilled positions that would enable them to support their families alone. But the reluctance to employ Irishmen in any but the lowest capacities, added to their lack of captial and of training, rigorously excluded them from such occupations. Early attempts to ban foreigners from certain professions by law had failed, but by 1845 the caption “None need apply but Americans” was familiar in Boston newspaper advertisements. ... While other groups filtered into the city and were accepted, the Irish remained unneeded and unabsorbed.” Irish immigrants in Boston were stuck in an economic cul-de-sac and would remain there for much of the nineteenth century. Indeed, “the traumatic decades of humiliation and discrimination, of ridicule and contempt, of nativist slanders and Know Nothing bruises, became a permanent part of the Irish Catholic heritage in Boston.”

In the South the prejudice against the Irish took on a different twist. They were often compared with the slaves and were even called “!@#$s turned inside out” while the slaves were referred to as “smoked Irish.” An English traveller noted that both Irish and African Americans “were viewed as outcasts.” To be called an Irishman, noted the visitor, “is almost as great an insult as to be stigmatized as a !@#$ feller.” Some jobs were even thought to be too dangerous for the slave population whereas no job was too risky for the Irish. They were preferred to the slaves when it came to working on the docks because, as one official put it, “The !@#$s are worth too much to be risked here; if the Paddies are knocked overboard, or get their backs broke, nobody loses anything.”

In the 1850s anti-Irish prejudice took on a new dimension. Prior to this time the common belief was that despite their ignorance and brutishness, the Irish could become educated and civilized. In the 1850s the element of race entered the picture and it transformed the image of the Irish. The stereotype of the Irish as ignorant, brutal, and depraved was now said to be rooted in their very nature and no amount of education would cure this."

Edited December 7, 2015 by TakeYouToTasker

[Tiberius]

 

You wouldn't be saying the same in 1890's

Hmmmmm.....yes, but only up to a point. In the 1890's the supreme court legally segregated the black race. Italians were able vote on a larger scale than blacks, as most blacks were simply disenfranchised until the 1960's. So Italians could vote and blacks largely could not. Italians were in local government, benefitted from labor union membership, were not segregated in military and probably had more access to capital via loans from banks, though I don't know anything specific in that regard

[birdog1960]

Or I've studied the American pre-Civil War era extensively.

 

However, I'd be curious to know why you don't find the study of freed blacks in the antebellum and pre-antebellum South to be worth of study?

they are worthy of study. I thought we were talking about freed black slaveholders. we're talking about a grand total of 4000 nonvoting, relatively politically powerless people among nearly 400,00o0 mostly powerful ones. it would seem to me a topic whose study would be agenda inspired. i'll bet you can surmise what agenda I would attribute it to.

Edited December 7, 2015 by birdog1960

[Tiberius]

I'm guessing you don't have any Irish heritage either.

The Irish cop is a fixture in American history. They totally benefitted from access to government jobs and other avenues blacks had no access to

[TakeYouToTasker]

they are worthy of study. I thought we were talking about freed black slaveholders. it would seem to me a topic whose study would be agenda inspired. i'll bet you can surmise what agenda I would attribute it to.

Are freed black slave holders not freed blacks?

 

How could you possibly undertake a study of that era of American history, and when studying the outcomes of freed blacks in the South; not be blown away by a figure indicating that 43% of freed black heads of households in South Carolina were slave owners?

 

How could you not want to learn more about that?

 

Further, I'm curious about what you're hinting at as Louis Henry Gates Jr's motivations for study?

The Irish cop is a fixture in American history. They totally benefitted from access to government jobs and other avenues blacks had no access to

This is one of your dumbest posts ever.

 

Because 304 Irish immigrants were police officers in NY City in 1855, and that has been romanticized into folk lore 160 years later, that somehow means that actual Irish history didn't happen? It means that my ancestors weren't brought here on boats as indentured servants?

Edited December 7, 2015 by TakeYouToTasker

[Chef Jim]

No way Italian experience was as bad as black in America

 

My dad who grew up in Batavia in the 30's and 40's had to sneak to the "white" part of town to date a white girl. Got beat up for not being white. That's right his dad came from Italy.

[Doc]

bs argument through and through. carson is a moron that believes the world is 6000 years old. that alone disqualifies him for me.

 

no one mentioned Obama being the smartest guy in the room yet the question of his academic credentials came up here. but lets resolve that they are not an issue. they don't matter to you all on the right. correct? if so, we liberals can worry about his academic credentials (here's a hint: were not worried.)

 

The only bs is your ridiculous response. Again, who the F cares that he believes the earth is 6000 years old? It obviously hasn't stopped him from achieving enormous success. And he actually was born into poverty in a black family, unlike Barry who later used his blackness for political gain. He's a turd of the highest order. But since he's got that "D" next to his name, like Hilly, you'll excuse the fact that he's a sleaze bag.

 

As for Barry's credentials, he had none. He's not that smart, except politically, and Val does all his heavy lifting for him. He's a figurehead, plain and simple.

[birdog1960]

Are freed black slave holders not freed blacks?

 

How could you possibly undertake a study of that era of American history, and when studying the outcomes of freed blacks in the South; not be blown away by a figure indicating that 43% of freed black heads of households in South Carolina were slave owners?

 

How could you not want to learn more about that?

 

because I do not believe that blacks and white are anywhere near equally culpable for African slavery. I find that contention ridiculous. here's one opinion on gate's stance: http://socialistworker.org/2010/05/06/why-gates-is-wrong-on-reparations. it seems horowitz' motivations are more transparent and I suspect more prevelant among those that study this issue. both seem to be aligned against slave reparations which have not yet occurred. why gates holds this stance is conjecture. I find gates stance difficult to rationalize and frankly, bizarre. at any rate, if Obama was such a race baiter would he not have pushed harder for reparations?

 

The only bs is your ridiculous response. Again, who the F cares that he believes the earth is 6000 years old? It obviously hasn't stopped him from achieving enormous success. And he actually was born into poverty in a black family, unlike Barry who later used his blackness for political gain. He's a turd of the highest order. But since he's got that "D" next to his name, like Hilly, you'll excuse the fact that he's a sleaze bag.

 

As for Barry's credentials, he had none. He's not that smart, except politically, and Val does all his heavy lifting for him. He's a figurehead, plain and simple.

I care. it shows blatant disregard for the scientific method and rational thinking. "enormous success" does not equate to intelligence.

 

now let's turn to Obama. what proof do you have? I've produced proof of his credentials. where is your proof that he has none? and once again, why does it matter if you are not willing to judge conservative candidates on their academic records?

Edited December 7, 2015 by birdog1960

[IDBillzFan]

"enormous success" does not equate to intelligence

 

No more than college degrees, anyway.

[TakeYouToTasker]

because I do not believe that blacks and white are anywhere near equally culpable for African slavery. I find that contention ridiculous.

I don't know of a single person who ever made that contention. I certainly haven't made it.

 

I simply begun to counter gatorman's argument that chattel slavery in the antebellum South is the reason black Americans, as a demographic, lag behind on the economic ladder.

 

 

 

here's one opinion on gate's stance: http://socialistworker.org/2010/05/06/why-gates-is-wrong-on-reparations. it seems horowitz' motivations are more transparent and I suspect more prevelant among those that study this issue. both seem to be aligned against slave reparations which have not yet occurred. why gates holds this stance is conjecture. I find gates stance difficult to rationalize and frankly, bizarre. at any rate, if Obama was such a race baiter would he not have pushed harder for reparations?

I'm not really interested in discussing reparations as a part of this current discussion, though if you want to start a separate thread about the issue, I'll certainly participate.

 

My question about Gate's motivation was because you made a thinly veiled accusation of racism because of my own curiosities.

[3rdnlng]

cool. so at least in your case we can stop the silliness about whether Obama was a top student or aided by affirmative action etc. it's moot. LA? what about you since you've posted several times already about it in this thread. does it matter to you what academic qualifications the conservative candidates have? or is all this Obama transcript stuff just a ruse?

what has trump accomplished? grant posted a link that showed he'd have done better financially by investing his inheritance in a spyder than all his wheeling and dealing. outside of underperforming the s and p what else has he accomplished?

http://www.thefamouspeople.com/profiles/donald-trump-3378.php

 

I said that "Trump has actually done some things". Feel free to click on the link and determine if Trump's experience out trumps Obama's community action experience. You know that job he had bullying lenders into making loans to people in schitty areas who couldn't afford to pay them back.

[GG]

Back to topic on hand. After dropping behind Cruz in Iowa, Trump elects to go full gatorman and calls for a full ban on Muslim immigrants.

[meazza]

Back to topic on hand. After dropping behind Cruz in Iowa, Trump elects to go full gatorman and calls for a full ban on Muslim immigrants.

 

And skeletor agrees.

 

http://www.mediaite.com/online/ann-coulter-on-muslim-entry-ban-proposal-go-trump-go/