Blood is on the NRA's hands

[IDBillzFan]

Is that why the mass killings you're so concerned about tend to occur in states with extremely severe gun control laws?

 

Does France have tighter gun control laws than the US?

Not enough. We must ban all guns and ensure all citizens are unarmed.

 

C'mon...Grant. Just admit it and you'll feel better.

[Chef Jim]

 

You heard a story about a home being invaded and your house had a break-in when you weren't there. So now you have guns and look at your neighbors suspiciously enough to call them "animals." Dude, consider the possibility that you are the dangerous one in your situation. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know you, don't lose your ****. I'm not saying you're going to kill anybody but listen to how you sound like you're capable of killing someone if you get scared enough.

 

In your imagination, a burglar is a group of powerful criminals who are dead set on a mission to terrorize you because they really want your TV. Okay, fine. But what if a drunk teenager tries to break into your house at night for a stupid prank and gets murdered because you're already jumpy? Is that impossible? Maybe it's impossible because you have good self control and you would never let that happen. But imagine someone in a similar situation who is not as level-headed as yourself. Are all burglars deserving of death? Even if you have the gall to say "yes, anyone dumb enough to burglarize deserves to die so I can protect myself" less gun control means it's also more likely that your boogeyman has a gun. "They'd find a way to get guns anyway and now they have a gun and I don't." That's so many steps of delusional paranoid hypotheticals. Home invasions are generally unlikely, statistically. The Bureau of Justice has stats that show it at <1% of homicides per year. I'm not saying home invasion is impossible, I am saying it is not a good enough justification considering the consequences from having guns widely accessible leads to Sandy Hook and the countless other tragedies. If you're so worried about your house being broken into, there are other ways to keep it safe.

 

The focus should be to make it less likely for anyone to have a gun. It is possible. We as a country have not tried to make it harder across the board for everyone to have a gun and that's where we need to be thinking.

Awful lot of stupid in this post.

[Rob's House]

 

I mean, we can go march if you want, let me know your schedule. It's not about me, I'm not asking you to vote for me, I'm just some idiot arguing on the internet like anyone. If more people agreed about gun control, we'd find more solutions. ExiledInIllinois just posted a story about Republicans in Congress blocking gun violence research. Just getting more research and considering it more would be one step. Guns are a big sprawling problem, but there are steps that can be taken.

 

If you're expecting some magic wand fix tonight, well, I hate to say it guys but we're probably not going to change the world tonight on the TwoBillsDrive sub-forum. But I have enough optimism in people in general (not a lot but enough) that I think if people talk and consider it, they might come to a pretty obvious and common sense realization: that guns are obviously a major problem and should be addressed.

I don't expect you to fix the problem. I do expect someone who takes to a public forum to rant about an issue to have at least a vague outline for the action they'd like to see taken.

 

Saying you want more gun control isn't saying much of anything because no one really has any idea what that means. But apparently you're not even calling for that; you're ostensibly calling for people to form an attitude in favor of some undefined movement as long as it falls under the heading of "gun control."

 

To take it a step further, even if one were to accept what you're proposing (to the extent you're proposing anything) you've offered little if anything to support your theory. I don't just mean you're lacking empirical evidence; you haven't even outlined a theoretical framework explaining why you think your solution would be effective. Instead you've presumed its effectiveness out of hand, jumped over rationale altogether, and have gone straight to moralizing and ad hominem attacks.

 

Put differently, you've substituted moral superiority for logic and reason.

[keepthefaith]

Chicago prohibited handgun ownership for city residents until latter 2010. The law changed to allow handguns but there were some controls in place including a permitting process that could take 4 months to complete. Murder rates have been essentially flat for the past 10 years. In other words, allowing guns did not cause the murder rate to rise. Actually if you go further back than 10 years and adjust for population growth, you could argue that the murder rate has slightly declined since allowing handguns.

 

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2010/0702/Chicago-passes-revised-gun-law-allowing-handgun-ownership

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Chicago

[Dante]

Another day, another mass shooting. What will it take for this country to recognize it has a gun problem? It's going to take people who hate admitting they're wrong to admit they may be wrong about gun control.

 

Obviously I never post in this subforum, I've checked enough times to know it's little more than an echo chamber for conservative talk radio points. DC Tom, LABillzFan, and the other thought leaders here slap each other on the back and never have to consider they may be wrong. Well, conservatives do an admirable job of stubbornly ignoring reality. I'll grant you that in general I think people only preach to the choir so I'm going to go against the grain and try to communicate to NRA sympathizers here.

 

That's why I'm going to be blunt and straight to the point. If this post gets taken down or banned because I'm clearly posting when I'm angry, so be it.

 

If you're an NRA supporter: these shootings are on YOU. That's right, you are implicit. Your actions are partly responsible for these tragedies. Your selfish, delusional, ignorant fantasies of being a cowboy hero have led to this current reality of America where mass shootings are becoming a daily occurrence. You are part of the problem that prevents gun legislation. And since there is no foreseeable opportunity for legislation and an end to the madness, at the very least, you should feel bad and consider changing your stupid views.

 

This year alone, there have been more mass shootings than days in the year. These are not "isolated incidents" like the NRA likes to pretend. You need to take a long look in the mirror and realize how badly your attitudes affect the rest of the country. It's absurd how easily accessible weapons are available to psychopaths. Who's to blame for that?

 

...

 

"Guns don't kill people, people kill people."

Easily the dumbest defense. Guns kill people. None of these mass murders happen without the ease of guns.

 

"If we outlawed guns, criminals would find a way to get them anyway."

So instead let's make it easier for "them" to get them by having them widely available? How's that working out? The reality is, because gun manufacturers have made SO MANY of these portable death machines, OBVIOUSLY they will not go away overnight. But legislation is the first step; rooting them out is the second step. It's like saying that because withdrawals are bad, you should just keep doing heroin forever.

 

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun."

Where are all the good guys with guns then? You guys have been asleep at the wheel if you're supposed to be the ones preventing these. Nevermind that this quip doesn't sync up with reality at all; the amount of times a shooter has been stopped by an armed civilian have been so few that it's little more than an anomaly. Stats show it's far more likely that having a gun in your home makes it more likely for a gun death to occur in the home than it being used in a "positive" way, but I'm sure Obama just made up those stats to scare you, though.

 

"It's a mental health issue."

Hey good point, social services should be expanded in this country. Unfortunately that would mean higher taxes! Well, we know which segment of the population will be blocking any efforts to improve this then. Even if we did somehow improve access to mental health — which won't happen — the first realization people would come to would be "oh well obviously we should get rid of guns, that's an easy one."

 

"The government fears armed citizens!"

So incredibly delusional. The government taps all your communication, engages in drone warfare on a regular basis, etc. etc., but they're afraid of your sidearm? Get over yourself.

 

"It's for protection!"

It's for your absurd fantasies. Protect you from what, home invasion? Sorry, that's not nearly good enough of a justification. Guns are overwhelmingly used to attack, not defend. And your possessions are meaningless. Nobody wants to steal your DVD-VCR combo.

 

"But the shooting today happened in California, which has stronger gun laws! See? Gun laws don't work!"

The laws are not strong enough anywhere. Waiting periods, background checks, written tests. It's not enough. We need to get there on a nation-wide level because gun sales are still through the roof at gun shows and still pass state borders mostly with impunity.

 

"Way to politicize a tragedy."

If we can't talk about this now, then when? When it happens to someone you know?

 

"But I like hunting!"

At least this one is honest. The reality is your hobby sucks. If your daddy got you into hunting and that's how you bonded, your daddy sucks. Hunt with a bow & arrow, or a knife, or even a musket if you want. Go ahead and keep the muskets.

 

...

 

If you're an NRA member and you read all this, you're probably pissed and looking to score points by somehow proving me wrong. Go ahead and shoot the messenger, I don't care. Call me whatever names you want, like that makes what I'm saying not true.

 

Maybe in time you'll consider that these tragedies are preventable and that we need to at least "TRY" reducing access to guns. That does not happen until the NRA has less power in our government. And that doesn't happen until their base starts to turn on them; until gun sales stop GOING UP whenever there's a mass shooting. That's why I'm reaching out.

 

The NRA needs to be recognized for what it is — an enabler of terrorism. We need to stop dancing around this hard truth just because we've been living the lie for so long. White male sociopaths with guns are terrorists, plain and simple.

 

If you're a gun owner, if you're one of the fools that buys into the NRA rhetoric so they can keep making money off of your delusional and fearful fantasies, the best way to send your "thoughts and prayers" to the victims of these shootings would be to take your gun and shoot yourself. Go ahead and do it today, even. At least then the blood on your hands can be your own.

Let's disarm the law abiding citizens. That's the solution. That way only the criminals and the government (often one and the same) will have guns. Sounds great to me! What could go wrong? I'm sure the ghost's that existed under Stalin and Hitler would love you.

Edited December 3, 2015 by Dante

[truth on hold]

Let's disarm the law abiding citizens. That's the solution. That way only the criminals and the government (often one and the same) will have guns. Sounds great to me! What could go wrong? I'm sure the ghost's that existed under Stalin and Hitler would love you.

Since the weaponry available to governments today is far superior to that of WW2 era, lets provide all "law abiding" citizens with new weaponry that will help even the playing field against this impending government assault on its citizenry. Drones, nukes, laser guided surface to air missiles....get all 3, makes a great holiday gift! Edited December 3, 2015 by JTSP

[FireChan]

Since the weaponry available to governments today is far superior to that of WW2 era, lets provide all "law abiding" citizens with new weaponry that will help even the playing field against this impending government assault on its citizenry. Drones, nukes, laser guided surface to air missiles....get all 3, makes a great holiday gift!

Yes, because many citizens can afford to buy a nuke.

[truth on hold]

Yes, because many citizens can afford to buy a nuke.

Can't afford nukes? Try drones and chemical weapons. Buy a drone and get a free bag of sarin to go with it! Makes the perfect stocking stuffer! Edited December 3, 2015 by JTSP

[drinkTHEkoolaid]

It was global wa- sorry, climate change.

It amazes me this idiot rambles incoherently about blaming the NRA and ignores the fact the TERRORISTS murdered a bunch of innocent civilians.

 

Ak47a are illegal in California. So you think terrorists care if their weapon of choice is legal or not? They could have done just as much damage with shotguns, home made bombs or driving their SUV into a crowd. Its irrelevant. A weapon is just a tool.

 

Maybe we should tell at the OP and blame him and his views being responsible for the anti gun culture in liberal states and work environments where these poor victims were unable to defend themselves.

 

I have never in my life owned a gun.

 

Currently I am going through Erie county for a NY pistol permit. I will not be a helpless victim. My wife is also going through the ridiculous process with me. Since I Probably have another 9-12 months to wait I will probably buy a shotgun in the mean time. I will make sure I am able to protect my wife and children from people who wish to harm us.

 

&#33;@#&#036; you for wanting to deny me my 2nd ammendment right. The 2nd ammendment guarantees the others can exist. Again I've never yet to this point owned a gun but I have learned and evolved my opinions to realize their importance as I have gotten older.

 

And ask the cherokee, sioux, apache etc how it worked out for them trusting the government to look out for their best interests and surrender their weapons

[Observer]

It amazes me this idiot rambles incoherently about blaming the NRA and ignores the fact the TERRORISTS murdered a bunch of innocent civilians.

 

Ak47a are illegal in California. So you think terrorists care if their weapon of choice is legal or not? They could have done just as much damage with shotguns, home made bombs or driving their SUV into a crowd. Its irrelevant. A weapon is just a tool.

 

Maybe we should tell at the OP and blame him and his views being responsible for the anti gun culture in liberal states and work environments where these poor victims were unable to defend themselves.

 

I have never in my life owned a gun.

 

Currently I am going through Erie county for a NY pistol permit. I will not be a helpless victim. My wife is also going through the ridiculous process with me. Since I Probably have another 9-12 months to wait I will probably buy a shotgun in the mean time. I will make sure I am able to protect my wife and children from people who wish to harm us.

 

!@#$ you for wanting to deny me my 2nd ammendment right. The 2nd ammendment guarantees the others can exist. Again I've never yet to this point owned a gun but I have learned and evolved my opinions to realize their importance as I have gotten older.

 

And ask the cherokee, sioux, apache etc how it worked out for them trusting the government to look out for their best interests and surrender their weapons

 

You want a gun to protect yourself from what exactly? The US Army turning inward? Or some sort of home invasion?

 

Do you think having a firearm in your house makes it more or less likely that someone in your house will be hurt by a firearm?

 

By the way, I am fine with your right to own a firearm, but most people's rationale for wanting one doesn't make sense. If I ever got a firearm, it would just be because I want one. I know it would increase the risk of an accident in my home. I once had our elderly dog walker come into our house at 11pm confused about the day he was supposed to walk our dog--would I have shot him? I hope not but let's just say that my nerves were pretty high strung that night and if I'd have had a handgun, it would have been in my hand.

 

And owning a gun would not stop the US Army from marching down my street.

Edited December 3, 2015 by Observer

[drinkTHEkoolaid]

 

You want a gun to protect yourself from what exactly? The US Army turning inward? Or some sort of home invasion?

 

Do you think having a firearm in your house makes it more or less likely that someone in your house will be hurt by a firearm?

 

By the way, I am fine with your right to own a firearm, but most people's rationale for wanting one doesn't make sense. If I ever got a firearm, it would just be because I want one. I know it would increase the risk of an accident in my home. I once had our elderly dog walker come into our house at 11pm confused about the day he was supposed to walk our dog--would I have shot him? I hope not but let's just say that my nerves were pretty high strung that night and if I'd have had a handgun, it would have been in my hand.

 

And owning a gun would not stop the US Army from marching down my street.

Owning a gun is a lot of responsibility that requires sound judgement, respect and good decision making. It is not to be taken lightly and needs to be thought out and you must understand any applicable laws and what qualifies as justification for use of said gun Edited December 3, 2015 by drinkTHEkoolaid

[Tiberius]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/03/us/how-often-do-mass-shootings-occur-on-average-every-day-records-show.html?_r=0

 

 

Mass shooting a day!

[Observer]

Owning a gun is a lot of responsibility that requires sound judgement, respect and good decision making. It is not to be taken lightly and needs to be thought out and you must understand any applicable laws and what qualifies as justification for use of said gun

 

Gun violence here is much worse and more prevalent than in our European peers, who are the countries we are closest to. Why do you think we're so much different?

 

My theory is access and violent exposure. It's part of the price we pay for having easy access and a cultural movie/game obsession with violence.

 

I love myself a Tarantino movie as much as anyone and I've played Grand Theft Auto and carjacked 1000 cars, so I admit to being part of the problem so I'm just asking the question--not pointing fingers.

Edited December 3, 2015 by Observer

[FireChan]

Can't afford nukes? Try drones and chemical weapons. Buy a drone and get a free bag of sarin to go with it! Makes the perfect stocking stuffer!

Drones are already legal and our government doesn't have chemical weapons.

Edited December 3, 2015 by FireChan

[Rob's House]

 

Gun violence here is much worse and more prevalent than in our European peers, who are the countries we are closest to. Why do you think we're so much different?

 

My theory is access and violent exposure. It's part of the price we pay for having easy access and a cultural movie/game obsession with violence.

 

I love myself a Tarantino movie as much as anyone and I've played Grand Theft Auto and carjacked 1000 cars, so I admit to being part of the problem so I'm just asking the question--not pointing fingers.

Take gang-related violence out of the equation and see what those numbers look like.

[GG]

 

Gun violence here is much worse and more prevalent than in our European peers, who are the countries we are closest to. Why do you think we're so much different?

 

My theory is access and violent exposure. It's part of the price we pay for having easy access and a cultural movie/game obsession with violence.

 

I love myself a Tarantino movie as much as anyone and I've played Grand Theft Auto and carjacked 1000 cars, so I admit to being part of the problem so I'm just asking the question--not pointing fingers.

Guns have been around for centuries. Crazy has been around for millennia. Yet this spate of fun violence is fairly recent.

 

Your last paragraph is more spot on.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

 

Oh, and climate change. CLIMATE CHANGE.

Edited December 3, 2015 by joesixpack

[Alaska Darin]

 

Gun violence here is much worse and more prevalent than in our European peers, who are the countries we are closest to. Why do you think we're so much different?

 

Because Europe doesn't have the violent gang/drug culture that we enjoy here (though it is starting to spring up). The reality of violent crime in America shows that if you're not involved with drugs or gangs that your chances of being a victim are on par with the average European.

 

But that doesn't make money or curry votes, so we're left with morons like the OP who think prohibition of the most regulated item in the country will make the problem go away, just like it has with drugs.

[Chef Jim]

 

You want a gun to protect yourself from what exactly? The US Army turning inward? Or some sort of home invasion?

 

Do you think having a firearm in your house makes it more or less likely that someone in your house will be hurt by a firearm?

 

By the way, I am fine with your right to own a firearm, but most people's rationale for wanting one doesn't make sense. If I ever got a firearm, it would just be because I want one. I know it would increase the risk of an accident in my home. I once had our elderly dog walker come into our house at 11pm confused about the day he was supposed to walk our dog--would I have shot him? I hope not but let's just say that my nerves were pretty high strung that night and if I'd have had a handgun, it would have been in my hand.

 

And owning a gun would not stop the US Army from marching down my street.

What is "most people's rational" for owning a gun?

[Thirdborn]

Concerning those that are blaming ISIS ....... if I worked somewhere for 5 years, and then shot it up and killed other employees, would you blame the mafia, as I am Italian American?